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Federal Grand Jury Investigating Donald Trump's Efforts to Overturn 2020 Presidential Election to Meet Again; Republican House Speaker Kevin McCarthy Suggests Possible Impeach of President Biden over Potential Business Dealings with Son Hunter Biden; U.S. Justice Department Sues Texas Governor for Floating Barrier along U.S.-Mexico Border Designed to Deter Immigration; Heat Waves Continue to Hit Parts of U.S. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired July 25, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: You make it fly by, you're such a joy to sit next to, Erica Hill.

This morning, we are keeping a close eye on the nation's capital. January 6th grand jury, that grand jury will meet again today as a potential third indictment looms over Donald Trump. We are also learning about an Oval Office meeting that has become a key focus of the special counsel's probe.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: The Justice Department is now suing the governor of Texas after he refused to remove a floating border wall that the DOJ says is cruel to migrants. We're going to take you live to the Rio Grande as that legal battle escalates.

HARLOW: Wait until you see this piece. Shoplifting has become so bad in San Francisco stores are literally locking up frozen food, coffee, even mustard. We will have a live report from Kyung Lah who saw it happen in real time when she was there.

This hour of CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

This morning the federal grand jury investigating Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the election will meet again. Anticipation is building as the former president faces another potential indictment. And we are now learning exclusive details about another Oval Office meeting that has become a focus of the special counsel. Sources tell CNN witnesses are being asked about a February, 2020, meeting where Trump praised election security and improvements that his administration had made. But just weeks later he started spreading conspiracy theories and casting doubt on the security of the 2020 election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Mail ballots, they cheat, OK? People cheat. Mail ballots are a very dangerous for this country.

This election will be the most rigged election in history. The only way we're going to lose this election is if the election is

rigged. Remember that.

This is being done on purpose. They know it's no good. They know it's going to be fraudulent. It's going to fraud all over the place. Who is getting the ballots? Who is sending the ballots?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Trump's one time ally and rival for the GOP presidential nomination Chris Christie joined Poppy live just moments ago and weighed in on that reporting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have no doubt in my mind, Poppy, that in his heart, Donald Trump knows he lost to Joe Biden in November of 2020. But he has convinced himself by trying to convince others that the truth is otherwise. He never looked me in the eye and said to me, I know I lost, but he was very concerned beforehand about losing. And so it doesn't surprise me at all the reporting that you gave overnight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Let's bring in CNN's senior legal analyst Elie Honig, CNN political commentator Bakari Sellers, and "Bloomberg News" Washington bureau chief Peggy Collins. Good to have all of you with us today. Let's just pick up on that. Chris Christie was talking about there is so much discussion right now as we're all waiting to see, could there be an indictment. There is so much talk about intent and whether what we are learning new overnight shows any sort of intent. But there is also the very real conversation, Elie, about how a person's mind can change. I believed a, but today I believe b because I learned something.

ELIE HONIG, SENIOR CNN LEGAL ANALYST: This is a great example of why it's so difficult to prove intent, because you can argue it either way, right. If I am a prosecutor, I am arguing, look, he knew that this election was safe, he was told this election was safe. He embraced that, he celebrated it. That shows he knew he lost that he ultimately lost, there was no fraud.

Or you can argue, well, minds can change, facts evolve, you get new facts. We want our policy leaders to adjust to the facts. Donald Trump will say people were telling me this was stolen. Therefore, I believed it was stolen. And so this is a back and forth.

One thing that's really important to keep in mind, when it comes to a criminal courtroom, it's not a question of who has a better argument, more convincing argument. Prosecutors have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. That's not easy. And that's why this case is not going to be a slam dunk. I don't think anything is a slam dunk, but this case will be tricky.

