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CNN This Morning

Biden Meets with Nordic Leaders in Finland; Defense Secretary Austin Sits Down with CNN After NATO Summit; "This is a National Security Issue," Defense Secretary Austin Says in Reference to Working with Tuberville on Military Promotions; Russia's War on Ukraine; General: Cluster Munitions Have Not Been Used Yet; Chinese Hackers Breached E-Mail Accounts of U.S. Officials; Interview with Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency Former Director, Department Of Homeland Security Former Senior Official, and Krebs Stamos Group Partner Chris Krebs. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired July 13, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: House Democrats are calling on Republicans to investigate their own so-called whistleblower after he was charged with arms trafficking and working as an agent for China. House Representative Committee Ranking Member Jamie Raskin will join us live as he pushes for that investigation.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is now emerging that Chinese hackers breached the e-mail accounts of U.S. officials, including the commerce secretary. This hour of "CNN This Morning" starts now.

MATTINGLY: Well, good morning, everyone.

Right now, President Biden is closing out his high-stakes trip to Europe with a show of force in Russia's backyard. He is meeting with Nordic leaders in Finland, the NATO alliance's newest member. That comes after a crucial NATO Summit where Biden made a solemn vow that the United States and its allies will not waiver in their support for Ukraine. A short time ago, President Biden said NATO has, "Never been stronger, as Sweden also prepares to join the alliance." Mr. Biden is set to take questions later this morning at a news conference.

BROWN: Meantime, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin just sat down for an exclusive interview with our very own Wolf Blitzer following the NATO Summit where they talked about Ukraine's future and NATO.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR AND "SITUATION ROOM" HOST: From a military standpoint, Mr. Secretary, how close is Ukraine to meeting NATO standards?

LLOYD AUSTIN, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: Well, there are a number of things that will have to be done, as you know. They -- a big part of their inventory is legacy equipment. And so, in terms of training and equipping, there's work to be done, but we're doing that work as we are helping them as they fight this war. And so, things have been done up to this point. There's more that will need to be done to ensure that they have a full complement of capability, so.

BLITZER: So, you have no doubt that after the war Ukraine will become a member of NATO?

AUSTIN: I have no doubt that that will happen. And we heard just about every -- all of the countries in the room say as much, and I think that was reassuring to President Zelenskyy. But there are other things that have to happen as well, you know, judicial reform, you know, things that make sure that the democracy is in good shape. And so, those things will take place over time, so.

BLITZER: How much time do you think it will take after the war? Assuming the war ends. God willing it will end someday. How much time will it take for NATO to join -- for NATO to welcome Ukraine as a full member?

AUSTIN: I won't speculate on that, Wolf. I will just say that all of the countries that I have witnessed are interested in moving as quickly as possible.

BLITZER: Do you think all 31 members of NATO right now want Ukraine in?

AUSTIN: I think it will be 32 by that time, but I --

BLITZER: With Sweden?

AUSTIN: Right. But I do believe that everyone wants Ukraine to be onboard.

BLITZER: As I said, Sweden is now set to join NATO. How is it, from your analysis, and you got good analysts, how is Putin reacting to this expansion of NATO?

AUSTIN: Well, I -- I'm sure Putin's very concerned. This is probably something that he didn't expect to happen, although President Biden warned him of this at the very beginning. But, you know, he's brought NATO closer to his doorstep. And so, you know, if you are him, you'd certainly be concerned about what you're seeing.

But countries like Sweden and Finland bring a lot to the alliance, and we are happy to have them onboard. You know, I was just in Sweden a couple of weeks ago. I got a chance to spend time with the minister of defense and visit some of their troops, look at their capabilities, it -- they will bring value to the alliance right away. And it's a strong democracy, Wolf, and that's really the most important point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And CNN anchor and host of the "Situation Room" Wolf Blitzer joins us now. Wolf, such an important interview with the defense secretary, really illuminating. And he also talked to you about the controversial decision to send cluster munitions to Ukraine. What stood out to you? BLITZER: He thought it was really important that the United States provide these cluster munitions or these cluster bombs to Ukraine. The Russians have been using these cluster bombs against Ukrainians and they have been devastating. The Russians invaded Ukraine.

He points out that Ukraine needs these cluster bombs to defend themselves, to defend their territory, to defend their people. The Russians have been hitting civilian targets, as we all know, residential apartment buildings, schools, hospitals, and these cluster munitions will help the Ukrainians defend themselves. So, he was very supportive. And he said that even when he was an active-duty military personnel before he became defense secretary, he personally dealt with cluster munitions. He knows all about them and they can be used in a safe and secure way. That's what he was saying.

