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CNN This Morning
Israeli Government Passes Law To Limit Supreme Court Power; China's Foreign Minister Qin Gang Replaced By Wang Yi; Upcoming Congressional Hearing To Examine UFO Claims. Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired July 25, 2023 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[07:30:00]
CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And there have been a couple of instances --
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Was --
CHRISTIE: -- in my career where that's created some harm.
HARLOW: Was --
CHRISTIE: But I think I've learned from it.
HARLOW: Was trusting Trump your biggest mistake in that arena?
CHRISTIE: No, because trusting Trump didn't affect the people that I governed as governor of New Jersey.
But I will tell you this. I came to the conclusion the night he stood in the East Room of the White House behind the seal of the president and told the American people the election was stolen when he had no evidence to support that, that was the moment that I could no longer support him as president. And so, my opinion hasn't changed since then.
HARLOW: Governor Chris Christie, please come back. We enjoy having you on. Thank you.
CHRISTIE: Good to talk to you, Poppy. Thanks for having me.
HARLOW: Thanks. Erica --
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: A great wide-ranging interview there.
Well, in Israel, this morning, lawmakers defying mass protests, passing that law to strip power from the Supreme Court. Israel's minister of strategic affairs joins us next.
(COMMERCIAL)
HILL: This morning, doctors across Israel walking off the job. This is all in response to lawmakers passing a controversial judicial reform bill which strips the Supreme Court of its power to block government decisions. Israel's health system says the strike will not affect emergency rooms nor the city of Jerusalem due to the ongoing protests there.
At least 19 people have been arrested after demonstrators took to the streets Monday, blocking highways and clashing with police.
Joining us now is Ron Dermer, the Israeli Minister of Strategic Affairs. It's good to have you with us this morning.
You advised the prime minister back in March not to proceed here. I know your role, in many ways, was to drum up support -- to find the consensus here. It didn't seem to be there. And the national security adviser, among those advising against it.
Why do you believe the prime minister didn't listen to you here?
RON DERMER, ISRAELI MINISTER FOR STRATEGIC AFFAIRS: Well, I don't think he didn't listen to me. We tried. The prime minister tried and authorized me to go into discussions with the Israeli president and members of the opposition to try to reach consensus and compromise. Unfortunately, those talks did not bear fruit.
And so what the prime minister decided to do -- he can't give a veto power to the political opposition of any step forward in judicial reform. So what he decided to do was to choose the least controversial subject, which is what passed just the other day -- this sort of reasonable standard, which the judges in Israel have used to strike down all sorts of decisions made by both the executive and the legislative branch.
[07:35:16]
And that was a -- this issue of the reasonableness clause was something that members of the opposition had supported reforming in the past. So he took the least controversial issue and he said we're going to move forward in a measured way with the least controversial aspect of this reform. And after that is passed he called on the opposition to now sit down at the table to get serious about finding a compromise.
HILL: So --
DERMER: That's what he said yesterday. He's given four months now in order to find that compromise and believe me, Erica, if we can't get to a compromise in four months we won't be able to get to a compromise in four years. The prime minister would like to do that. He would like to forge --
HILL: So --
DERMER: -- that consensus --
HILL: Right.
DERMER: -- and make these reforms together with the opposition, which is rare in democracies. Usually, that does not happen where the -- HILL: Well, one thing --
DERMER: -- the people that were elected turned to the other side and said let's do these reforms together.
HILL: So we'll see what happens in that four months.
But as you know -- I mean, you talk directly about this clause. There is no constitution in Israel. This was the one form of check and balance, right, was the Supreme Court being able to say hey, this doesn't work to the legislative and executive branch. That is now gone. That is what a major part of the concern was not just in the country but outside of the country as well. We heard it from the president here.
I'm curious. Did President Biden directly ask the prime minister to stomp down on this legislation?
DERMER: No, and let me also just clarify something. There are many checks that the Supreme Court has on the executive and legislative branches in government that maybe a lot of people are not aware of. There's all check and no balance. That's the problem that we've had in Israel over the last 30 years.
You've had one of the most activist judiciaries in a world -- in the world. We used to have three very strong branches of government and today we have a very big judicial branch of government and two twigs, the executive and legislative branch. And the focus of this reform is to try to restore the balance between the branches of government.
On what was passed yesterday it's important for you and your listeners to understand. There are many checks that the Supreme Court has on executive decisions and legislative branch decision in Israel. The reasonableness standard was one of the arrows in the quiver of the judiciary.