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'm not sure I see the merits of going deep into this meeting. I don't think this meeting alone -- I mean, I am not sure how you get intent out of this meeting. That's my biggest problem. I think if you couple this with some overt act -- we're not even sure -- Jack Smith probably has something, but we are not sure what overt act Donald Trump committed to object instruct justice, to intimidate witnesses, to interfere with the process. We know what other individuals may have done. But the question is, can you get the guy at the top of the indictment. That is the question. And we have see what those emails say from Mark Meadows. We have to see what Donald Trump actually overtly did in the process.

And if you couple that with this, then maybe it becomes clearer. But that on its face, this meeting on its face, I am not sure it does it.

PEGGY COLLINS, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, "BLOOMBERG NEWS": I also think it's going to be interesting to see how this plays with voters because, obviously, we have several cases now around former president Donald Trump, but this is the one that really goes to the heart of democracy, right, in terms of the integrity of the 2020 election, January 6th, and whether or not that really sits in voters' minds at a higher level and how they really take that across the campaign trail, because we have really reported that already we know there is going to be legal proceedings right at the intersection of the primaries and Donald Trump's cases.

[08:05:09]

HARLOW: It sounds like there might be an impeachment inquiry, Elie, against billion just listening to what Kevin McCarthy, the speaker, told FOX News last night. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY, (R-CA) HOUSE SPEAKER: Now you have found millions of foreign money just with the 1023 alleges they did to Biden's family, now we found that it has funneled through shell companies. If you are sitting in our position, we would know none of this if Republicans had not taken the majority. We've only followed where the information has taken us. But --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Speaker --

McCarthy: -- this is rising to the level of impeachment inquiry, which provides Congress the strongest power to get the rest of the knowledge and information needed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Not a legal question. It's a political question. But what did you make hearing Kevin McCarthy?

HONIG: This is the power of the majority. This is why elections matter. If you control Congress, you can open an impeachment inquiry. Speaking of there not being a smoking gun in any case, I still have not seen a smoking gun on this case. I think there are legitimate questions about where Hunter Biden was getting his money from. Clearly, he was only getting his money because his last name was Biden. But what has been missing is that definitive link to his father. And I think it's an interesting political question that you go to the political experts, but how does that play to open an impeachment inquiry and potentially impeach in guy at this point?

SELLERS: I am not sure. I want to follow that same train of thought here. I'm not sure where Joe Biden falls in any of this. And I think most of America is like, what are we doing? Are you impeaching Hunter Biden? That appears to be decently asinine. And I believe with -- you can't out of one side of your mouth, right, make an economic argument saying inflation is high, unemployment, or whatever other argument, because Bidenomics actually, I believe, is working in a certain aspect of life, and you can't make that same argument and then spend the majority of your time on an impeachment inquiry where an election is on the line. It doesn't make sense to me.

HILL: Well, it's called Washington.

(LAUGHTER)

HILL: But in terms of -- in terms of why now, what would that look like, timing, I think it is. If you look at this through that political lens, it could be clear why this is continually at the top -- at top of mind and why perhaps this impeachment inquiry could happen at this moment.

COLLINS: Well, I also think it goes back to the voters in terms of fatigue, right, and Chris Christie in his interview with you, Poppy, really said he thinks he is the guy to actually get something done. But this is the question that people keep having time and time again in Washington. What are you actually doing to help us when it comes to prices, when it comes to the economy, or is all of this a lot of political theater? It remains to be seen.

SELLERS: And what theater are you going to watch? I mean, honestly. Are you going to watch just you continue to dig into the rabbit hole after Hunter Biden, or are you going to watch the trial in Miami, Miami, Florida, of the former president of the United States, or in Atlanta, Georgia, or in New York, or in Washington, D.C.?

HARLOW: We don't know about Atlanta yet.

SELLERS: Oh, Atlanta's coming.

HARLOW: Oh, just saying, we don't know.

HONIG: The obvious.

SELLERS: First of all, Fani is a bad woman, OK? She is an amazing prosecutor. All you have to do is ask many other rappers in the city of Atlanta right now. The RICO indictments are just building, as we know, down there. So I just think having that type of political theater just on its face far surpasses any impeachment inquiry just from the sexiness of it.

