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Hunter Biden's Plea Deal in Jeopardy as Judge Raises Concerns; Ukraine Ramps Up Counteroffensive After Months of Slow Progress; Sources Say, Sen. Mitch McConnell Has Fallen Multiple Times This Year. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired July 27, 2023 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- the health of Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell after he stopped talking midsentence and froze during a news conference.

[07:00:07]

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): The president called to check on me, and I told him I got sandbagged.

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: This is not the first health scare that Mitch McConnell has experienced this year.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Time really does matter in terms of preventing this from happening in the future.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: President Biden will meet with the mayors of Phoenix and San Antonio about the brutal heat as more than 140 million Americans are under heat alerts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is hell, we want heaven.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't imagine being out for more than ten minutes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is going to be the most extreme heat we've experienced certainly in recent memory.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: A bipartisan call for more government transparency at UFOs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would estimate we're somewhere near 5 percent reporting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Biologics came with some of these recoveries.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Human or non-human biologics?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Non-human.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're just going to get to the facts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We should encourage more reporting. The more we understand, the safer we will be.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Dutch have scored 1-0 Netherlands. (INAUDIBLE) had it down, tie it in 1, she did it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I felt the momentum the whole time. We fixed things right away. I'm proud of the team and their response.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You roll up your sleeves, find your grit and then you find your goals.

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POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. As you can see, there's a lot of news, a lot of soccer --

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Excitement.

HARLOW: I have to call it football at this point, excitement, fever of the women and the World Cup, and a totally unexpected event in a federal courthouse yesterday.

HILL: That is for sure. So, this morning, Hunter Biden's plea deal, well, it's is on hold and potentially in jeopardy after really falling apart in that courtroom. A very dramatic court hearing Wednesday, the federal judge questioning the deal, put it on hold. And this as the president's son, of course, had been preparing to plead guilty to tax crimes and also avoid prosecution on a felony gun charge.

This hearing was really just a formality. It was supposed to be a quick 30 minutes, but instead it was an hours-long legal drama as prosecutors and Biden's attorneys attempted to salvage that agreement under really direct questioning from the judge.

HARLOW: Yes. That judge called the deal unusual, and at one point, even asked if it was constitutional. That judge refused to be a, quote, rubber stamp on the agreement. She asked if it gave Hunter Biden broad immunity for other possible crimes, including his business dealings in Ukraine and China. When the prosecutor responded no, Biden's lawyer snapped back that the deal was then null and void.

Let's bring in our CNN Political Correspondent Sara Murray. Sara, how did this happen and where does it go now?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Look, this is not the day anyone was expecting to have in court. As you pointed out, Hunter Biden showed up at the Delaware courthouse, federal court with his legal team expecting to plead guilty with to two misdemeanor tax crimes and to strike this deal where he would complete program to avoid a felony gun charge.

But as the judge was kicking the tires of what was in this plea deal, things started to fall apart. And I want to read to you a part of this proposed plea deal that was obtained by Politico. CNN has not verified that it's the final version, but it gets to one of the issues here, which is the scope of the deal. And this proposed agreement says the United States agrees not to criminally prosecute Biden outside of the terms of this agreement for any federal crimes encompassed by the attached statement of facts. This agreement does not provide any protection against prosecution for any future conduct by Biden or by any of his affiliated businesses.

So, the judge is asking prosecutors, you know, is this an ongoing investigation, and prosecutors say, yes. They established that, you know, they couldn't charge hunter Biden with other tax crimes because of this plea deal, but she asked, could you potentially charge him with something like a foreign lobbying violation. And prosecutors say, yes, they could. And that's the point where Hunter Biden's lawyers say, if that's the case, this deal is off.

So, the court took a recess. The prosecutors, the defense team came together, hashed it out, came back in and said, okay, look, we think we do actually have a deal. There is an agreement where prosecutors are not going to come after Hunter Biden for tax offenses over five years, for drug issues, for this firearm offense.

And then, again, the judge starts asking more questions about this deal and especially on this gun agreement. She begins to have concerns about the structure of it and whether it's legally sound and ultimately says, I'm not going to accept or reject this deal, but I'm going to put it on hold. I'm going to give both sides 30 days to respond and to give me more answers to some of my questions and concern, and, ultimately, Hunter Biden ends up pleading not guilty as a formality while this is all on hold, guys.

HILL: And what is the sense there, Sara, sort of from both sides? Is there a feeling that they're going to be able to come to some sort of agreement?