HILL: Yes.
DERMER: The problem with that standard is entirely subjected. You're basically substituting the views of 15, in Israel, unelected judges for the views of the 120 members of the Israeli Parliament or the government. And it's an entirely subjective standard that doesn't exist to this extent in any Western democracy.
The British --
HILL: So --
DERMER: -- have a very narrow standard where they only use arbitrary and capricious. (INAUDIBLE) doesn't have that standard.
HILL: So, speaking of the British, I will point out the foreign minister saying that you should -- urging the country this morning to preserve its system of checks and balances.
You talk about what you see as these limited voices. Let's talk about the voices who are very vocal, not just last night into today but for months, who have been concerned about this potential legislation and certainly, after it passed. We see the protests. You have the medical association on a 24-hour strike. We have thousands of reservists who say they will not report for duty. Nearly all former IDF chiefs of staff, as well as security officials are concerned about this.
Why rush this at this point given all of these concerns, both domestically and internationally?
DERMER: Well, I don't -- I don't agree that it was rushed. I mean, it took a couple of months to pass this -- the most minor part of the reform. We've been dealing with this thing for seven months. The prime minister just said we're going to give another four months for compromise.
Look, Erica, Israel is a democracy. And as you know, in all democracies around the world when you have issues that are controversial issues, you have protesters on the other side. You saw it in France. You see it in the United States.
HILL: Yes.
DERMER: You see it in democracies around the world. All it means is that Israel's democracy is very vibrant.
I think --
HILL: If --
DERMER: -- there are fears that the opposition and many of the protesters have. I personally think those fears are unfounded. And I think they're going to see as we move forward with this reform that many of the concerns that they have are not going to happen. All of the fears that they have of what this reform is going to do -- it's going to somehow be the end of Israeli democracy. They're going to realize no, it's going to strengthen Israeli democracy.
HILL: So --
DERMER: Israel has been a democracy, is a democracy, will continue to be democracy. We just have a judicial system -- again, I will say it -- that is the most activist in the world. You have issues --
HILL: If --
DERMER: -- right now in a clearly defined system in the United States where you have an executive, legislative, and judicial branches and you have tension between your branches of government -- between the executive branch and the judicial branch. That's what's happening in Israel now --
HILL: Indeed, we do.
Let me ask you because we're almost out of time. I do want to ask you though --
DERMER: -- and we just have to -- we have to restore the balance.
HILL: Specifically, in Israel, if the Supreme Court does, in fact, strike down this legislation, will the government heed that ruling?
DERMER: Well listen, Israel is run by the rule of law. I have no idea whether or not the Supreme Court would make such a decision. It would seem to me a very strange decision for the Supreme Court to make. To put it in American terms, imagine that Congress just passed a constitutional amendment --
[07:40:05]
HILL: Would you believe -- we're almost out of time, sir. So would the government heed that ruling? Yes or no.
DERMER: The government will always obey and abide by the rule of law in Israel because we're -- we have in Israel the rule of law. What we don't have is the rule of judges. We have the rule of law.
HILL: Ron Dermer, appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.
HARLOW: That was such a fascinating conversation and that last question I think still remains.
HILL: It does.
HARLOW: Yes.
HILL: It does. We'll be watching. We'll see what happens, too, in these next four months. But certainly, not the last time that we'll be talking about this.
HARLOW: A really good interview.
HILL: Thanks.
HARLOW: Really interesting.
The Fed about to kick off its two-day meeting today. Will it raise interest rates again after hitting pause in June?
HILL: Also, Congress about to hear firsthand testimony from witnesses who say they have seen UFOs. One of those witnesses joins us live next.
(COMMERCIAL)
HILL: This just in to CNN.
China's foreign minister Qin Gang has been suddenly removed from his position, replaced by his predecessor. The surprise shake-up in Chinese leadership is especially significant because he's been missing now from the public eye for a month without information or explanation.
CNN's Marc Stewart joining us now from Tokyo with these details. So the government had said at one point -- oh, we don't have any information. We don't know what happened. But he had been very close to President Xi.
What more do we know this morning?
MARC STEWART, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Erica, one of President Xi Jinping's most trusted advisers.
