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Indictment: Trump Employees Discussed Footage, Saying "The Boss" Wanted The Server Deleted; GOP's Tim Scott Rebukes Gov. DeSantis' Defense Of Florida Curriculum Suggesting Enslaved People Benefited From Slavery; GOP Candidates Descend On Iowa To Speak At GOP Dinner. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired July 28, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Donald Trump is facing new felony charges, including explosive allegations that he tried to get surveillance video deleted at Mar-a-Lago after it was subpoenaed. We're going to speak with Trump's former fixer Michael Cohen.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: All of this comes as the former president, of course, is pushing for a second term, set to speak in Iowa tonight. He'll be sharing the stage with other rivals for the GOP nomination. So the big question, will they pounce on the new indictment, or come to Trump's defense?

HARLOW: Nearly half the United States this morning under dangerous heat again as extreme temperatures spread to the northeast.

This hour of CNN THIS MORNING starts now.

HILL: This morning Donald Trump is facing new felony charges as this classified documents case against him grows. The special counsel now accusing the former president of trying to get surveillance video from Mar-a-Lago deleted, trying to get that video deleted right after it was subpoenaed. His long-time valet Walt Nauta and Mar-a-Lago's property manager Carlos De Oliveira are accused of helping in that alleged scheme, all of it happening last summer.

A grand jury demanded the video just weeks after Nauta alleged moved around boxes of highly classified documents to hide them from federal investigators and Trump's own attorney. Prosecutors say Nauta abruptly changed his travel plans after that subpoena, secretly headed to Mar- a-Lago to deal with all of this.

HARLOW: This new indictment claims that Nauta met with De Oliveira. They allegedly went down to Mar-a-Lago's security booth where surveillance video is displayed, and they walked around the property with a flashlight pointing out where the cameras were located. Just after that, investigators say De Oliveira brought the club's I.T. expert into a private room, and this was their conversation. According to what is written in this superseding indictment, De Oliveira told the I.T. expert their conversation should remain between the two of them. He asked how long that server kept footage, and the I.T. expert said he thought it was around 45 days. De Oliveira then said, quote, the boss wants the server deleted. When the I.T. expert pushed back, De Oliveira reiterated the boss wants it gone, and then asked, what are we going to do?

Let's go to our colleague, CNN political correspondent Sara Murray. Timing here, Sara, is everything, right?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it is. And as you look through this indictment, you can see what was going on that may have given these employees concerns about having so much of it caught on tape. You know, as you pointed out, Donald Trump is facing two counts related to this alleged scheme to delight the surveillance information, and we now have Carlos De Oliveira added as a defendant.

But let's look at the timeline. May 11th is when the Trump team gets this subpoena for any documents with classified markings. It's 45 days before we really get into the meat of this sort of scheme to try to delete this surveillance footage. But throughout May you can see these boxes getting moved out of the storage room. In the indictment, it says on May 22nd one box is moved out. On May 24th, three boxes are moved out. On May 30th, 50 boxes are moved. And June 1st, 11 boxes are moved. This is happening by Trump employees who are talking to Trump throughout.

On June 2nd, 30 boxes get moved back into this storage room by Walt Nauta, a Trump employee, as well as Carlos De Oliveira. That is the same day that a Trump attorney is going to come search that storage room for any documents with classified markings to try to satisfy the demands of the subpoena. On June 3rd, the government comes to pick up those responsive documents. They notice that there are these security cameras around there. And then on June 24th the grand jury issues a subpoena to the Trump team for the surveillance footage from those security cameras.

So let's dive into what was going on, on June 24, a little bit. So again, this is the day that Trump's team gets this subpoena for these security -- this new security footage. At 1:25 Trump's attorney talks to Donald Trump about the subpoena. At 3:45 Walt Nauta, again, this Trump employee, is informed that Donald Trump wants to see him. Less than two hours after that, Walt Nauta, who we know is traveling with Donald Trump all the time, changes his travel plans to go to Palm Beach. Instead of traveling with Donald Trump, he is very cagey about this situation. When you read the indictment, he is sending shushing emojis to people.

