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Trump Indicted on 4 Counts Related to Attempts to Overturn Election. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired August 02, 2023 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR/CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, everyone. It's Wednesday, August 2nd. A historic morning in America. Lots of new developments overnight. We're going to get straight to it.

[06:00:44]

Former President Trump is due in court tomorrow after a federal grand jury indicted him on four counts related to efforts to overturn to 2020 election. This morning, city and federal law enforcement agencies are gearing up for that appearance.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Also new this morning, we're getting a sense of Trump's defense. His attorney tells CNN his clint is protected fully -- that's their legal argument -- by the First Amendment and that he was acting on the advice of counsel.

We just heard from one of the unindicted co-conspirators in the case. That is Rudy Giuliani.

Also, new details this morning about the judge who will preside over this case. Judge Tanya --

MATTINGLY: Chutkan.

HARLOW: Chutkan -- Sorry, wanted to get that right -- as been randomly assigned. She's notable for a lot of reasons. She's overseen previous January 6th defendants' cases. We'll get to that and what she said, including this previously, that "presidents are not kings."

MATTINGLY: And the former President Trump's 2024 rivals are weighing in on the charges. Their reactions ranging from condemning Trump to condemning the Justice Department.

HARLOW: Also, we get to Georgia. The Fulton County sheriff says Donald Trump will not receive special treatment if he's indicted for election interference. He says, quote, "It doesn't matter your status. We will have mug shots ready for you."

All of that. This hour of CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

MATTINGLY: Third indictment. Fourth potentially on the way. And yet, it feels like this one is bigger, more consequential and means a lot more for the country, however it lands.

HARLOW: That's exactly right. It's about our democracy. And that's what we heard from Jack Smith, the special counsel, last night.

MATTINGLY: Yes. We are hearing multiple reactions from Congress, officials, from people across the spectrum. We're going to get to all of it. We have team coverage this morning.

CNN political correspondent Sara Murray is live in Washington, D.C. CNN reporter Alayna Treene is live in New Jersey, near the president's Bedminster golf club.

And here at the table, the experts: CNN political analyst and PBS "NewsHour" White House correspondent Laura Barron Lopez; CNN political commentator and former lieutenant governor of Georgia, Jeff Duncan; CNN anchor and senior political analyst, John Avlon; and CNN senior legal analyst and former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, Elie Honig.

I want to go first to CNN's Sara Murray in Washington. Sara, 40-plus pages, what do they say?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, to your point, I mean, this is the first time that the government is trying to hold Donald Trump accountable for what happened around the 2020 election. And around January 6th.

They point out that the peaceful transfer of power went smoothly in this country for 130 years until Donald Trump. They say he lost the 2020 election. He knew he lost the 2020 election, and he tried to stay in power anyway.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MURRAY (voice-over): Special Counsel Jack Smith criminally charging former President Donald Trump for his attempts to overturn the 2020 election and undermine the peaceful transfer of power.

JACK SMITH, SPECIAL COUNSEL: An indictment was unsealed, charging Donald J. Trump with conspiring to defraud the United States, conspiring to disenfranchise voters, and conspiring and attempting to obstruct an official proceeding.

MURRAY (voice-over): Federal prosecutors write, "The defendant spread lies that there had been outcome-determinative fraud in the election and that he had actually won. These claims were false, and the defendant knew that they were false."

And this morning, we're getting our first sense of Trump's defense.

JOHN LAURO, TRUMP ATTORNEY: Our defense is going to be focusing on the fact that what we have now is an administration that has criminalized the free speech and advocacy of a prior administration during the time that there's a political election going on. That's unprecedented. We've never seen that in the United States, in the history of the United States.

MURRAY (voice-over): His lawyer telling CNN he can see the trial lasting nine months to a year. Trump also took to his Truth Social platform to blast this latest

indictment, continuing to claim its purpose is to interfere with his 2024 presidential campaign.