HARLOW: Thank you, Elie, Peggy, Bakari. Appreciate it very much. HILL: This morning, Texas is refusing to remove its border barriers in the Rio Grande even as the federal government sues. Governor Greg Abbott vowing now to fight the Biden administration in court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GREG ABBOTT, (R) TEXAS: We will litigate it initially in a federal district court in the state of Texas. If we lose there, we will be going to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, and eventually all the way to the United States Supreme Court because Texas is defending its sovereignty and its constitutional right to secure the border of our state and our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: The Biden administration is asking a federal judge to force Texas to get rid of that floating barrier, put in there to deter migrants. The barrier itself is about 1,000 feet long. The governor says there is a fence-like device hanging from it to the bottom of the river. The Justice Department here says this is not only dangerous but also illegal. CNN's Rosa Flores is live in Eagle Pass, Texas, near the border this morning. The government saying it's illegal not because of immunization issues. We should point out there, it's a different statute. Give us a sense this morning, what are you seeing on the ground?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we actually just shot video, Erica, of migrants, and these are children and woman who are walking along the concertina wire on the Rio Grande again to the point that all of this is happening, there is this giant legal battle, and it's not stopping illegal immigration.

But let me show you the border barrier at the center of this legal battle, because if you look, you have to look beyond two sets of concertina wire, and then you see the buoys in the river.

[08:10:02]

Now, according to the U.S. DOJ's lawsuit against the state of Texas, these buoys were deployed unlawfully. The state of Texas did not obtain permits before deploying these buoys. This has caused, of course, an international incident because Mexico is concerned that these buoys could be on Mexican territory. They are investigating that. And of course, now there is this legal battle.

But if you take a look at our camera right now, you can see like these are women and children who have skirted all of these border barriers, and what they are having to do is walk along this concertina wire. And our understanding is that further south as they continue walking they will meet up with law enforcement, U.S. border authorities, that then take them for processing.

And about the humanitarian concerns that are raised because of all of these border barriers, take a look at this video. We were here on this property when a pregnant woman needed help, and the property owner shared the story with us. She says that this woman was on the banks of the Rio Grande, she needed help. Law enforcement had to cut through two sets of concertina wire and a fence to provide aid. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAGALI URBINA, TEXAS LANDOWNER: I cannot imagine anyone eight months pregnant having to go through this, getting cut through the c-wire, feeling like you are being chased by the state, and then asking for help at a fence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES: And as you take another live look out here, you can see that migration is still happening. And Erica, that's one of the big points here. You see all of these different border barriers, you see these buoys. The buoys have a beginning and an end. I can see it from right here. And that's the bigger point. The buoys that are at the middle of this legal battle, the showdown between the state of Texas and the U.S. DOJ is not even stopping illegal immigration. Migration is continuing. We're seeing it. It's the dangers that all of this poses to human beings, the humanitarian point, is what the property owner where we are live at, that's her concern. What she tells us is she doesn't want more people, more migrants dying on her property because of all of these barriers.

HILL: Yes. And important to let that sink in, too, the humanity and the people involved here. Rose, excellent reporting as always. Really appreciate it. So good to have you there.

HARLOW: More than 45 million people under heat alerts again in the United States. This morning, officials say 36 large wildfires are continuing to burn across 10 states. Multiple cities are seeing temps 10 to 15 degrees higher than the normal average, breaking daily records. Stephanie Elam joins us again this morning live from Las Vegas. Still incredibly hot, right?

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Still very hot. It's going be hotter today than it was yesterday, Poppy, here in Vegas. We are seeing for the rest of the week in Vegas and also in Phoenix that temperatures are going to be above 110 degrees. And we are just seeing these records just being shattered day after day. In Phoenix, they are going on 26 days in a row of temperatures above 110, and even their overnight temperatures are setting records. They are at 15 days in a row with temperatures above 90 degrees.