MURRAY: I mean, I think they're certainly going to try to answer the judge's questions, assuage her concerns, maybe tweak the structure of the deal, if they need to, in order to make her feel more comfortable about signing off on it.

But, look, based on the way things went down yesterday, you can't rule out the possibility that this is the kind of thing that could head towards a trial, which is what's going to happen if they can't actually reach an agreement that the prosecution and the defense can sign off on and that the judge is comfortable with.

[07:05:06]

HILL: Sara Murray, I appreciate it, thank you.

MURRAY: Thanks.

HARLOW: Well, hanging over yesterday's plea hearing were recent claims from two IRS whistleblowers who helped lead the investigation of hunter Biden, and they have testified that the Justice Department gave preferential treatment, they believe, to the president's son.

Republican Congressman Jim Jordan actually credited the whistleblowers for the collapse of the plea deal yesterday, but that's not what happened in court. The judge, the DOJ, and Hunter Biden's attorneys all agreed that the judge didn't have the power to order the prosecutors to redo their probe or considered charging decisions if she thought the investigation was lacking. Still, here's what Jordan said.

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REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): But I think it's all (INAUDIBLE) and the fact that their testimony has not been consistent, unlike the White House and their story.

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HILL: I want to play for you now what one of those IRS whistleblowers told Congress under oath last week.

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JOSEPH ZIEGLER, IRS WHISTLEBLOWER: It appeared to me, based on what I experienced, that the U.S. attorney in Delaware in our investigation was constantly hamstrung, limited and marginalized by DOJ officials as well as other U.S. attorneys. I still think that a special counsel is necessary for this investigation.

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HARLOW: That was Joseph Ziegler. He joins us now. He was the lead IRS case agent on the Hunter Biden investigation. We should note, he also says he grew up in a conservative household but now identifies as a Democrat with, in his words, middle of the road views. We appreciate your time this morning.

ZIEGLER: I appreciate you having me on your show.

HARLOW: What is your reaction to the plea deal being put on hold?

ZIEGLER: Yes. So, I think based on the judge's reaction and what happened yesterday that she acted impartial. She acted independent. I think it showed that the prosecution rushed this agreement through and mismanaged the situation. And he could have gotten off with an easy deal. But with the judge and her reaction, saying this is not normal, I think it's important that people see that, hey, this -- there's -- the judicial system is working, and you have someone that is looking at what is happening here, and they're seeing that this is not normal and that we have to treat everyone the same.

HARLOW: It is possible that they work this out in the next 30 days and that Hunter Biden does plead to two misdemeanors and deferring on a gun charge. That's possible while if his attorneys agree that the other things can remain open.

You asked for a special counsel in your testimony. Chris Christie, Republican presidential candidate, agrees with you. He said yesterday at this point he thinks we need one. What do you believe a special counsel could do that Trump-appointed U.S. Attorney David Weiss can't do?

ZIEGLER: So -- and it's clear from David Weiss' most recent letter. He only has ultimate authority in his judicial district, the district of Delaware. So, if there are crimes that are occurring, so offshoot investigations, these spinoffs, the ongoing investigation, and if those crimes are venued elsewhere, according to his letter, he only has authority in the district of Delaware, and he was told that he would be given that authority to pursue charges outside of there, but there's no letter. There's no document. There's nothing that's there that indicates that he has that power to do that. And that should concern people.

HARLOW: Joseph, you're talking about the June 7th letter that he wrote to members of Congress. Let me read that in part, the part that you're referring to. I have been granted ultimate authority over this matter, including the responsibility for deciding where, when and whether to file charges, that's key, where, when and whether to file charges, and for making decisions necessary to preserve the integrity of the prosecution.

What specific avenues of investigation do you want pursued that you believe were prevented?

ZIEGLER: So, again, as far as this investigation goes and a part of our testimony, we did not follow the normal process. We did not follow normal investigative leads that we would normally want to follow as part of a tax investigation.

Tax investigations are quite complex. We interview a lot of witnesses. You have to follow the money. An example in my testimony was President Joe Biden's sister, Valerie Owens. There was financial transactions. We were not allowed to go and interview that witness.

HARLOW: Who told you not to?

ZIEGLER: So, that was handed down to us from the assigned prosecutors.

And I think one thing that came up yesterday from the judge --

HARLOW: From who specifically?

ZIEGLER: So, that came down from the assigned prosecutor, so either AUSA Leslie Wolf, Department of Justice Tax Attorney Mark Daly, so the people who were working on our investigation with us.