MERRICK GARLAND, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Mr. Smith and his team, experienced, principled career agents, prosecutors, follow the facts and the law wherever they lead.

MURRAY (voice-over): Trump's six unindicted co-conspirators are not named. But CNN can identify five of them based on quotes in the indictment and other context.

[06:05:07]

The indictment focuses on five tactics they, along with Trump, allegedly tried to execute in order to overturn the election results, including: organizing fake slates of electors in seven swing states that Trump lost.

Second, fueling claims of election fraud to try to pressure state election officials to subvert the election results.

Third, trying to use the power of the Justice Department to conduct sham election crime investigations.

Fourth, pressuring then-Vice President Mike Pence to falsely alter results and delay the certification of the election.

And finally --

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're going to walk down to the Capitol.

MURRAY (voice-over): -- stoking tensions on January 6th, fueling the Capitol riot.

SMITH: The attack on our nation's capital on January 6th 2021, was an unprecedented assault on the seat of American democracy. As described in the indictment, it was fueled by lies.

MURRAY (voice-over): Investigators also obtained contemporaneous notes from Pence and documented a conversation on January 1, where Trump, quote, "berated Pence for opposing a lawsuit filed to try to authorize him to reject the election results."

Pence told Trump it was unconstitutional. Trump responded, "You're too honest."

The indictment also recounted a conversation between Trump and former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows where Meadows says Georgia election workers were, quote, "conducting themselves in an exemplary fashion."

One day later, Trump tweeted that the election workers were trying to cover up fraud.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MURRAY: Now, again, we have identified five of the six unindicted co- conspirators who are named in these court documents. One of those is former Trump attorney John Eastman, who was allegedly involved in helping to craft this plan where then-Vice President Mike Pence could overturn the 2020 election while he was presiding over the Electoral College on January 6.

In a very pointed statement, John Eastman's attorney says, "With respect to questions as to whether Dr. Eastman is involved in plea bargaining, the answer is no. But if he were invited to plea bargain with either state or federal prosecutors, he would decline. In fact, if Dr. Eastman is indicted, he will go to trial. If convicted, he will appeal. The Eastman legal team is confident of its legal position in this matter" -- Phil, Poppy.

HARLOW: Sara, before you go, another one of the unindicted co- conspirators in this indictment is Rudy Giuliani. He spoke last night to another network. Here's what he said. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: Violating the right of free speech as an American citizen. Never mind whether he was president or not. It could be anybody. It could be a homeless person. You don't get to violate people's First Amendment rights with -- no matter who the hell you are, no matter how sick you are with Trump Derangement Syndrome.

And this isn't the first time you've acted like an unethical lawyer. It should be the last.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Sara, your -- your reaction?

MURRAY: Very fiery Rudy Giuliani, I think, as you might expect.

Look, I think we're going to hear the First Amendment defense from Donald Trump's team and also from several of these unindicted co- conspirators.

If you dig into this indictment, I mean, you look at Rudy Giuliani. He's co-conspirator No. 1 in this indictment. They're not just taking issue with the things that he said. They're taking issue with his actions: the way he was pressuring officials in Arizona, in Georgia, and Michigan, to try to go around the legal process where we certify the electors and go to the Electoral College.

So this isn't just about a couple of comments that Donald Trump made at a rally or some of Rudy Giuliani's claims, you know, spreading conspiracy theories about the 2020 election.

HARLOW: Sara Murray, thank you for that reporting. We'll see you in a little bit. Let's bring back in our experts. Elie, to you first. Jack Smith knew,

it seems, that was going to be the defense counsel's argument. So that's why he gets to it on page 2, the indictment, right, and the defendant has every right, like every American, to speak publicly about the election, even to claim falsely that there had been outcome- determinative fraud. It doesn't mean you can break the law.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. There's an interesting, actually, note from the indictment. It's kind of rare to anticipate a defense like that.

HARLOW: Right.

