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CNN This Morning

Special Counsel Asking Witnesses about Oval Office Meeting about Election Security; McCarthy Makes Direct Impeachment Threat Against Biden; Abbott on Floating Barrier: Texas is Defending Its Sovereignty and Right to Secure Border; U.N. Experts Find Mines at Russian-Controlled Nuclear Plant; Doctors Across Israel on Strike Over Judicial Overhaul. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired July 25, 2023 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR/CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: -- "Club."

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(MUSIC: BRITNEY SPEARS, "TOXIC")

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ROMANS: Her 2003 hit, "Toxic," has reached a billion streams on Spotify, joining Abba's "Dancing Queen," Whitney Houston's "I Want to Dance with Somebody." Billion, wow.

All right. Thanks for joining me. I'm Christine Romans. CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: It is Tuesday morning. We are so glad you're with us on CNN THIS MORNING. Good morning.

Good morning, Erica.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, my friend.

HARLOW: We have a lot of news to get to --

HILL: It is a busy Tuesday.

HARLOW: -- around the world. So let's get started with "Five Things to Know" for this Tuesday, July 25.

It is meeting day for the federal grand jury in the investigation into efforts to overturn the 2020 election. And CNN has learned exclusively that prosecutors are looking into an Oval Office meeting where former President Trump repeatedly praised how secure elections were. Yes. Before going on to bash them and question them.

HILL: House Speaker Kevin McCarthy going further than he's gone before, saying the House investigations into the Biden family business dealings rise to the, quote, "level of impeachment inquiry." Texas, refusing to remove its border buoys as the Justice Department

sues the state. The state's Republican governor says he plans to fight this all the way to the Supreme Court.

HARLOW: Israel's doctors on strike this morning after a violent night of protests over a new law limiting the power of the nation's Supreme Court. And the Israeli umbrella labor union warning of, quote, "serious consequences" if the government legislates unilaterally.

HILL: The Alabama woman who went missing for 49 hours after making a 911 call now says she was not kidnapped and, in fact, it was all a hoax. Investigators mulling charges against her.

CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

HARLOW: Here is where we begin this morning. Just hours from now, the federal grand jury investigating Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the election will meet again as another potential indictment looms over the former president.

We are also learning exclusive details about this Oval Office meeting that Special Counsel Jack Smith is apparently zeroing in on. Sources tell CNN his investigators have been asking multiple witnesses about a meeting in the Oval Office. It happened in February of 2020, where Trump apparently praised improvements to election security and thought they were so good perhaps they should do a press conference about them with the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security to take credit.

HILL: But just weeks later, Trump, again, spreading baseless voter fraud conspiracy theories.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The mail ballots, they cheat. OK? People cheat. Mail ballots are a very dangerous thing for this country.

This election will be the most rigged election in history.

The only way we're going to lose this election is if the election is rigged. Remember that.

This is being done on purpose. They know it's no good. They know it's -- it's going to be fraudulent. It's going to be fraud all over the place. Who's getting the ballots? Who's sending the ballots?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Let's bring in now CNN senior crime and justice reporter Katelyn Polantz with more.

So Katelyn, this is perhaps the latest indication that the special counsel is looking to learn more about, seeking testimony about what Donald Trump knew or was told about election security leading up to some of these voter fraud claims. KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right. So

this is a new report that reflects some of the sweep of this investigation.

This investigation by Special Counsel Jack Smith has been going on for months and months and has really looked at every angle about what happened, not just after the election but what happened before the election, as well.

And so, this reporting from Sean Lyngaas, Kylie Atwood, Zach Cohen and Evan Perez here at CNN is that they have pieced together that one of the avenues that the special counsel had been asking people about is what happened when senior national security officials went to the White House to tell Donald Trump how secure the election was going to be.

That was at the beginning of 2020. And Donald Trump was so encouraged by this that he was telling them that he wanted them to have some sort of press conference to take credit for the work that they had done and had some sort of level of confidence in this.

Obviously, Trump's tune changed the closer it got to the election and then, obviously, afterwards. He was quite keen on saying publicly that he didn't believe the election had been secure.

But this is just another piece of something that the special counsel's office has heard about in this time period, looking at two different things. How Donald Trump was reacting to the election as it was upcoming; and also how well-informed he was, what he was being told by senior intelligence officials.

And while the special counsel has heard about this from some people, we also have heard through our reporting that there were some people that would have been around the White House at that time in February 2020, who hadn't been asked about this and have talked to the special counsel.