HARLOW: You have questioned whether David Weiss had full authority.

[07:10:02]

And in that part of the letter I read to you, he believes, and he said to Congress in this letter, that he does. Do you believe that someone stopped David Weiss?

ZIEGLER: So, all I can go back to is what we stated in our testimony. We know that the Department of Justice went to the D.C. U.S. Attorney's Office to bring the 2014 and 2015 felony and misdemeanor tax charges there. They said no.

We also know that he went to the District of California, a President Biden appointed U.S. attorney, to charge that case, the felony and misdemeanor charges there. He was told, no. So, all along, we're trying to bring these charges in the different venues.

HARLOW: The response to that has been -- that has been contested, that assertion that he went elsewhere and was prevented by the attorney general.

This case, as you well know, because you were lead on it, for two years, this investigation went on under the Trump administration, and Bill Barr, in December of 2020, said this about it. He said, I think, to the extent there's an investigation, I think it's being handled responsibly and professionally. He went on to say that he sees no reason to appoint a special counsel. Why was this not charged in those two years? And do you disagree with what Bill Barr asserted there?

ZIEGLER: Yes. So, I don't know what basis for that statement and I'm not going to speculate as to why. What I can tell you is that after D.C. said no, us agents on the team, including the FBI, we were trying to figure out internally how to bring on a special counsel. We already saw that there was improper things being done.

And as law enforcement officers, we make an oath to the office to do the right thing. I think that's so important. Regardless of your political affiliation, regardless of what your political beliefs are, we have to be impartial and we have to be fair to taxpayers, people that are paying their fair share of taxes.

And in this case, we wanted -- we thought all along that David Weiss was going to do the right thing for the right reasons. I can recall saying that so many times. But when he only charged two misdemeanor counts and did not charge the felony when the felony charges were recommended for approval, I'm sorry, we're not treating all taxpayers the same.

HARLOW: Two more quick questions for you. And, look, it takes a lot of guts. I just want to note this for our audience. It takes a lot of guts. I know you've said you're worried that your job was on the line when you came out here publicly to testify.

Two final questions for you. One is how do you know David Weiss and his team aren't doing that now? Clearly, the investigation is still ongoing.

ZIEGERLY: So, you are correct. I was removed from the team May 15th. I wasn't provided with the reason why. I don't know -- yes, I do not know that answer. But what I'm asking for is we need to have someone with independent authority, with full authority, that special counsel authority, that can charge that in venues outside of the district of Delaware.

HARLOW: The one thing I would just say about special counsel, so people understand the difference here, is David Weiss is a Trump- appointed U.S. attorney, has the authority to follow leads where they will take him and his team. A special counsel, the way that that operates, is they have to operate within sort of the four corners of what an attorney general sets for them. And if they want to expand the investigation, they have to go back to the A.G., get permission to do that and keep going.

So, there is the argument to be made that actually David Weiss has more independence here.

ZIEGLER: So, the fact that it's being stated that he has more independence, I would go to two President Biden U.S. attorneys both saying no to bringing charges in their districts and the charges not being brought. Like we said, it's in Department of Justice tax manual. It's in their tax manual that you have to charge the felony with a misdemeanor.

You have taxpayers who are right now in New England that were charged -- these are fishermen. It's a fisherman case. They were charged with misdemeanor and felony tax charges for failing to file tax returns. I'm sure that those people would like the same agreement that Hunter got in this situation.

And that's my argument is we have to treat people the same in our investigations and how we move forward those investigations.

HARLOW: And to the point that you're making, the allegation that they were blocked by other U.S. attorneys that has been contested by their office. Joseph, thank you for your time this morning.

ZIEGLER: Thank you so much for having me.

HARLOW: Elie Honig is back with us. Takeaway?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, really interesting. A couple quick things. First of all, what the judge said yesterday really doesn't touch either way, pro or con, on what Special Agent Ziegler said. The judge did not say this is a sweetheart deal that I can't countenance. The judge said the parties haven't agreed on what this deal is. I think that needs to be cleared.

[07:15:00]

I think the special agent made a really interesting comment here. You asked him, what specific avenues did you want to follow up on that you were prevented, and he gave you an example. He said the connection to Valerie Owens.

David Weiss has to answer that. Why was that --

HARLOW: He also said, who blocked him?