HONIG: He puts it right up front.

HARLOW: The first thing.

HONIG: Exactly. And I think it's an important point.

Now, here's my problem with the First Amendment defense, as applied here. By the way, the First Amendment defense is a formidable defense. We do have an extraordinarily broad First Amendment, rightly so, especially when it comes to political speech.

But here's the problem. The First Amendment does not cover everything that may come out of a person's mouth. And one of the clear delineations is fraud.

If you use words to steal something -- to steal money from a bank, to rip off an investor -- how do you do that? You do that with words, by speech, by promising things. That's fraud.

And here, the theory is that's what happened. But the thing that was being stolen was not money but the election itself. So the First Amendment does not cover that.

MATTINGLY: I want to build off that a little bit, because I think intent, too, comes into play here, when you're talking about whether or not this was fraud via words that were used by the former president.

[06:10:08]

In this indictment, if you go through it, it has a lengthy list of officials who told Trump that the fraud claims were untrue. You had, you know, Mike Pence, senior DOJ officials, the director of national intelligence, the director of homeland security overseeing cybersecurity. I think we can pull up the list here real quick. It's a significant number. Just listen to this indictment.

By the way, if you don't necessarily want to read the indictment, they also said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. MARK MILLEY, CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: So, we're in the Oval, and there's a discussion going on. And the president says, I think -- it could have been Pompeo, but he says words to the effect of, "Yes, we lost. We need to let that issue go to the next guy," meaning President Biden.

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: I remember maybe a week after the election was called, I popped into the Oval just to, like, give the president the headlines and see how he was doing. And he was looking at the TV, and he said, "Can you believe I lost to this 'F'-ing guy?"

CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE AIDE: I don't think (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Like he can't possibly think we're going to call this off. That call was crazy. And he looked at me, and he started (UNINTELLIGIBLE). He said, Cassidy, he knows it's over. He knows he lost. But we're going to keep trying.

WILLIAM BARR, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I didn't agree with the idea of saying the election was stolen and putting out this stuff, which I told the president was (EXPLETIVE DELETED). And, you know, I didn't want to be a part of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HONIG: So, again, we see Jack Smith anticipating a defense, I think correctly, which is he was relying on other advisers. He believed what Rudy told him -- told him; believed what Sidney Powell told him. By the way, both now listed as co-conspirators in this case.

And the argument they're going to make is, not only should he have known. They make that quite powerfully. But those clips, he did know; he acknowledged it. That's crucial evidence.

MATTINGLY: Yes.

HARLOW: You -- People might not know you worked for Rudy Giuliani --

JOHN AVLON, CNN ANCHOR/SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I did.

HARLOW: -- back in the day when he was America's mayor of New York City. They're unindicted. And I'd like to get to the legal questions about that. But they're not -- they're listed as co-conspirators in here, Giuliani, as unindicted. Where do you think his role in this goes from here?

AVLON: Well, look, I think it's very clear that Rudy was directly involved --

HARLOW: Yes.

Avlon: -- with trying to overturn the election on Donald Trump's behalf, acting in his capacity as counsel. But again, there's no right to commit crimes. There's no right to try to overturn an election.

And that's why the First Amendment argument that Rudy so forcefully articulated in that doesn't fit the fact matter of this case. Again, this goes to the heart of democracy. This isn't a typical kind

of indictment. And it goes to the heart of democracy when the president of the United States, who's entrusted with upholding the Constitution tries to undermine it with these other individuals.

Who by the way, in other court documents have said that no reasonable person would believe their claims, after the fact.

So, this is a serious as it gets. And whether or not Rudy is ultimately prosecuted along with these other unindicted co- conspirators, that's -- that's, you know -- that's through the looking glass at the moment.

But the fact Pattern is clear, that they tried to overturn the election at any means at their disposal, including, I think, encouraging -- we know from Rudy, encouraging members of the Senate to try to delay certification, which was what the attack on the Capital was, in part, designed to do. Apply pressure to those people.