[06:05:03]

So totally unclear where it fits in this. But we are at a moment at the end where we might learn very soon how it would factor into a potential case against Donald Trump as that grand jury meets again today.

HARLOW: I thought that was a really interesting part of this reporting, that some folks in the meeting have been asked about it, but some who you expect to be in the meeting weren't. So how big a deal is this for Jack Smith?

Before you go, the special counsel, Jack Smith, has also gotten a lot of documents, a trove of documents, from Rudy Giuliani's team. All of these efforts, affidavits, et cetera, trying to find election fraud. What's the significant of that being in Jack Smith's hands now?

POLANTZ: Yes. Well, Poppy and Erica, you would think that by now, the special counsel's office has gotten everything that they wanted -- HARLOW: Right.

POLANTZ: -- or that things had been turned over to House investigators in lawsuits.

But actually, Bernie Kerik, who was a really key person working with Rudy Giuliani after the election, an old friend of Giuliani's in New York, who was a top investigator and coordinator of this effort to try and undermine what the vote was to not elect Donald Trump, he was one of the people that was funneling information to Rudy Giuliani.

And when the House asked for documents from him, when lawsuits asked for documents from Bernie Kerik, he was declining to turn them over, saying that they were part of the umbrella of things that should not be handed over, because Giuliani was a lawyer, and he was working on that team. So a privilege claim that he was making.

But now, he has recanted that, and he's saying, Actually, the Trump campaign that held the privilege here, they're willing to allow me to turn these documents over. And so he's turned many over to the special counsel's investigation.

They're still getting information even at this late stage.

HARLOW: Yes. Fascinating. Thank you for the update on both, Katelyn.

Let's bring in now CNN senior legal analysts, former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, Elie Honig.

So Elie, as we look at this, as Katelyn pointed out, they're really looking at both the reaction, Donald Trump's reaction to the election, to that information, but also what stood out to me here is how well- informed the former president was. That's important.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. The entire battleground in this case, if there is a case brought, will be about intent. Will be about what was in Donald Trump's mind. It's the hardest thing for prosecutors to prove. Especially in this case, it's the most important thing for them to prove.

And if, as a prosecutor, you're trying to make an argument to the jury, he knew. He understood that these elections were safe and secure. He knew there was no fraud, this meeting is chapter one in that story. You say here it is.

And it's important to know the timing. It's almost a full year before January 6th. It's February 2020. And you say, here is Donald Trump sitting down with his own top election security officials. They're telling him that this election is secure.

Not only does he agree with that, he wants to celebrate it. Now, that doesn't necessarily end the issue, because the defense can say, sure, that's what he was told. But later, he got more facts.

HARLOW: Yes.

HONIG: -- and his view evolved. But, this is a pretty good starting point.

HARLOW: I was just going to say, you need mens rea; you need state of mind for a crime. But your mind can change.

HONIG: Yes.

HARLOW: And if your Trump's defense counsel, isn't that your exact argument?

HONIG: So let me put on my other hat here and be Trump's defense lawyer.

HARLOW: Defense counsel.

HONIG: Yes. I would say, Folks in the jury, this shows you that Donald Trump was very hands-on and very concerned about election security. Right? Now, as time went by, he had advisers telling him there is fraud. You all may say that those advisers were kooky: Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell. They -- they're not lawyers right now. They're suspended right now, but they were lawyers at the time. They were former federal prosecutors.

And should Donald Trump have listened to them? We can debate that. But would it be a crime for Donald Trump to listen to them?

I'm arguing as Donald Trump here --

HARLOW: Yes.

HONIG: No, it would not be there.

So this is a little bit of the back and forth that we're going to see if there's a trial any day on -- if we see an indictment.

HILL: If there's a trial, depending on what the charges are.

HONIG: Is there's an indictment, if there's a trial.

HILL: We have to keep -- I think it's important to keep saying.

There's also "The Washington Post" reporting about this text exchange, which was actually in the January 6th report. But this text exchange between Mark Meadows and Trump lawyer Eric Herschmann, early December, 2020. They're LOL-ing -- laughing out loud, for the kids in the room who don't know what the old people are talking about -- about the idea that there was massive voter fraud in Georgia.

What does that potentially signify?

HONIG: So again, it goes to intent.

But as to Mark Meadows, let's remember: Mark Meadows has some issues here. We don't know exactly what his status is. We do have reporting that he's spoken with Jack Smith's team. But this can be incriminating towards Mark Meadows. Because he's laughing. He's joking about the fact that his son has

only found a handful of isolated incidents of voter fraud. And the joke is sort of, well, why doesn't he just, you know, find all the thousands that you and your boss keep joking about.