So it's June 27 where we really get into some of the meat about this alleged plot to delete the surveillance footage. That's when Carlos De Oliveira is told the footage lasts about 45 days, and he tells another Trump employee that the boss wants the footage deleted. So when you look over this timeline, guys, you can see why there were a variety of activities going on, moving boxes out of storage room that never make their way back in ahead of the attorney searching the storage room that people might have been a little concerned of being caught on camera.

[08:05:08] HARLOW: Sara, thank you for that, because it helps us really understand the timeline. And count 32 in this superseding indictment is about that document that got so much attention, the Iran potential attack plan. Prosecutors say they have it.

MURRAY: That's right. We have talked about this document because, of course, we obtained the tape of Donald Trump discussing this document with two writers who were working on a book about Mark Meadows as well as other staffers who did not have security clearance. But this added count against Donald Trump for willful retention of document is the government finally acknowledging we do have this document. We are charging the former president with retaining it.

Take a listen to how Donald Trump talks about this document when he is in this meeting in July 2021 in Bedminster.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: This was the Defense Department and him. We looked at some. This was him. This wasn't done by me. This was him. All sorts of stuff, pages long. And let's see here. I just -- isn't that amazing? This totally wins my case, you know? Except it is highly confidential.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MURRAY: Now, it is particularly notable that prosecutors added this charge now because, of course, since the tape emerged, since the initial indictment we have seen Donald Trump out there publicly saying that was all bravado, there was no actual document I was showing off to people in this meeting. Prosecutors making very clear in this new version of the indictment that there was, in fact, a document that they believe Donald Trump was showing people there.

HILL: Sara Murray, thank you.

Joining us now, Donald Trump's former attorney Michael Cohen. He's also the author of "Revenge, How Donald Trump Weaponized the U.S. Department of Justice Against His Critics," and the host of the podcast "Mea Culpa," also the co-host of podcast "Political Breakdown, Indictment Watch." Michael, good to have you with us this morning. As we look at this new superseding indictment, as Sara just went through that very important timeline there, what struck me is what allegedly happened with Walt Nauta shifting these travel plans abruptly, going down to Mar-a-Lago to talk to folks down there. In your role when you worked for the former president, is this something you would have been dispatched to do?

MICHAEL COHEN, DONALD TRUMP'S FORMER ATTORNEY: Oh, there is no doubt about it. This is so part of the Trump playbook that when I heard it on television it didn't surprise me at all. Everybody running around, you've got to take care of the boss, do what the boss says. You may remember, Erica, I had said on this program a long time ago when the indictments first started coming out that this is not -- this is not unusual for Donald Trump to want to get rid of documentation, to delete stuff. And the real question that we have to ask is, what documents does he

have? What documents did he show to people? You know, is this his id, is it his ego? Was it in order to be able to show off with letters like from Vladimir Putin or Kim Jong-un? And the answer to that is, no. And I stated that I believe that there's more nefarious reasons that Donald is keeping these documents. And I'm shocked and I'm appalled that there is still people that are supporting him when you must understand that he is placing our national security in complete chaos simply for his own personal benefit.

HILL: And if there is more, it will be interesting if in fact those come out. You raise interesting and important concerns, as you point out.

I want to get your take on a couple of other things, though, because as you say, this is a page right from the playbook. One thing that does stand out as rather unusual is a 24-minute phone call. Can you recall Donald Trump having a 24-minute phone call with someone? And if so, why would he stay on the phone so long?

COHEN: Yes, I have had 24-minute phone calls with Donald --

HILL: But when you were his attorney?

COHEN: It was sometimes personal, sometimes it was -- it was over issues that needed to be resolved. And it would go sometimes into lengthy discussion in terms of what he wanted done with pretty -- with real specificity, which is why it would take longer. I mean, 24 minutes or Donald is an eternity. It doesn't happen often. So it's, obviously, about something that is of real significance and importance.