[08:05:00]

MATTINGLY: You know, Wolf, you also spoke to Secretary Austin about Senator Tommy Tuberville's block on military appointments. What did he have to say?

BLITZER: He was very, very disappointed in Senator Tuberville. He said this is a national security issue. What Tuberville, in effect, is doing is undermining U.S. national security. I've got a clip from the interview. Let me play this clip, this exchange I had with the defense secretary on Tuberville. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Republican Senator Tommy Tuberville is blocking military promotions right now, confirmations, in the Senate, because he wants to protest the pentagon's policy of ensuring abortion access for women who serve in the U.S. military. Is Senator Tuberville now actively undermining U.S. national security?

AUSTIN: Well, thanks, Wolf. This is a national security issue. You know, we just talked about -- we sat down a couple of minutes ago, what a complex environment this is, you know, around the world, quite frankly. We see the tough things that we're dealing within here in Europe as we continue to provide support to Ukraine in its efforts to testified its sovereign territory. We're working hard to make sure we keep the right balance in the Indo-Pacific and strengthen our alliances, and we need leaders to be able to do that.

This is a national security issue. It's a readiness issue. And we shouldn't kid ourselves, right? I think any member of the Senate Armed Services Committee knows that.

BLITZER: Senator Tuberville said he's only spoken to you about this once, that was back in February. Why not have a conversation with him and get this resolved?

AUSTIN: I will, Wolf. I certainly will engage -- continue to engagement, yes.

BLITZER: But you're not doing it right now. I mean, the last conversation was in February.

AUSTIN: It was in March, end of March. But, yes, I'll engage.

BLITZER: You will talk to him and your message to him will be?

AUSTIN: He needs to lift the holes, Wolf. We -- this is a national security issue. It's a readiness issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And it's going to be the first time, if Tuberville continues to do what he is doing, that there won't be a commandant for the U.S. Marine Corps. In about 160 years, there's always been a commandant. But if he can't get one confirmed by the U.S. Senate, that's going to be a major, major problem for the U.S. Marine Corps as well.

So, there's a lot going on right now. The secretary of defense has a lot on his plate. A lot going on. Lots of problems involving NATO and the alliance and all of that have. Certainly, problems involving China and Taiwan. Problems around the world. So, he's got his hands full, he made that clear to me during the course of our interview.

BROWN: Yes, and you mentioned China. What else did he say about that?

BLITZER: It's really significant what's going on. The U.S. is going to make sure that there is a dialogue, if at all possible, with China. He says, the U.S. sees China as a competitor, not necessarily as an enemy or anything along those lines. He wants to try to re-establish direct communications, not only between himself and his Chinese counterparts, but with other U.S. officials and Chinese officials to make sure there is no blunders out there, especially because of all of the interceptions that have been going in and around Taiwan.

This is a very, very critically important military-related issue for the U.S. defense department. He is worried about what's going on. A lot of U.S. military personnel are worried. They want to make sure that what's going on in Taiwan does not explode into some sort of full-scale war. And he is sending these messages directly to the Chinese leadership.

BROWN: All right. Really, wide ranging interview with the defense secretary. Wolf, thank you for bringing that to us. And you can see more of Wolf's exclusive interview with Secretary Austin tonight at 6:00 p.m. eastern only on CNN.

MATTINGLY: Now, to another CNN exclusive this morning, a Ukrainian general speaking to CNN from the battlefield weighing in on the state of the fighting in eastern Ukraine and the U.S. decision to send cluster munitions. CNN's Alex Marquardt is live in Dnipro, Ukraine with more.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Phil. We sat down earlier today with General Oleksandr Tarnavskyi. He is in charge of part of the southern front, arguably, the most important part of this counteroffensive as Ukraine tries to split that Russian occupied land bridge that connect Crimea with Russia. He is very optimistic about what these clusters can do on the battlefield. He says that Russian troops are going to be very afraid. They may, in fact, vacate areas he thinks where they could be most effective. He is keenly aware, he says, of how dangerous they are for civilians. And says that in line with the promise that was made to the United States, that they will not be used in heavily populated areas and they will keep track of where these cluster munitions are used for future de-mining operations. Here's a little bit more of what the general had to say, take a listen.

[08:10:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GEN. OLEKSANDR TARNAVSKYI, COMMANDER OF THE TAVIA JOINT FORCES OPERATION (through translator): In general, this is a very powerful weapon.

MARQUARDT: Have you used them already? And how much, do you think, they're going to change the fight?