HARLOW: This is right before he was on that famous Trump call --

HONIG: Exactly.

HARLOW: -- with Raffensperger in Georgia.

HONIG: Exactly. Let's remember that. So that call was January 2, 2021. A few days before January 6, actually.

HARLOW: Yes.

HONIG: Mark Meadows is on that call. Mark Meadows is the one who introduces the parties on that call. Of course, the infamous call where Donald Trump ends up asking Brad Raffensperger to find 11,780 votes.

So you say, you argue -- if you're trying to argue that Mark Meadows was part of a fraud, he knows. Behind closed doors, he's joking about how there's no fraud; yet here, he is helping the president browbeat people to find fraud.

HARLOW: When the target letter came last week to Trump, many people thought hours, if not days, before we know if there's an indictment there.

[06:10:06]

HONIG: Yes.

HARLOW: And it's been a week.

HONIG: Yes. So the -- I think he got the target letter on Sunday. Now nine days later.

HARLOW: Yes.

HONIG: There's no set rule of you must indictment within "X" number of days of the target letter. All we really know is the grand jury, I believe, is back in session today. And now we wait.

The fact, by the way, that there are other witnesses scheduled -- Bernie Kerik -- scheduled for two weeks from now does not mean DOJ has to wait on then. You can indict whenever you want. You can keep investigating, as long as that ongoing investigation relates to some other person, some other angle, some other crime.

So we're all on watch.

HARLOW: That we are.

HILL: You're on stand-by. You are not allowed to leave this building, as you know.

HONIG: I have -- I have an electronic bracelet on my ankle that won't let me go far.

HARLOW: Poor Elie. Elie, thank you.

So new overnight, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy made his most direct threat yet of an impeachment inquiry into President Biden. McCarthy still has not explicitly said that he would formalize an inquiry against the president or offer a timeline.

Lauren Fox following all this on Capitol Hill. Follow the money is what he is saying.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. These are really the strongest comments we have heard from him yet, Poppy, into whether or not the House of Representatives would launch an impeachment inquiry into President Joe Biden.

Here's what he said last night to Sean Hannity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): We would know none of this if Republicans had not taken the majority. We've only followed where the information has taken us. But had --

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: Mr. Speaker --

MCCARTHY: Rising to the level of impeachment inquiry.

We will follow this all the way to the end. And this is going to rise to an impeachment inquiry, the way the Constitution tells us to do this. And we have to get the answers to these questions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: And there are multiple House committees that have been investigating Hunter Biden's business dealings for months now. They have yet to show a direct link between President Joe Biden and his son.

However, their argument, from House Republicans, is that these investigations have to continue.

We should also note this isn't happening in a vacuum, Poppy. House Republicans have been talking about impeachment inquiries into Alejandro Mayorkas, the Homeland Security secretary, as well as Attorney General Merrick Garland. So there's a whole host of Biden officials that they are looking into.

We should also note that this comes just weeks after House Speaker Kevin McCarthy had a phone call with former President Donald Trump, in which he made it clear that he supported the idea of erasing or expunging the record of Donald Trump's impeachments in the House to the former president. He said he was going to have a conversation with House Republicans.

When we talked to House Republicans last week about expunging Donald Trump's impeachment records, the conference was really split between moderates who argued, you know, what is the practical implication there, and more hardline members, like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who said that this is an idea they have long been pushing -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Well, we'll hear a little bit more about all of it from David Weiss when he appears publicly to testify, that U.S. attorney that agreed to the Hunter Biden plea deal in the fall. So that will add another element to this.

Lauren, thanks very much.

HILL: This morning, Texas is refusing to remove its border barriers in the Rio Grande, even as the federal government sues. Governor Greg Abbott vowing to take this fight all the way to the Supreme Court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R-TX): We will litigate it initially in a federal district court in the state of Texas. If we lose there, we will be going to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals and eventually all the way to the United States Supreme Court, because Texas is defending its sovereignty and its constitutional right to secure the border of our state and our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: The administration is asking a federal judge to force Texas to get rid of the floating barrier there, meant to deter migrants. The barrier itself is about 1,000 feet long. It's anchored to the bottom of the waterway.

So the Justice Department here says it's not only dangerous, but it is illegal.