HILL: So significant, but not entirely surprising to you it would last that long.

Loyalty, as many of us have discussed with you and so many people have also discussed, is key for Donald Trump. I want to go through some of what we learned in the superseding indictment which alleges that in the weeks after the FBI found the documents, in the storage room that Walt Nauta reached out to a Trump employee to ask, quote, "Someone just wants to make sure Carlos is good," referring to Carlos De Oliveira, who, again, is the new defendant now with the superseding indictment.

[08:10:06]

The employee allegedly told Nauta that De Oliveira was loyal and wouldn't do anything to affect his relationship with Trump. The information was then relayed, and according to the indictment, that very same day Trump called De Oliveira, told him he would get him an attorney. I know you've talked about what your loyalty to Donald Trump cost you. What would you tell Carlos De Oliveira in this moment?

COHEN: Sadly, I've made this statement to many different people, starting with Rudy Giuliani and so many others, Walt Nauta -- run. Carlos, run. Run as fast -- first of all, he is not going to get you an attorney. He is not going to pay for the attorney. You may have just seen that with the settlement that I just was engaged in. He is not going to pay for it unless you stay on message.

And if you stay on message. You will end up behind bars. There is no doubt about it.

HILL: Why --

COHEN: One of the things that Donald also doesn't understand is he doesn't understand technology at all. When he thinks that you can just delete it from the local server, what he is missing is the fact that there is another server, the main server, which was held at the Trump Organization property that somehow everything was downloaded, too. And the fact that he wanted to get rid of this information, which in law is called spoliation, after he had a subpoena, this is really damaging stuff. But it just doesn't seem to be damaging to that 36, 37 percent of the GOP loyalists that no matter what he does, they are standing behind him. I wonder if they will stand behind him if, God forbid, there is another attack on America as a direct result of his negligence.

HILL: You know, as we look to see how this plays out and what the reaction is, especially tonight in Iowa, you lay out the consequences that you have felt, obviously, from your loyalty, and what others have dealt with as well. How is it that Donald Trump continues to bring people into his orbit and to garner that loyalty? What is he providing -- maybe the promise of an attorney, which you say he is not going to pay those fees. What is it? What do you think he is promising people?

COHEN: Look, it's not as devious as you might think. The man is a cult leader, plain and simple. And he has managed to indoctrinate into this cult many millions of people, many millions of Americans who are parting with their hard-earned dollars to give to a billionaire so he can fix an old 757 or to pay his own legal fees or his own responsibilities. Why do we do it? Why I did it? I don't have an -- I don't really have a good enough answer to give to you that would satisfy anyone, myself, or even my family, that still ask me the same question.

There is something -- there is something about ourselves that we are following that I can't explain. It's something that you have probably need a cult expert to explain on what is it that they say and what is it that they do and what we're missing ourselves that causes us to stay in this cult.

HILL: Michael Cohen, appreciate the insight. Thank you.

HARLOW: Let's bring in CNN senior analyst, former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, Elie Honig, CNN political commentator and former Trump White House communications director Alyssa Farah Griffin, and CNN political commentator and former special advisor to President Obama, Van Jones. Alyssa, to you first, just because you worked in the Trump White House so closely with him, but your relationship with Trump was different than Michael Cohen, obviously, who has had litigation with him. Do you sort of second what you just heard?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, very much so. I am still shocked to this day how many people are loyal to Donald Trump. He has an air about him that kind of commands loyalty, it commands people wanting his approval. I was honestly very shocked when I went to work for him in the West Wing and saw how many people just wanted his approval. And there was lack of kind of wanting to advise him at times because you might get on his bad side. He is very good at keeping people in line, but also he uses incentives to do that. He has a good way of keeping people on the team and loyalty.

And this was by design, by the way, with these individuals. It's textbook Donald Trump. He is going to lower-level people asking to do his dirty work, people who aren't necessarily going to have the constitution to stand up to a former, maybe future president. And he knows what he is doing when he does that.