MATTINGLY: Laura, one of the, I think, jarring things about the Mar-a- Lago indictment was how much we didn't know until we saw the indictment, including the photos, obviously, and the thing that everybody thinks about. But I think a lot of the behind-the-scenes stuff, as well, tied to it was a "wow" type of moment.

Most of this indictment, people were at least generally aware of because of all the reporting; because of the January 6th Committee. What stood out to you as new, or something that you weren't aware of until you read the indictment?

LAURA BARRON LOPEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: A lot of it is clearly around the former vice president, Mike Pence. The fact that he had these contemporaneous notes, the conversations that he had with former President Trump.

Him also telling former President Trump, in addition to the laundry list of other officials, that this is false. Everything that you're saying is wrong, that I cannot do this.

And -- and also, the phone calls that happened on January 6th. Trump at 6 p.m. called two senators on January 6, as there was still rioting going on in some parts of the Capitol, to talk to them about, again, rejecting certification; to -- to not move this forward.

And then at 7 p.m., he was called by Pat Cipollone. The president was called, this indictment shows, saying that You need to call off those Republican lawmakers, that they -- you cannot be asking them to further obstruct this proceeding.

So it's details like that and conversations like that just -- that just add to that -- that picture that we had started to see already because of the January 6th Committee.

[06:15:06]

MATTINGLY: Go ahead, Poppy. HARLOW: I want your thoughts.

MATTINGLY: You're, like, bubbling over. I've got several pots (ph).

JEFF DUNCAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So I'm not an attorney, so I have a much more simple legal analysis of the indictment. It's 45 pages basically saying Donald Trump is an intentional liar.

His early signs of defense shows that he's just a natural dummy. He just couldn't do the math. And I happen to think maybe both are true at the same time.

But you know, this -- January 6th was tragic, but from my point of view, it wasn't necessarily a surprise. Right? You could see this feverish pitch playing out. You could see this coordinated attempt, when we were sitting there, getting pounded with crazy idea after crazy idea and that had this -- I say sophisticated. I almost feel like I've giving them too much credit.

But you would see somebody come up with bad idea, and then Donald Trump would tweet something about it. Rudy Giuliani or Meadows would get on a plane and go stoke the fire in the local -- have a rally.

I mean, you can see how this would just -- just sucked the minds out of these people all across Georgia and then all over the country, Republicans.

I would have thought it would have fixed itself by now, but apparently, it hasn't.

HARLOW: You agree, as a conservative who has stood up for the truth and the law. Do you agree with Judge Michael Luttig, one of the most revered and famous conservative jurists in this country, who Jamie Gangel got a statement from him yesterday. And remember, he's the one who had that now famous tweet, saying in the middle of all of this, Mike Pence does not have the authority to step in, Mr. President, and overturn this thing.

He said yesterday after reading the indictment, "These are as grave of offenses against the United States as a president could commit, save possible treason."

And he said, "The former president is neither a victim nor a martyr today. America is Donald Trump's victim, and Donald Trump has martyred America."

DUNCAN: Yes, I couldn't agree any more. We -- Republicans are letting Americans down right now by sitting here and fanning the flames of Donald Trump. Right?

We know exactly what the right thing to do is. We know it's to turn away from the lies and the failed record of Donald Trump and to move forward.

And politically speaking, this is a golden opportunity for Republicans. Right? There's no more statistical advantage than right here, right now to beat the sitting president. But we're going to just continue to step on our own toes.

I think this is a pivotal point, right? This is going to be an interesting opportunity for DeSantis or somebody else, a Nikki Haley, a Tim Scott -- Chris Christie's already doing it -- but this is a pivot point to just call Donald Trump out and say, It is time --

HARLOW: Scott did, in his statement, say -- and DeSantis said --

DUNCAN: Well, I'm saying they should. This is the pivot point. They should turn their backs on Donald Trump, call for him to step down. Move forward, put a forward-looking message that attacks the economy.