CNN's Rosa Flores is live in Eagle Pass, Texas, near the border this morning. The DOJ, of course, filing this to not necessarily about immigration but about environmental concerns.

Rosa, what are you seeing this morning on the ground?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Erica, good morning.

What we're seeing is defiance on the border. Let me show you the border barrier that's at the center of this legal battle. If you take a look here beyond two sets of concertina wire, you'll see the buoys the middle of the river.

According to the U.S. DOJ's lawsuit against the state of Texas, these buoys were deployed unlawfully. They were deployed without permits by the Army Corps of Engineers.

According to this lawsuit, these pose diplomatic risks with Mexico, and also raise concerns both of public safety and humanitarian concerns.

Now, according to Gov. Greg Abbott, the state of Texas has sovereign authority based on the constitutions of Texas and the United States.

Now the office of the Texas attorney general issuing a statement to CNN, saying that they're ready to duke it out in court. They're ready to fight for Texas's use of these border buoys along the Rio Grande.

[06:15:07]

Now back to the humanitarian concerns. Take a look at this video. We were here yesterday when a pregnant woman from Honduras was getting medical attention here on the property where we are, live.

And the property owner actually painted a clearer picture of what was happening. She explained to us that this woman was on the river and that law enforcement had to cut the concertina wire to render her aid. They also had to cut the fence to actually bring her on her property to render aid.

Now, this property owner is very concerned about these border barriers, saying that they pose additional risks to migrants. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAGAIL URBINA, TEXAS LANDOWNER: I cannot imagine anyone eight months pregnant having to go through this. Getting cut from the C-wire, feeling like you're being chased by the state, and then asking for help at a fence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES: Now, Erica, it's not just the U.S. DOJ that's asking the state of Texas to remove the floating border barrier. That property owner is also asking the state of Texas to remove the wire. She says it just adds a danger that is not needed, especially in this triple-digit heat -- Erica.

HILL: Rosa, appreciate it. Thank you.

HARLOW: And explosive discovery at a Russian-occupied nuclear power plant in Ukraine. A team of United Nations nuclear experts say they found mines.

HILL: And what comes next in Israel after lawmakers defied mass protests, passing a law to strip power from the Supreme Court? We're on the ground, covering both of these developing stories.

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[06:20:26]

HARLOW: Welcome back. We have new developments out of Ukraine this morning. Experts from the -- the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog agency have confirmed

the discovery of mines at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. That's very concerning, obviously.

Ukraine's president has repeatedly called on world leaders to put pressure on Russia to hand over control of the plant to the agency. Our Alex Marquardt joins us again this morning. He's live in Odessa; that's in Southern Ukraine.

Alex, this is incredibly concerning. This is Europe's largest nuclear plant.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is, Poppy. Because you never want to hear the word "mines" alongside "nuclear power plant."

What we understand from the IAEA, from its head, Rafael Grossi, is that IAEA experts were there over the weekend, spotted what they called directional anti-personnel mines scattered around the periphery and -- or along the -- the outside in a buffer zone.

Now these would be smaller mines that explode in a certain direction. They're designed to maim or to -- to kill humans. So they are likely not a threat to the plant itself.

But it really does speak to how entrenched the military is -- the Russian military is there. They have occupied it for quite some time.

Now it goes without saying, but we are hearing from the IAEA that this is what they say, against the safety standards and nuclear security guidance.

We have heard from President Zelenskyy and other Ukrainian officials in the past, who have accused Russian forces of mining the plant in a more robust way, including mines along the roof that they say could lead to a terrorist act by Russia. But Poppy, that is something that Russia has long denied.

HARLOW: Ukraine has been reporting territorial gains, some success in this counteroffensive. You're in Southern Ukraine, obviously standing in front of destruction. Talk to us about what's behind you and also your assessment of what we're seeing on the ground in this counteroffensive.

MARQUARDT: Well, I think some success, really, is what needs to be emphasized here.

Ukrainian armed forces claiming that they are pushing forward on two specific fronts as they try to go South towards cities called Berdyansk and Melitopol. These are occupied by Russian forces. But they are, essentially, prodding along this front line, trying to break through this very tough Russian line.

The Institute for the Study of War, which is the group that monitors this, says that Ukrainian forces have managed to move forward about 1.7 kilometers or just over a mile. But the -- This is one of the main goal, one of the main goals in this counteroffensive, is to drive South, split that Russian line and cut through what has become known as this land bridge, which connects Russian-occupied Crimea with -- with the Donbas.