HILL: And as we watch this play out, what's interesting, too, with all of these new details that we're hearing, is how it is this playbook, right, that Michael talked about, that you are saying in terms of what you saw. Elie, does that figure in at all in this case into a pattern here?

[08:15:00]

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, so, it's so interesting when we consider the notion of loyalty because when we're looking at what is Walt Nauta, going to do? What is Carlos De Oliveira, now the new defendant going to do? The decision whether to cooperate with the government, which I've been on the other side of many times, is really complicated.

And it comes down to a sometimes a financial decision, a philosophical decision, a moral decision. And I think what Donald Trump may have recognized now, which Michael is a good example of is. It's really hard to break away from Donald Trump and sort of come clean and find yourself on the other side, because there's a penalty, right? Michael Cohen was attacked, Michael Cohen lost a lot of money, Michael Cohen, went to jail. Donald Trump hasn't as of this point.

And I think Donald Trump, perhaps made the calculation that it's going to be much harder for these guys who are maintenance workers at my staff, they're not going to have the means they're not going to have the motive. And so, it's safer if I do my dirty work through them, through people who are perhaps more headstrong, or better position like Michael Cohen. It looks like he may have had an adjustment in his strategy there.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Not only do you know politics inside and out. He also went to a pretty good law school. Mr. Yale (PH) what do you -- what do you -- what do you think -- what did you think when you read the superseding indictment, sort of on the legal side, but then also the politics of what this does in the party?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, I just wanted to stay a little bit with the human factor. I do think, you know, it's tough if you're just a regular everyday person, and you get a job with a celebrity, you get a job with a big politician. And all sudden, you know, your mom's proud of you, you got cool stuff to talk about Thanksgiving dinner, you know, everybody's asking you questions, and you're a little bit of an authority.

And then suddenly, that person gets in trouble. What do you do? The alternative is, I'm going to jump up back into the ocean of anonymity, where I don't have any professional standing and maybe don't have support, and maybe I get in trouble. The law comes after me and nobody is going to be helped me out, because my cousin can't help me and back up on me.

So, I think we sometimes we're tough on people who hang on to the -- to the rich and powerful. People read in People Magazine, all kinds of stuff, just trying to get a stiff, a little bit of celebrity, you know.

HARLOW: That's section interesting. Why not to interject but David Schoen who, you know, defended Trump in the second impeachment trial. Basically, he said that he believes that Nauta and De Oliveira here, this is overbearing to charge them in this way. Sort of gets of --

JONES: Look, I think -- I think you got to go after the little people to get the big people. In other words, I think that the one of the concerns that people have always the criminal justice system is. It's always the little -- the little people do the big time, and the big people do no, time. And so hopefully, we're going to be seeing something different in this situation.

HARLOW: Yes, something else --

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Can I?

HARLOW: -- know something about.

GRIFFIN: I think DOJ is going to need you and making this case kind of deal with the P.R. of that, because I could see how on the outside folks could look in and be like, this is just a maintenance worker. This is a guy who's getting, you know, cokes for Donald Trump, to communicate all the opportunities that they had to cooperate and to work with the Department of Justice and do the right thing.

But I mean, it couldn't have said it better than Van. There's a lot of pressure, and people have also seen how Donald Trump turns on people and can set a mob on you. It can have your life threatened, it can put you in a danger situation.

HARLOW: Like Michael -- like Michael Cohen.

GRIFFIN: Cohen, yes.

HONIG: Or Alyssa Farah.

GRIFFIN: Right.

HARLOW: Right. HILL: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

GRIFFIN: Not fun being on the receiving end.

HONIG: Yes.

HARLOW: Yes.

HILL: All right, appreciate it. Thank you all. Stick around. We will have a little bit more. Also tonight, we're going to hear from President Trump as more than a dozen Republican Presidential hopefuls would descend on Iowa for the annual and annual GOP fundraiser there.