But as you mentioned, for the last month, there has been a lot of questions about his whereabouts. In fact, today, during a Ministry of Foreign Affairs briefing, a spokeswoman was asked about Qin Gang's whereabouts and how business is being conducted. And to quote, "No information to provide" is the line that was given, and that business was continuing as usual.
[07:45:07]
Well, fast-forward several hours, and about just within the last hour we learned that Qin Gang has been removed from his post as foreign minister.
This is a very high-profile job. This is the man who rebuked the United States and made strong comments after the incident involving the spy balloon and the shootdown, and the response. This is a man who has also served as ambassador to the United States. Very visible, yet has suddenly been out of the public view. He is the person who helped facilitate some of the recent conversations with Secretary of State Antony Blinken.
But again, we have not seen him. In fact, when there are key visits by U.S. officials, such as Secretary of Treasury Janet Yellen as well as John Kerry, he was out of public view.
So as to what happened, no clear narrative at this point. But this is a very bold change in the foreign policy force if you will for China, Erica.
HILL: Yes, it certainly is.
Marc Stewart, appreciate it. Good to see you this morning.
HARLOW: All right, stocks doing well. The Dow hit its longest winning streak in more than six years after it closed higher again yesterday. The rally comes as the Federal Reserve kicks off a two-meeting and economists do expect the Fed will raise rates once again after pausing in June.
Our chief business correspondent Christine Romans is here. What's going to happen?
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT, ANCHOR, "EARLY START": Good morning.
HARLOW: Good morning.
ROMANS: Probably 25 basis points -- a little bit of a rate hike here. You know, the Fed has really watched inflation cool but it's still too high for -- the Fed's two percent target is still at three percent. So we think they're going to do another one here.
And when you just look at the extent of all these rate hikes it's just been amazing. And what's also been amazing is the resilience of the U.S. economy in the face of that.
I mean, look at the stock market. The stock market -- you mentioned the longest winning streak for the Dow in more than six years. Look at the market performance this year, you guys. I mean, just take in those numbers.
HARLOW: Yes.
ROMANS: Last year was a disaster for investors. This year you're seeing a really strong bounce back. And one of the reasons is more and more people are looking at stronger-than-expected corporate earnings, cooling inflation, a still resilient job market, and saying maybe we can get that soft landing in the economy.
In fact, Morgan Stanley recently upgraded its GDP forecast for this year to 1.3 percent from 0.6 percent, which would suggest that we will avoid a recession. And Morgan Stanley specifically saying that Bidenomics and some of the Biden industrial policy is really helping here as well.
So, really, at the beginning of the year, people were saying when and not if there will be a recession. And today they're saying, hmm, maybe we'll get -- we'll get past it. And that's certainly what the markets are saying.
HARLOW: Wouldn't that be amazing?
ROMANS: I mean, yes. I mean, just remarkable. But I'm always waiting for the next shoe to drop --
HILL: Right.
ROMANS: -- as a business reporter. You know, always waiting for the next shoe to drop. But it has been a remarkable year --
HARLOW: Yes.
ROMANS: -- in terms of the resilience of the -- of the U.S. economy and the consumer, and the job market.
HARLOW: What a tightrope to walk.
ROMANS: I know, right?
HARLOW: Thank you.
HILL: Thank you, Christine.
ROMANS: All right -- talk soon. HILL: A House subcommittee is set to hold a hearing on UFOs tomorrow. Our next guest, a Navy pilot who says he saw them on a near-daily basis over a two-year period.
(COMMERCIAL)
[07:51:18]
HILL: We may -- just may get one step closer this week to learning the truth about what the government really knows about UFOs. We call them UFOs; the government calls them unidentified anomalous phenomena or UAPs.
Tomorrow, a House subcommittee will hear testimony from former U.S. military and intelligence personnel who say they've witnessed these UAPs, and they say they defy physics. They defy known flight capabilities.
Our next guest is one of those who will testify before the committee. He's a former Navy fighter pilot who says he witnessed the UAPs, quote, "every day for at least a couple of years."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE 1: Whoa! Got it! Ha, ha, ha! Whoo Hoo!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE 2: Roger. They're shooting back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE 1: What the f*** is that thing? Did you box a moving target?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE 2: No, I took an auto-track.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE 1: Oh, OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE 2: Oh my gosh, dude. Wow! Look at that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE 1: What is that, man?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE 2: Look at it fly. Ha, ha!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: Joining us now is the founder of Americans for Safe Aerospace, Ryan Graves. It's really good to have you with us this morning.