Poppy, when I spoke with the Ukrainian defense minister a couple days ago, he said that this is their main priority, to try to reach the Sea of Azov and split those Russian defenses.

Now Poppy, here in the city of Odessa, obviously, this is a city that has come under withering Russian attack over the past week. They did not attack the city overnight. We did briefly hear some air-raid sirens, but there was no significant attack.

I'm standing here in front of a building that has been -- has been pretty badly destroyed. This is one of those historical buildings, some of the 25 that were damaged in recent strikes alongside that cathedral that I spoke to you from just yesterday. Workers have been working here throughout the course of the morning to clear it.

We have seen over the past week Russia not attacking the city on certain nights. But then, Poppy, they will come back with a vengeance. So certainly, no one here is expecting these attacks to be over. This is a city that is still very much on edge -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Alex, thank you for your reporting, live from Odessa for us. Appreciate it.

Erica.

HILL: This morning, Israel's health system is going on strike. This is in response to Israeli lawmakers passing the first judicial overhaul law, stripping the Supreme Court of power to block government decision.

Now officials say that emergency rooms will operate as usual. The strike won't affect Jerusalem and the ongoing protests. Thousands of demonstrators took to the streets after the vote, blocking highways, clashing with police, who say at least 19 people have been arrested.

CNN's Hadas Gold is live in Jerusalem this morning with more.

And what else are we anticipating? What else are we already seeing, Hadas, in terms of fallout from this bill's passing?

HADAS GOLD, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. The protests continuing overnight. Some dramatic scenes, especially with police using water cannons, as well as what's called skunk spray -- It's very foul-smelling water spray -- against the protesters in Jerusalem.

And in Tel Aviv blocking roads, blocking highways. We know dozens have been injured, as well as at least a dozen police officers. In one case, actually, a car rammed into some protesters along a highway. That car -- the driver has been arrested. Now, as you noted, the Israeli Medical Association is on a 24-hour

strike. Emergency rooms are still working. We know that petitions have already been filed in the Supreme Court seeking a temporary injunction on this legislation. That has not yet been granted, as far as we know, but we know of at least two petitions that have been filed.

[06:25:10]

And there are still those thousands of military reservists who have said that they will not heed the call to serve since this legislation has passed.

We're also getting more diplomatic fallout, international relation fallout. The British Foreign Office issuing a statement, saying that they're urging consensus and that they hope Israel will preserve checks and balances.

Now, last night, Benjamin Netanyahu took to the airwaves in a televised statement, and he was essentially digging in. He called the legislation, that as you noted, strips the Supreme Court's ability from stopping government actions, declaring them unreasonable. He says that it's a necessary democratic step.

He blamed the opposition for not compromising and saying that he's still open to negotiations on the further bills that they plan to pass about this judicial overhaul.

But he says that they will keep going, because keep in mind, the legislation that passed yesterday, it's just the first step. It's just one step of this massive judicial overhaul package that Benjamin Netanyahu's government wants to push forward that will completely reshape the Israeli judiciary; everything from how Supreme Court justices are appointed, to the legal advisers within the government, and further and further actions.

Now in addition to the fallout, just to give you a sense of the mood here on the ground, I want to show you some of the major newspapers in Israel. They have accepted these blackout ads. And what they're saying at the bottom is "a black day for democracy," a dark day for democracy.

This is essentially all of the major Israeli newspapers have accepted this ad.

Now this ad was by a protest movement. This isn't an editorial decision. But just the fact that these newspapers accepted this advertisement on their front pages, the day after what may be one of the most consequential days in Israeli domestic political history, that gives -- to a sense of the mood on the ground here.

There's a lot of concern about what this means going forward; what this means for civil society going forward. But as of right now, the government saying this -- they're defending this move and saying this is a good thing, and it's just the beginning -- guys.

HILL: It is fascinating. And the -- the acceptance of those ads, as you point out, Hadas, super interesting, as well. Really appreciate the reporting, as always. Thank you.

HARLOW: We'll have much more on Israel ahead in the program.

Meantime, here in the United States, more than 340,000 UPS workers could go on strike soon. Negotiations continue today to try to prevent what could significantly adversely impact U.S. economy.

HILL: And a plane's nose shredded during a hailstorm on a New York- bound flight. Imagine what it was like on board. You'll hear about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVEN COURY, PASSENGER ON DIVERTED DELTA FLIGHT: When I got to the bottom of the stairs, I looked around at the plane and saw that the nose of the plane had been pretty much ripped apart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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