HONIG: Yes, exactly. He said what we call the line prosecutors. That's a really important question. David Weiss has not addressed that in his letters yet. If and when he testifies that, to me, is a really important the issue. HARLOW: What about on special counsel? I asked because I think we're going to hear that a lot more. And I sort of was trying to explain that a special counsel doesn't always give more leeway. HONIG: There's nothing all that special about special counsel. It's

essentially the same thing as a U.S. attorney like David Weiss is. In some respects, there's more independence from the attorney general, but in other respects that you pointed out, and a U.S. attorney actually has more freedom to explore those avenues. The question, which I think Special Agent Ziegler just amply raised is, were those avenues followed?

HARLOW: And are they being followed?

HONIG: Yes.

HARLOW: That's the question. Thank you.

HONIG: Very interesting.

HILL: Great interview.

New this morning we've learned that Wagner leader Yevgeny Prigozhin is actually in St. Petersburg. Hey, you know who else is there right now? Vladimir Putin. Yes, the man that Prigozhin, of course, tried to depose in an armed rebellion just last month.

Prigozhin was spotted, you see here, meeting with an African dignitary. This is on the sidelines at the Russia-Africa summit. It's also the first time Prigozhin has been seen in public inside Russia since he led that armed mutiny. In fact, he's only been seen in public once before, July 19th, when he was seemingly inside Belarus.

Ukraine is ramping up its counteroffensive. A military official says they're now committing the main bulk of forces to that counteroffensive. Ukrainian forces, though, still have combat power in reserve, this after nearly two months of what's been described by many as slow progress.

CNN's Natasha Bertrand joining us live from the Pentagon with more this morning. So, progress slow, what does that actually mean in terms of the progress that has been made, Natasha?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, Erica. This is really what U.S. and western officials had been waiting for. They had been waiting for the Ukrainians to finally commit all of these reserve forces, many of whom are trained in that NATO and U.S. combined arms warfare, to finally take part in this counteroffensive.

Now, essentially, what this means is that the Ukrainians have managed to break through some of those Russian defensive lines and some of those minefields, those very extensive minefields that the Russians kind of left behind as they retreated in certain areas. And now they are taking advantage of the fact that they have been able to break through those lines and they are going to put more troops essentially in so that they can try to make even more progress. And this is really significant because, again, this is what the U.S.

had been hoping that the Ukrainians would do at this point. They were operating essentially under serious constraints with regard to the very heavy minefields that the Russians had left behind.

And so they simply couldn't commit all of those reserve forces until they found an area and that kind of a narrow spot where they could punch through those lines and then essentially take advantage of the fact that they had been able to progress a little bit.

This is something that Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley said earlier this month was something that the U.S. understood. They understood why the Ukrainians had not been able to commit more reserve forces up until this point.

And he said that while the Russians had a very extensive security zone in depth, essentially, all of those defensive positions, the Ukrainians had not yet committed the combat power necessary to break through. Well, now, it seems that they have committed is the main bulk of these forces for this counteroffensive, Erica.

HILL: I also wanted to ask you about President Biden deciding that he would allow the U.S. to cooperate with the International Criminal Court's investigation of Russian war crimes in Ukraine. This is really, really important because the U.S. has sort of -- I don't want to say fought against that. I think those words are too strong, but there has been a push for it and there's been pushback. So, just put that in context for us, if you would.

BERTRAND: Extremely significant, actually, a historic shift. Now, the U.S. is saying that they are going to provide the ICC, the International Criminal Court, with the evidence that the U.S. has obtained of Russian war crimes as part of the ICC's investigation into that in Ukraine.

Now, this is significant because it marks the first time that the U.S. is going to help the International Criminal Court try to prosecute a country that is not actually a member of the ICC itself. Recall, the U.S. is not a member of the Court either.

And so the concern by the Pentagon particularly was always that helping the Court prosecute these kinds of war crimes against the Russians might set a precedent whereby the Court could then try to go after, say, American troops for alleged war crime carried out in Iraq, that precedent being set for prosecuting a country and people inside a country that are not actually a party to the Court.

Well, now the U.S. says, and according to our sources, President Biden has decided that this is simply too important and that the U.S. has really valuable evidence that they believe could help the Court hold Russian war criminals accountable, Erica.

[07:20:08]

HILL: Yes, really significant, and as you point out, historic. Natasha, I appreciate it. Thank you. HARLOW: So, this morning, there are really serious questions and concerns about Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell after he froze at midsentence during a news conference.

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SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): And a string of --

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HARLOW: McConnell stood there silent for 23 seconds before he was led away. And new overnight, we're learning from sources he has fallen multiple times this year.