HARLOW: One of those Republicans is Tim Scott, who responded yesterday to Governor Ron DeSantis's comments about, how his state new standards for teaching Black History include.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): There is no silver lining in freedom in slavery. The truth is anything you can learn, any benefits that people suggest you had during slavery, you would have had as a free person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[08:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: To Iowa, that's where former President Trump is heading tonight for his big campaign appearance his first big one, where he'll speak after facing these new charges, in the classified documents trial. He's one of 13 Republican candidates said to speak at the annual GOP dinner, the Lincoln dinner. Each candidate gets 10 minutes to make their pitch to donors with former President Trump taking the stage last. Jessica Dean in Des Moines, Iowa with more. Good morning. What do you expect tonight?

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, Poppy. I think we can expect many, many, many minutes of speeches, you just laid out the math there, 13 candidates 10 minutes each. But beyond that, I just want to give everyone kind of a snapshot of where this race stands in Iowa. Just reminding everyone, this is the first votes. This is where the caucuses will be in Jan -- on January 15th.

So, it's going to give us a good idea of where this race is headed. And there was a new Fox Business Poll over the weekend. It shows former President Donald Trump with 46 percent out ahead of everybody here in Iowa. Then, Ron DeSantis at 16, Tim Scott at 11 and then kind of everyone else. So, that really sets the stage for tonight to give you an idea of how much these other candidates aside from Donald Trump want to break through with these voters.

We've been following along with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, over the last day as he set out on a bus tour across rural Iowa, that's continuing today before this dinner. That comes after he had this reset of his campaign where he laid off roughly about a third of his staff citing budget concerns. His campaign officials admitting to some missteps in terms of messaging and fundraising.

And they're really trying to get back and focused here in Iowa. We heard from him, this message of electability. And really the only time he was talking about his chief rival Trump, is when he was asked about him by a member of the media and he said, look, I won in Florida by 20, Trump only won there by three. He's really making this case that he is someone who can win in 2024 in a general election by winning over independent voters. He talks about what he did in Florida.

In the meantime, the other candidates in this race are looking to see kind of how DeSantis is reset might affect them, might obtained a memo from the super PAC supporting former Vice President Mike Pence, who's had trouble getting traction in this race. They're really looking at what's going on with DeSantis is perhaps an opportunity for Pence, to be more aggressive, to maybe scoop up some of those voters that they believe DeSantis could be losing.

But again, this is very fluid right now. We are some six months out, a little less than six months out, Poppy and Erica. But with former President Trump's so far ahead, it's going to take a big moment for these candidates to break through and anytime they get together like this. They hope this is that moment.

And look, all eyes are going to be on the former President with all the news that we've heard in the last 24 hours. As you mentioned, Poppy, it's going to be the first time we're seeing him in person tonight. Since all of that, and it really just sucks up so much oxygen in that room, Poppy and Erica.

HARLOW: 130 minutes. Hope they get cut off right at 10 minutes each. Jessica Dean, thank you.

[08:25:05]

HILL: They say they're going to cut those mics, we'll see.

HARLOW: All right.

DEAN: Yes.

HILL: Keep your -- keep your stopwatch running and report back.

HARLOW: So, take control room those the meeting room were going in to break.

HILL: They're doing it right now. Former President Trump understandably railing against these charges on social media crying election interference, prosecutorial misconduct. Claiming his position in the 2024 Presidential election polls has made him a target of the Justice Department.

Our panel is back with us CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig, CNN Political Commentator, Alyssa Farah Griffin. And CNN Political Commentator, Van Jones. As we look at all of this, look, we sort of knew what the message was going to be Van, from the former President. They're attacking the Justice Department is corrupt. It does tend to help him though, we must say.

JONES: Yes.

HILL: Last we've seen, how do you -- I mean, what do you expect to hear from tonight? Can he leave this behind? What is the message?

JONES: Does he?

HILL: Why should he?

JONES: He's on -- he's on this pogo stick and having a great time with it. I don't know how he (INAUDIBLE)

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: My gosh. Pogo sticks blast to my fact to my childhood.