I mentioned this yesterday. Our -- Fitch downgraded us yesterday. Fitch downgraded us.

HARLOW: I know. It got lost in all of these headlines.

DUNCAN: But that is a major story. On Joe Biden's watch that happened. But yet, nobody's going to hear about it.

HARLOW: Because of what happened in this country on January 6th and showing the instability.

DUNCAN: Absolutely.

HARLOW: OK. Stay with us, everyone. Team Trump once again trying to discredit the indictment and use it to his political advantage. The latest on his strategy as he heads to court tomorrow.

MATTINGLY: And how Trump's many legal cases could disrupt the political primary calendar. That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:21:45]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAURO: The government has had three years to investigate this, and now they want to rush this to trial in the middle of a political season. What does that tell you?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That was Donald Trump's attorney, John Lauro, slamming Special Counsel Jack Smith's latest indictment of the former president. The Trump campaign now planning to lean into the same playbook they've used twice before, to claim Smith is charging Trump purely for political reasons and is unfairly focused on Trump's behavior over President Biden.

Our Alayna Treene is live in Bridgewater, New Jersey, near the former president's Bedminster golf club, with more.

Good morning to you.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning. Good morning, Poppy and Phil.

Yes, so I have some new reporting, essentially, about how Donald Trump's team had been preparing for this indictment.

They spent all of Monday and Tuesday expecting for this indictment to come; and lining up surrogates and influencers and allies to be ready immediately for when additional charges had dropped.

And as you saw last night, that's exactly what his supporters did.

I also know that Donald Trump had been speaking with his allies on Capitol Hill, including the House GOP conference chair, Elise Stefanik, strategizing about the best way to defend him in light of these new charges.

And as you said, Poppy, this is exactly the same playbook that we know Donald Trump's team likes to lean on, which is to argue that these charges are amounting to election interference, and to directly attack Special Counsel Jack Smith for operating within a two-tiered justice system.

Now last night, we did hear one potential legal strategy from one of Trump's lawyers, John Lauro, in an interview with Kaitlan Collins. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAURO: Our focus is on the fact that this is an attack on free speech and political advocacy. And there's nothing that's more protected under the First Amendment than political speech.

So at the end, our defense is going to be focusing on the fact that what we have now is an administration that has criminalized the free speech and advocacy of a prior administration during the time that there's a political election going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Now, Poppy, I don't know if John Lauro or his team is going to argue this in court or at a potential trial, but it's very clear that this is what they want to put out there into the public narrative.

And it's exactly what you'd expect Donald Trump to put out. He wants to convince voters that he did not commit any crime.

And I can tell you, from speaking with Donald Trump's supporters -- I spoke with many of them on Saturday as they were entering his rally in Erie, Pennsylvania -- that they do believe him that he did not commit any crime. And they're very much behind him and think that the Justice Department is unfairly treating him and targeting him for political purposes.

And so this is exactly what I think you'll continue to see Donald Trump use in his defense.

HARLOW: It's interesting, to that note, that Jack Smith encouraged -- Alayna, thank you very much -- everyone to read this indictment. I wonder how many actually will.

MATTINGLY: I love the optimism. Actually, it's very interesting. It's only 45 pages.

HARLOW: Double-spaced.

MATTINGLY: It's a quick read. I'll bring the panel back in. And Laura, I want to get to this point, though. I feel like, particularly with this indictment, regardless of your views on the indictment, the kind of tired and lazy way to go about this is Trump's people are still going to support Trump. And Democrats are still going to support Democrats.

[06:25:09]

The right way to go about this is to look at what's inside the indictment and what happened, and pull back a little bit. And I think my question is, is that even possible at this point?

LOPEZ: Among Republican voters?

MATTINGLY: Among everyone. To -- to get out of the -- to understand what transpired, at least as described and alleged in this indictment over the course of a six-week, eight-week period.