TARNAVSKYI (through translator): We just got them. We haven't used them yet but they can radically change the battlefield. Because the enemy also understands that with getting this ammunition, we will have an advantage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: And, Phil, after the U.S. made this announcement that they would be sending cluster munitions to Ukraine, Russia responded quite angrily saying that they would be forced to respond in kind. We heard Former President Dmitry Medvedev, now a senior national security official saying that Russia should now empty its arsenal of what he called these inhumane weapons. Of course, as you know, Russia has been using these cluster munitions their own since the very beginning of this war, and that was one of the main arguments that the U.S. made in sending these cluster munitions to Ukraine.

As for the progress on the counteroffensive, General Tarnavskyi says that it has been slow. He says, there has been some moderate success, but he blames the months of preparation that the Russians had to lay out dense mine fields, and really the fierce attacks that they have been carrying out since this counteroffensive began about a month ago for the slow progress that Ukraine is making. Phil.

BROWN: I'm curious, Alex, given the time that you've been spending on the ground there. I mean, the Biden administration has given Ukraine assurances that it will join NATO when the war ends, and has given it new security guarantees until that happens. What is the reaction on the ground there to that?

MARQUARDT: Well, Pam, I think it's mixed. You know, they are hailing this summit as a success. We know that they are coming back to -- these leaders are coming back to Ukraine with less than they had hoped for. They really wanted a concrete timeline, a map of how and when they would get to join NATO. They did not get that. So, we heard President Zelenskyy going into the summit, saying that it was unprecedented and absurd. His tone softened over the following 48 hours as it became clear that he was going to be getting significant short and long-term aid packages and security guarantees. We saw the G7 promise long-term security guarantees and other kinds of support.

So, they are hailing this as a success, but it is less than what they hoped for. Eventually, they will join NATO. And that's what they are really grabbing on to, is this real assurance that once this war ends, that they will join NATO, and they'll join it in a streamlined fashion because the process was essentially reduced from two steps to one step. So, they are saying it was a success, but it was certainly less than they had hoped when they went to Vilnius. Pam, Phil.

MATTINGLY: All right. Alex Marquardt live in Ukraine, thanks so much.

BROWN: The Biden administration is on defense this morning after we're now learning Chinese hackers breached the U.S. Commerce Department in an apparent spying campaign against about two dozen U.S. organizations, that's what two sources familiar with the matter tell CNN. And one source says, the hackers assessed Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo e-mail account.

The attack is part of a wider breach the White House and Microsoft acknowledged late Tuesday. Two sources familiar with the matter say, the hackers also targeted e-mail accounts at the House of Representatives. It is unclear which offices or if their attempts were successful. Here is what the White House's John Kirby said about it just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL COORDINATOR FOR STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS: We are, obviously, taking a fresh look at our systems and our Cloud computing capabilities to make sure we can be more resilient in the future. Our networks are attacked every single day by cyber actors, state and non-state actors all around the world. It is not uncommon for some of those state actors, Russia, Iran, North Korea, China, to be a part of that process. But again, I don't want to get ahead of where we are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: And joining us now former director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency Chris Krebs. He was fired by Former President Trump via tweet after calling the 2020 election the most secure in American history.

All right. Chris, so help us better understand what this means. How widespread is this attack and how sensitive is the information that has been exposed?

CHRIS KREBS, FORMER DIRECTOR OF CYBERSECURITY AND INFRASTRUCTURE SECURITY AGENCY, FORMER SENIOR OFFICIAL, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, AND PARTNER, KREBS STAMOS GROUP: Well, good morning. Thanks for having me on. Well, I think the good news here is that it was a fairly short duration attack. My understanding is that they obtained or first accessed accounts at state department in May of this year. It was discovered in mid-June and promptly notified to Microsoft and Microsoft was able to close out the access.

And as you've mentioned, it's only a handful of accounts. However, as you point out, the Secretary Raimondo's account was included in the compromise set in as some of your prior guests had mentions, talks with China are at an all-time high right now, concluding Treasury Secretary Yellen's visit in a promise, in a discussion about the Secretary Raimondo's visit to China.

Why? Sanctions. There is the Xinjiang sanctions. There are a number of issues that the White House is looking at with foreign direct investment in childcare and cracking down there, their semi-conductors and A.I. So, the -- this group went after very sensitive information from a diplomatic and trade perspective.

[08:15:00]

I think that they probably were not as successful as they would have liked. But it does highlight a number of issues with the government's dependency on large technology companies and third-party providers.