So there is not even a respite at night. People are still dealing with the temperatures that are super, super hot. Look at El Paso, which they are going on 40 days in a row where the temperatures have been above 100 degrees. In fact, I need to show you this video of what happened in south Texas during this heatwave where these parents accidentally locked their keys in the car along with their infant child. And you can see the father breaking out the windshield to get to the baby. Someone climbs in, gets the baby and hands the baby out. Officials did show up later to check on that baby after they had already rescued the child and the baby is OK. No charges filed. It looked like it was just an accident.

But keep in mind, that day temperatures were at 101, tying the record for that period. So just look at how hot that was and how dangerous that could be. This heat dome that we are seeing spreading into the Midwest, into the plains, also we are seeing Miami also having heat index for 44 days above 100 degrees. All of this heat shifting into the plains. We're going to see basically most of the lower 48 states with temperatures that are above average for this time of the year and heading into the northeast as well.

You guys are going to see some record temperatures towards the end of the week. But what's really interesting here, we have got a new report coming out saying these temperatures that we are seeing in July would not be possible without the human induced climate change. And so that tells you, again, we're going to have to do some work to save our planet and the climate here because this is becoming suffering.

HARLOW: Some dramatic change needed right now. Stephanie Elam, thank you for being there.

[08:15:00]

HILL: Death rates, overall death rates were higher among Republicans than Democrats during the pandemic after vaccines became readily available. Those findings from a new study, looking specifically at Ohio and Florida. So, what does it all mean? Dr. Sanjay Gupta, joining us with those details.

HARLOW: And when 14-year-old Emmett Till was lynched in 1955, his murder became a catalyst for the civil rights movement. What President Biden is doing today to honor Till and what would have been his 82nd birthday, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: There's a new study looking at political affiliation and how people fared during the pandemic in certain States. So, the study found that after COVID-19 vaccines became readily available. Republicans were more likely to experience higher than expected death rates versus Democrats. Important to point out these were overall deaths these were COVID deaths.

But really interesting here, you take a look at it was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association. And this was based on findings from two states, Ohio and Florida. So, what can we glean from all of this. Joining us now, who better to explain CNN Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Sanjay, good to see you this morning. So, when we -- when we look at this, again, this is about Florida and Ohio. And this is looking at overall death rates after the vaccine became readily available. What is the big takeaway?

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the way that they sort of figured this out is they look at the observed number of people who died. And then, they look at what was expected in terms of number of deaths. That's what excess mortality really means. We can figure out those numbers, and then what these authors (PH) did, they went back and looked at voter registration files and said, Is there a correlation here between these observed number of deaths and overall voter registration files.

[08:20:10]

And what was interesting is that up until April of 2021. So, the first year or so the pandemic, there was not a significant difference between Republicans and Democrats. But then as you say, starting in May of 2021, number of vaccines came out at the beginning of 2021. That's when you saw the significant difference, about a 43 percent increased death rate among Republicans versus Democrats in terms of excess deaths.

Now, one thing I'll say is you got to be careful a little bit with studies like this, because that's a simplification. There could be other factors, age for example, preexisting conditions, where you live, socioeconomic status. But overall, in terms of this one factor, they were looking at Republicans versus Democrats, they found that it was significantly different. Again, after the vaccines had come out, starting in the spring of 2021.

HARLOW: Age is something I thought a lot about when I was reading this study, did it? It wasn't controlled for age to make it apples to apples. Was this just due to vaccination status? We don't know.

GUPTA: Yes, I think that for the point you just made, we don't know for sure. But we can say vaccination status plays a big role. Let me show you something. This is some of the reporting we were doing around that time, when you look overall just at hospitalizations. Unvaccinated versus fully vaccinated.