So we see that video and you're all kind of laughing -- what is that? It became very serious for you, though, I know. Part of training as a fighter pilot is to be able to identify objects in the sky. Do you have any idea of what that was?
RYAN GRAVES, FORMER NAVY FIGHTER PILOT, FOUNDER, AMERICANS FOR SAFE AEROSPACE: We don't. And to your point, being able to identify what's in the sky is a key part of being a fighter pilot. We're out there looking to identify who's operating off our coast and when we can't ascertain what -- who the owner is of a particular object that's a pretty big national security concern for us.
HILL: A big national security concern. It's also something that hasn't gotten as much attention. You know, around the Chinese spy balloon, you were saying it's not the same level of both public and official attention that we saw with that, for example, that we will see with these reports of UAPs or UFOs as folks call them at home.
Why do you think there is not the same level of interest or concern even?
GRAVES: Well, I think stigma has played a large role in minimizing the topic. When you hear UFO and even UAP to some extent, your mind goes to that cultural conversation about aliens and things of that nature. We don't have enough information to say where these objects are originating from. That's part of what we're trying to do. Gather more information and take a hard look at the data in a serious way so we can determine if there are national security concerns that will pop out.
As we saw, if there is a part of the sky that we're not paying that much attention to, our adversaries will take advantage of that.
HILL: And you mention this reluctance, in some cases, to come forward. I would think both in the military but also in the private sector -- pilots -- right? People need their jobs. It's a concern that if you come forward it turns into oh, it's aliens, and people will sort of make fun of you.
Is there also a concern that could negatively impact your employment?
GRAVES: Absolutely, and we're seeing that now with the -- with the military aviation community acknowledging that this is a real safety risk all the way to the point of us actually shooting down unknown objects over the continental United States a couple of months ago for the first time in history.
But even still, commercial airline pilots have no mechanisms to report this. If they see a UAP their only instruction if they should like to report it is to funnel that information to local law enforcement or some UAP/UFO organizations that are out in the public sector.
HILL: Yes.
GRAVES: So we don't have a formal process to look at this and that's a domain awareness gap.
HILL: This is going to be the third congressional hearing on UAPs. Are you sensing that there's more of a willingness among lawmakers to not only learn about what's happening but potentially have some action -- maybe even make it easier to report this?
[07:55:02]
GRAVES: Oh, I think so. I think we're seeing the start of that if you will -- a UAP caucus start to form. And the bottom line is once people take a look at the data it's hard to reach other conclusions. And so, we've seen a lot of support from those that have had the opportunity to view what myself and other pilots and other military folks have seen, and I think that support is going to continue to grow as this conversation expands post-hearing tomorrow.
HILL: Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer recently introduced bipartisan legislation which suggests the U.S. government or private contractors may possess secret (PH) recovered UFOs and even biological evidence of living or deceased non-human intelligence. I know one of the witnesses tomorrow, who is a whistleblower, is expected to testify to that.
Do you believe there could be some sort of a cover-up here on the part of the government?
GRAVES: Well, that would be what Mr. Grusch is implying and he did that research as part of the -- a member of the UAP task force that was put in place to investigate what we were seeing off the coast.
And so, I remain skeptical, I think as many do in the United States and elsewhere. But the fact of the matter is with such claims, the only way we're going to be able to get to the bottom and believe those, I think, is with further transparency from the government.
But having Mr. Grusch and myself, and Mr. Fravor go before Congress and being able to share our experiences, I think that is going to bring a lot of people into the conversation and put the onus on Congress --
HILL: Yes.
GRAVES: -- to be transparent about the topic.
HILL: Ryan Graves, really good to have you with us this morning, and we'll be watching that testimony. Thank you.
GRAVES: Thank you.
HARLOW: Special counsel Jack Smith zeroing in on a Trump meeting in the Oval Office. The details coming up.
And an infant rescued from this car in the middle of sweltering triple-digit heat in Texas and it was all caught on camera.
(COMMERCIAL)
HARLOW: Good morning, everyone. We're so glad you're with us. It is 8:00 a.m. here on the East Coast.
HILL: That happened fast, actually.
HARLOW: Thanks for being with me this --
HILL: It's flown by.
HARLOW: Yes, because you make it fly by. You're such a joy to sit next to, Erica Hill. This morning we are keeping a close eye on the nation's capital. January 6th grand jury -- that grand jury will meet again today.