MATTINGLY: Chris, it's a great point. Some people might be wondering why the Commerce Secretary, what Raimondo and her team have been leading on in terms of export controls, in terms of all the issues you laid out on the sanctions front has been critical, in terms of the U.S. kind of economic warfare to some degree that they've had with China. Access to emails of a cabinet secretary, is that actually information that is -- that they can glean intelligence from?

KREBS: Well, any information can be intelligence, it doesn't have to be classified. Diplomatic trade negotiation, sanctioned discussions can all be flowing over unclassified channels. I think they're I -- look, I don't know how much email Secretary Raimondo uses. I've known secretary, cabinet secretaries in the past that completely rejected the use of email or used to only minimally.

So, there is some hope that there was not a great deal of information here. But again, I do want to highlight that we are increasingly putting our trust in private sector providers of services. This isn't like the old days, where you could maintain your own email with the server down the hall. Governments, banks, critical infrastructure, they're trusting the private sector companies like Microsoft, to get it right.

And time and time again, we see that perhaps, there's an asymmetrical balance that the adversary has over a standalone private sector company. So, I expect that this will not be a one-day news cycle. I know Congress and the White House are asking very uncomfortable questions. And I suspect Microsoft will be providing some pretty awkward answers.

BROWN: Just to understand the scope of this. I mean, do you think that we know the breadth of it? Or do you think that there's still possibility that there are still consequences of the hack that Microsoft or the government neither, might not even be aware of yet?

KREBS: Absolutely. I think that there are some fundamental questions like, how did this happen? When did this happen? You really have to consider the signing key that the Chinese operatives were able to obtain as a crown jewel. This was a money printing equivalent. This was a passport printing equivalent, as I saw in an article this morning. This was a trusted certificate that said, hey, I'm from Microsoft, you can trust me.

And that allowed them the Chinese actors to print their own access into email accounts. So, we've got to figure out how it happened, when it happened, how broadly it was? And I think there's another shoe to drop there and did they steal other keys? So, again, like I said, a lot of uncomfortable questions. I hope that we will get to the bottom of this but unfortunately, it may be that just the information the data is not there. In the Chinese where operatives were quiet in skilled.

BROWN: All right, Chris Krebs, really disturbing. Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Yes.

BROWN: FBI Director Christopher Wray defends the Bureau from a barrage of Republican attacks on Capitol Hill. What he said about accusations of bias against conservatives and the Republican Chairman of the House Oversight Committee, is defending his whistleblower after he was accused of being an agent for China. The Committee's Democratic Ranking Member Jamie Raskin will join us live. He's calling for an investigation.

MATTINGLY: And new overnight, major Hollywood studios and streamers have failed to reach a deal with the union representing actors. What's next for them and what's next for your favorite shows?

[8:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, CNN has learned that Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson has been interviewed by Special Counsel Jack Smith's office. And we're told the interview took place back in March. She is the latest State official to face questions as part of the investigation looking into alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. This is what she told CNN last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOCELYN BENSON (D), SECRETARY OF STATE OF MICHIGAN: I think it's important that evidence be taken seriously. And I have confidence that it is being taken seriously. And we are willing to go over and over again with the relevant authorities. Everything we endured and experienced and witnessed to ensure again, where there's evidence of a pernicious and strategic effort to overturn the will of voters that there is justice that sort of thought can't happen again.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: Joining us now Democratic Representative from Maryland, Jamie Raskin. He's a former member of the January 6 Select Committee and the Ranking Member on the House Oversight Committee. Thank you so much for your time this morning. So, Benson is the third State official to be interviewed by the Special Counsel that we know of. I mean, she's the Secretary of State. As a former member of the January 6 Committee, what does this tell you about where the investigation is going?

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Well, it seems clear to me that Jack Smith, the Special Prosecutor is actually reconstructing the entire plot to overthrow the result of the 2020 Presidential election. Because that was how Donald Trump started. He went State by State to try to get the legislatures to overthrow the legitimate electors and install these counterfeit slates of electors pledged to him. So, it seems to me that Jack Smith is following the trail of evidence that Donald Trump left behind him.

BROWN: Yes. And, of course, the FBI, still investigating all of this. The FBI under attack by your colleagues across the aisle. They're accusing the FBI of weaponizing it and being political and being bias. Here's what Wray had to say about those accusations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTOPHER WRAY, FBI DIRECTOR: The idea that I'm biased against conservatives seems somewhat insane to me. Given my own personal background as to how we are approaching our work of protecting the American people and upholding the Constitution. It starts with me having emphasize to all of our folks, over and over and over again. And everything we do, that we need to do the right thing in the right way and that means following the facts wherever they lead no matter who likes it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Christopher Wray, the Director of the FBI, Republican himself. And your view, how harmful are these attacks on Wray and on the FBI as an institution?