LOPEZ: I mean, I think if people really want to understand the entire scheme, which is what Jack Smith labels it as in the indictment, perpetrated by the former president, along with all these co- conspirators, then yes, they should read the indictment.

Are -- Is the American public going to read the indictment? I am a little skeptical that they are, that they're going to take the time to really understand all the elements that happened across these months in the leadup to January 6th and even after January 6th.

And especially, because I want to talk about something that Alayna said about the Trump campaign's argument around election interference. Because when we're talking about the heart of the matter, which is about democracy and protecting democracy and that this -- what Trump did threatened it.

Him, again, saying that this is election interference, in 2024, is potentially leading us down a dangerous road again.

MATTINGLY: Of course it is.

LOPEZ: Where we could see what we saw on January 6th, and other violence and attacks. And it also just keeps his base believing what they believe right now.

AVLON: Right. Look, this is -- it's not just gaslighting, to your point. Trump is threatening, right?

Part of the background music here is, if this process goes forward, you know, we'll have to see what happens with the next election, not only presumed denial of a loss, should that occur, but actually something, you know, but him saying that this process is illegitimate in a fundamental way.

We're replaying the same script. That's why this goes much bigger than partisan politics. To your point, we shouldn't retreat to partisan trenches. There are a lot of Republicans who are persuadable. They should read this document. If you're a self-styled patriot, and you have the obligation of self-government, then read this document, because this is something the Founding Fathers would have feared in a fundamental way: a sitting president trying to overturn an election on the basis of a lie.

DUNCAN: That's the spot Republicans need to play. There are persuadables out there. There's the sense of, we're just victims of gravity, and Donald Trump is going to win the nomination.

I think if I'm one of these candidates other than Trump running for president, as a Republican, I come up with a strategy of You know what? I'm just dumb enough to believe that Donald Trump is going to be held accountable for being what's most likely going to be a convicted felon in some sort of one of these indictments.

I'm going to go put a campaign that's forward-looking, that's energetic, embraces policies, hold Joe Biden accountable for a failed record. And you wake up in a few months, and hopefully, you've gained enough steam.

And if we're wrong as Republicans, we're wrong. And we'll learn from losing.

HONIG: Merrick Garland has given Donald Trump a talking point, though, because Merrick Garland wasted a year and half. Let's just remember that. It took him over a year and a half to appoint Jack Smith.

Jack Smith got this case taken up and down in eight months or so. And I know investigations take time. I know they had to have everything perfect.

HARLOW: We know a little bit about why he waited now, too, from good reporting.

HONIG: yes. I mean, look, I don't think there's a good reason for him to wait. I don't buy his excuses for wasting that time. It's gone now, and now this is going to land right in the middle of the 2024 election because of that.

HARLOW: OK, but if you play it back a year or so I hear you. But you maybe would have been in trial, then, right, leading up to it. I'm just saying, you would have been in it, in some way, shape or form.

Quickly, timing of this trial and what everyone needs to know about U.S. District Court Judge Tanya Chutkan. Because randomly assigned, but this is really interesting.

HONIG: There is currently a logjam with the two scheduled indictments that take us from March through July. The two already-indicted cases. Unless one of them moves, I won't see a spot for this case to get to trial. The judge has been very strong in her rulings relating to January 6th. She has given many memorable statements: "presidents are not kings" and the like. So good draw for the prosecution.

MATTINGLY: All right. Guys, stay with us. We have a lot more to get to here.

And then what could be Donald Trump's fourth indictment of the year. The Fulton County district attorney says her team is, quote, "ready to go" in their investigation into Trump's efforts to overturn Georgia's election results.

Next, we'll be joined by a former Georgia state senator, who's been subpoenaed to testify before the grand jury. Her interaction with Rudy Giuliani in 2020 that could contribute to that case. Stay with us.

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[06:30:00]