And I think this tells a story. This is for people over the age of 18, January through November of 2021. Significant difference, obviously, between the unvaccinated and the vaccinated. But again, to your point, Poppy, there are other factors. The greatest disparity you saw, the greatest differences that you saw was really in people over the age of 75.

So, what it does mean? Are there more people who are Republicans over that age? Are there, you know, fewer Democrats? We don't know. So, you can only take this sort of data for what's presented here. There could be other confounding factors. But I think it's safe to say vaccinations played a huge role here.

HILL: When we look at where we stand now, in 2023, heading into the fall. Where do we stand with COVID? And where do we stand with even vaccine status?

GUPTA: OK. So, if you look again at this excess mortality issue and say, OK, how far above or below are we with regard to projected or expected number of deaths? We, the country, expects a certain number of deaths every month, every year. Where are we with expect to that I can show you, we calculated this as well.

In this graphic, the orange line is sort of the expected number of deaths. And the blue is what we're seeing. So, that's a good picture in the sense that the observed number of deaths is below or right at the expected number of deaths. You've had a couple of surges, as you see there earlier in the graph, but that's where we stand now.

Going into the fall, it's a little bit of a still open question. You've got new variants, some of those variants are escaping existing immunity, which is why there have been boosters that have been recommended. I think overall, if you look at the country, I think about 17 percent of the country has had the updated boosters.

And, you know, there's been discussion about future shots, and only about 33 percent of the country says that they're actually interested in getting some of these shots on a regular basis. So, 32 percent. So, you know, that's where we stand. I will say that if you look at some of these projections, more than 90 percent of the country probably now has been exposed to COVID.

So, there is a fair amount of infection acquired immunity out there as well, on top of the vaccine acquired immunity. The problem with both of those though, is that they seem to have limited efficacy in terms of time. They don't -- they don't last forever. They may last for months, in terms of preventing against, you know, getting sick or requiring hospitalization. So, you need to have updated immunity.

HARLOW: This is so interesting, Sanjay.

HILL: Yes. Always good to see you. Thank you.

HARLOW: Thanks.

GUPTA: You too. Got it.

HARLOW: Well, Emmett would have been, Emmett Till's 82nd birthday, today. President Biden will designate a National Monument, honoring the black teenager whose lynching served as a catalyst for the civil rights movement. In 1955, Emmett Till was 14, he was from Chicago who was visiting family in Mississippi when he was abducted, tortured, and shot to death. After a white woman accused him of allegedly whistling at her. She later admitted to lying about it. Our Sara Schneider spoke -- Sidner, I should say, spoke to Emmett Till's cousin Deborah Watts about Biden's plan to honor him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEBORAH WATTS, EMMETT TILL'S COUSIN: We know that it's time that we even have a seat at the table, that our family has a seat at the table. So that the erasure, the reimagining of the truth is not retold in a way that it removes the dignity, the sacrifice and of the horrific nature of what happened here because we don't want that repeated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: She went on to call her aunt, Till's mother Mamie Till-Mobley, hero. Till-Mobley will also be memorialized for courageously bringing the world's attention to her son's murder. She insists on an open casket funeral so the world could bear witness to her son's gruesomely mutilated body.

[08:25:14]

Other memorials in Mississippi telling Till's story have been vandalized, some of them even shot at. The new monument will consist of three protected sites. The first is going to be unveiled at the Chicago Church where Till's funeral was held. Another will be at the courthouse in Sumner, Mississippi, where that all white jury acquitted Till's murder after just an hour of deliberation. The third site will be Graball Landing, which is believed to be where Till's body was pulled in the Tallahatchie River. A very meaningful day.

HILL: Yes, so important. So, just ahead, can social media companies be held liable for their effects on the mental health of children. A lawyer representing some 40 school districts is now suing big tech companies. They say yes.

HARLOW: Also, Cal Dobbs, just became the first transgender person to complete a coast to coast run all the way from California to Florida. What inspired his journey? Ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Welcome back.

[08:30:00]