RASKIN: But they're extremely harmful because they're basically throwing the entire apparatus of Federal Law Enforcement under the bus, in their eagerness to wrap themselves around Donald Trump's lies. They would prefer to have people believe that Christopher Wray, a Donald Trump appointee who himself is a conservative Republican is involved in some kind of conspiracy against Donald Trump and his supporters rather than accept the fact that Donald Trump took with him hundreds and hundreds of documents that didn't belong to him.

[08:25:08]

Many of them confidential, top secret, and there's even photographic evidence of it. But they would prefer to concoct a whole outlandish conspiracy theory rather than accept the possibility that their hero was acting completely consistent with his character. And thinking that he was above the law and took all of these documents. And then, refused to return them even when given multiple opportunities to do so.

BROWN: And as you all know, your colleagues across the aisle, they're also very focused on going after the Biden administration in every way that essentially, they can. I want to talk about this man Gal Luft, he was -- he allegedly had damning information. According to James Comer, the Ranking Member there. It related to Hunter Biden's activities in China. He has been indicted on serious charges from arms trafficking to sanctions violations, to acting as an unregistered agent for China. And now you're asking your Republican colleague, James Comer, to investigate him. What do you think that would actually accomplish?

RASKIN: Well, remember, this is their star witness. This is the person they've been promising for weeks and weeks and weeks will come forward and blow the cover on the big bribery plot. That they've been unable to produce any evidence about related to President Biden. So, they said this is the guy as recently as Friday. Chairman Comer was saying this is a very credible witness. Well, it turns out with the unsealed indictment from yesterday, or the day before, that Gal Luft himself is a fugitive from justice, who's at large.

Who is facing an eight-count indictment from November of last year for being an unregistered foreign agent for Chinese government interests, for making false statements to federal agents and for engaging in unlawful arms trafficking deals and export trading Chinese arms for Iranian oil. And this is the guy that our colleagues want us to depend on for, you know, blowing the cover on some nonexistent bribery investigation.

So, look, the fact is that what they're going after, was already considered by Donald Trump's appointee, a U.S. Attorney in the Western District of Pennsylvania under William Barr. And they found nothing, they found no reason to proceed from an assessment of the evidence to a full-blown investigation.

BROWN: Yes.

RASKIN: And so that should have been the end of the story. But instead, they're out there playing spy versus spy with these people who are basically using the Oversight Committee of the United States House of Representatives as a dupe. This guy is in hiding, he's a fugitive, and he's using his ability to wow, the members have the majority of the Oversight Committee to wrap himself in some kind of legitimacy or authority. It's kind of like what George Santos has done with the Republican Party. I mean, they're attracting conman and --

BROWN: Well, let me -- let me just ask though, because, you know, Comer for his part said, look, you might be a bad guy, clearly. But I still want you to talk to me, isn't it possible, he could still have credible information that could help the investigation?

RASKIN: He's been indicted for making false statements. And this is the person we're going to rely on? When all of these matters have already been considered by Donald Trump's own Department of Justice, right? We're talking about William Barr, we're talking about Trump's U.S. Attorney in the Western District of Pennsylvania. They already looked at all of this evidence, or alleged evidence, but they looked at these tips, and they led nowhere and now they're recycling the same old Giuliani allegations through the guise of this guy who wants to wrap themselves in the cloak of that House Oversight Committee.

And we've got Senator Ron Johnson over on the other side of Capitol Hill saying he should be given immunity. In other words, he should be given a clean slate for all of his arm's trafficking crimes and his false statement crimes and failing to register as an agent for the Chinese government. So, he can talk to the Oversight Committee about tips that have already been thoroughly discredited and repudiated by Donald Trump's own Department of Justice. So, we're really in Alice in Wonderland territory now.

BROWN: All right. We'll have to leave it there. Congressman Jamie Raskin, thanks for your time this morning.

RASKIN: Thanks for having me.

MATTINGLY: A key witness in the House January 6 Committee Hearings, Cassidy Hutchinson, will release a memoir this fall. She was a top aide to then White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows and was pivotal in the yearlong investigation of the attack. Hutchinson provided damaging testimony against former President Trump alleging that the Secret Service resisted his demands to join the insurrectionists at the Capitol. And the members of Trump's inner circle offered jobs and money while she was cooperating with the Committee. Enough, the title of the book will be released September 26.

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