HILL: I was never able to master that one.

JONES: Well, Trump is master in this one. I mean, it's not hurting him at all. With the people he's most concerned about right now. And the general election is a long time from now. Look, you remember O.J. Simpson? This, you know, the guy was notoriously horrible stuff. Black community rallied around and why? Because not because we agreed with him but because we thought the people coming after him were terrible. We thought the LAPD was terrible.

And so, if you're trying to understand what's happening with the Trump base right now, and you're African American. Just remember back with O.J., like sometimes he's not that -- he's not your guy, you think, you know, your guy is wrong, you just think the system is even more wrong.

GRIFFIN: Now, well said I mean, a factor that you can't ignore, and all this is Donald Trump's continued standing in the polls is partially a result of the fact that his, the other GOP contenders are not taking him on directly. I should know Asa, Hutchinson, Will Hurd and Chris Christie, of course, are. But the main players and I mean, I've advised many political candidates, the idea that you wouldn't take your chief opponent being indicted and run with it and say, they can't win a general this is radioactive, he's going to lose to Joe Biden, but they're not.

So, I'm curious to see if there's going to be a change in the tone. If you're someone like Mike Pence, who has kind of struggled to get traction. And who did really differentiate himself on January 6, this could be a moment to say, I take National Security seriously. This is beyond the pale. We need to move a different direction. Any of those characters kind of need to, there's not some, it's not like rolling out a policy proposal is going to break through and they're going to somehow overtake Donald Trump. HONIG: It's interesting, and sometimes a little awkward to watch some of the candidates try to walk that tightrope on the issue of these ongoing indictments. I mean, there is the -- Chris Christie, who's unabashedly critical. But Mike Pence, for example, whenever he's asked his stock response is, Donald Trump was wrong. I did not have the authority to throw up votes. Right, but that's not really the issue.

I mean, that no one disputes that. But what's Donald Trump wrong with all the stuff he did for weeks leading up to January 6. Was he wrong to tweet about Mike Pence while the riot was going on? And so, there's this delicate dance, I can't quite do the political calculus, but from a legal perspective, I'm thinking boy, they're really tried to thread a needle here.

HARLOW: Switching gears here to someone we're going to hear from tonight, also. Senator Tim Scott and we've now heard his first response to report I think Politico asked him about what about Ron DeSantis, saying, there were some any benefits to slavery. Here's how Tim Scott responded.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT: There is no silver lining in freedom, in slavery. The truth is anything you can learn that any benefits that people suggest you had during slavery, you would have had a free person. Slavery was really about separating families, about mutilating humans, and even raping their wives. It was just devastating. So, I would hope every person in our country and certainly running for President would appreciate that. And listen, people have bad days. Sometimes they regret what they say. And we should ask them again to clarify the positions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Importance of hearing that from Tim Scott in this moment.

JONES: Yes, look, I mean, that's Tim Scott, you know, he's not afraid to talk about these issues, I think in terms of most people can understand. Probably, gives a little bit too much grace to Ron DeSantis. That's who he is and he's like, everybody has a bad day, sometimes you want to praising slavery. That will be more than a bad day. But, you know, it's deeply offensive. What DeSantis is saying.

Take, I don't know, child sexual predation and trafficking, which is something that the right wing is concerned about. What if I got here and said, well, you know, maybe your piano teacher molested you, but you learn how to play the piano. Maybe your football coach molested you'd be learned how to throw a football.

Would that be acceptable? I think people would be shocked to hear somebody say something that's stupid and tone deaf and horrible. But that's What DeSantis is doing, and I think it should be disqualifying the party of Lincoln. The party of Lincoln should not have somebody apologizing for slavery anywhere near them.

HARLOW: Can I just ask you because tonight's the Lincoln dinner and the campaign that Tim Scott promised to run as a positive one. It's so in contrast to some of the ads we've seen from other PACs, DeSantis's PAC, et cetera, Trump. But he's doing really well favorability.

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