HILL: There was also new information this morning about LeBron James son, Bronny. He, of course, collapsed, suffered cardiac arrest during basketball practice earlier this week. Dr. Sanjay Gupta is standing by.

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HARLOW: So, new CNN reporting this morning on Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell. He has fallen more times this year than we previously knew about. This reporting comes as the 81-year-old Republican insists he's fine, this is after he froze mid sentence for 23 seconds yesterday.

[07:25:01]

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MCCONNELL: We're on a path to finishing the NDAA this week. It's been good bipartisan cooperation and a string of --

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HILL: This is just the latest incident this year for Leader McConnell. Source is telling CNN in February, he tripped and fell in Helsinki while getting out of a car on a snowy day. He was there to meet with the Finnish president. That was just days before a fall in March. That one occurred at D.C.'s Waldorf Astoria hotel. He slammed his head, suffering a concussion and breaking ribs.

Then during a press conference in June, McConnell had trouble hearing questions from reporters, even though the senators next to him could hear very clearly. Earlier this month he tripped and fell at Reagan National Airport while getting off a plane. And yesterday, as you saw, he abruptly stopped speaking midsentence at the podium.

Joining us now is CNN Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta. So, Sanjay, when we see this moment play out, Scott Jennings was with us earlier, he said he spoke with Mitch McConnell last night that he sounded good. He didn't notice anything different. He has seen him since that concussion. But what struck me was the concern that we saw immediately, and rightfully so, and the number of people I saw saying he should go see a doctor right away. When you see this moment, what sticks out to you?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It was concerning. There's no question. I mean, I'm a trauma neurosurgeon. That's my background. So, I'm used to seeing patients with neurological events and something clearly happened. I think anybody could see that. I think his doctors may even have reviewed that video and come to their own conclusions based on his medical history.

But if you just look at -- it's maybe hard to tell the timeline on that, but it was right before 2:00 yesterday when this happened. And it was about 23 seconds where he essentially was speechless and staring straight ahead. And before someone asked him if he was okay, 32 seconds before he was let away from the podium. This sort of timing matters.

We know that Manu asked him a question about 12 minutes later and he said he was fine. So, whatever it was, he recovered pretty quickly from it. And common things being common, someone could be very dehydrated. They could have a medical medicine interaction of some sort. They may be feeling under the weather.

But you have to rule out more serious things, which is why there's concern. Was it a mini seizure of some sort? That can sometimes be associated after a brain injury, which is that concussion that he had back in March. Or could it have been a mini stroke, something known as a TIA.

Hoping it's not those things but the reason you get it checked out early is because you want to try and prevent it from happening again.

HARLOW: Could it be related to what we now know are multiple falls? I mean, most recently in March, he was treated for a concussion at the hospital.

GUPTA: Yes. I think it's quite possible. And, remember, it was even back in 2019 that he had a fall and he fractured his shoulder. So he's had many of these falls. And he had polio as a child, so he's had difficulty walking. So, the falls in and of themselves concerning, but you're right, that March fall where he had a concussion, needed care for quite some time, that was one of those things, again, from a neuro standpoint, you look at and say, that was a brain injury. Are there consequences or impact from that brain injury even months later, such as a mini seizure?

Again, he just needs to get it checked out. And he may have been seeing his doctors all along. They may not have been as surprised by that yesterday based on what they know, but he needs to get that checked out.

HILL: Sanjay, I also wanted to get your take. We're waiting for more updates on Bronny James. Of course, he suffered a cardiac arrest on Monday. But we have learned since then that he had a cardiac screening several months ago that came back normal. Is there anything that we can glean from that? GUPTA: Yes. So, first of all, this is interesting. Folks told me about the screening tests that Bronny James had as a prospective player. These types of screening tests typically aren't done at some on his age, but he did have what's known as a trans thoracic echocardiogram of his heart and an EKG, what's called a screening EKG.

And I can just show you, you know, when you're looking at the heart, you put an ultrasound on the chest. It's not invasive. You're looking to see if there's any anatomical problems with the heart, if there's abnormalities in some of the big blood vessels of the heart. And we heard that was normal. Also that snapshot, that screening EKG, we were told, was normal as well.

So, that's good news. You know, that in combination with the fact that he was in the ICU for a very short time, which indicates that the doctor thought he was stable and that his heart function was normal, another good sign.

[07:30:03]

They still need to sort of figure out what happened here.