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CNN This Morning

Trump Hours Away from 3rd Arrest in 4 Months; Poll: President Biden's Approval Hits 41%. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired August 03, 2023 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. We're really glad you're with us. There's lot of news to get to. Good morning.

[06:00:40]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Very big day in Washington and a big day for the country.

HARLOW: Yes, a very big day in Washington. Let's start with "Five Things to Know" for this Thursday, August 3.

Former President Donald Trump set to appear in a Washington, D.C., courtroom just hours from now on charges that he tried to overturn the 2020 election and hang onto power. This is his third arraignment in four months.

MATTINGLY: And new overnight, barricades going up outside the federal courthouse. We've learned the Secret Service has done a walk-through of the courthouse, and law enforcement is monitoring potential threats. All as the former president's lawyers testing out potential defenses, citing the First Amendment, saying the former president was just listening to his lawyers, and saying he truly believed his own lies that he won the election.

HARLOW: But Trump's former attorney general doesn't believe that. He tells CNN, our Kaitlan Collins, that he believes his old boss, quote, "knew well" that he lost the election.

MATTINGLY: And 2024 candidate Mike Pence, former Vice President Mike Pence, says his former boss was, quote, "surrounded by a group of crackpot lawyers who kept telling him what his itchy ears wanted to hear."

CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

HARLOW: You hear this is a lot. But today really is a monumental day. I mean, the third time President Trump is going to be arrested, going in for an arraignment in four months.

MATTINGLY: And in Washington, D.C.

HARLOW: Yes, that's right.

MATTINGLY: The same courthouse where dozens upon dozens of rioters for the January 6th insurrection in the Capitol have been tried and charged.

HARLOW: Right.

MATTINGLY: Now the former president heading back to Washington, D.C., for the actions that led to January 6th.

HARLOW: Yes, that's right. Putting it all in context.

Let's walk through with what is about to happen today.

So security barriers are going up overnight as former President Trump gets ready to, as we were just saying, return to epicenter of his alleged plot to overturn the election, and he'll appear in a D.C. courtroom.

He is expected to plead not guilty on four counts. Those include conspiracy to defraud the United States. His fingerprints will be digitally taken. A mugshot will not be taken.

MATTINGLY: And we're going to get a preview of what Trump's lawyers are preparing to argue as this case moves forward. His claims of election fraud, that they will be protected by free speech; that he was simply following the advice of his lawyers; and that he truly believed the debunked fraud claims.

Our Kaitlan Collins asked former Attorney General Bill Barr about all three of those potential arguments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL UNDER TRUMP: All conspiracies involve speech, and all fraud involves speech. So, you know, free speech doesn't give you the right to engage in a fraudulent conspiracy.

I don't think this defensive advice of counsel is going to go forward, because I think the president would have to get on the stand and subject himself to cross-examination in order to raise that. And he'd also have to waive attorney/client privilege. And --

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: And what would happen if he got on the stand?

BARR: I think -- I think -- it would not come out very well for him.

At first I wasn't sure, but I have come to believe that he knew well that he had lost the election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: And we have team coverage from Trump's Bedminster, New Jersey, home, to the D.C. courthouse where Trump will be arriving later today. That's where we begin, with CNN's Katelyn Polantz.

Katelyn, walk us through what's actually going to happen on the ground there in D.C. today. KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well,

Phil and Poppy, Donald Trump would not be expected to be setting foot outside of the courthouse on these grounds that are so close to the U.S. Capitol, where he had that riot after the election, where he had the rally after the election that turned into a riot.

However, Donald Trump will be here in Washington, D.C., in person. He's going to be coming into D.C. There will be some minor or at least short-term traffic disruptions, we are told.

Right now the roads around the courthouse aren't closed, but there's not a lot of parking here. There's barriers up. And so it is going to be quite a fortress-like situation down here at the courthouse at the time of this arraignment, which is scheduled right now for 4 p.m. in the afternoon.

When this happens, Donald Trump, he's going to be brought into the courthouse. And he's going to be taken up into the very areas where he will be arrested and then where he will be presented before the magistrate judge to face these charges for the first time related to January 6th.

It's very likely many members of the special counsel's office will be in the courtroom with him. Jack Smith, the special counsel himself, he was in the courtroom with Donald Trump and his lawyers, sitting opposite of him, whenever he was arraigned in Florida in the separate case related to the documents. It's quite plausible we do see Jack Smith and Donald Trump in the same room again today.

[06:05:16]

Donald Trump is very likely to be sitting at a defense table. He very -- he very likely may not address the court at all himself, but his lawyers will. And he will be in that court. We're not going to have any photos or video of anything that happens inside the courthouse. That is how federal court works.

However, there are sketch artists that can observe it, as well as members of the public and the press, who will be able to see exactly what's going on at this hearing.

Expected to be very short but an important hearing, because it kicks us off into the road toward a trial after Donald Trump is arrested facing those charges.

And so a lot to look forward here today, right around 4 p.m.

HARLOW: Yes. Big question, though: when is that trial going to be? Before or after people vote in a general election?

Katelyn, thanks very much for the reporting in Washington.

MATTINGLY: Well, let's go now to Bedminster, New Jersey, where Trump is waking up this morning, ahead of his third arraignment. CNN's Alayna Treene is there now.

And Alayna, what are you hearing behind the scenes from what Trump and his team are doing to prepare for this moment?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, Phil. I am here. I'm here, just outside the president's former golf club. He'll be passing right near here later today as he heads to Washington, D.C., for his court appearance.

And Donald Trump's team has a pretty good idea of what's going to transpire today. This is his third arraignment in a matter of months. And so they know what they're walking into.

I think you can expect Donald Trump's mood today to be quite somber in D.C. He's very clearly unhappy with these charges and frustrated that he has to go through this process, I'm told.

Now I also just want to point out some things that have been happening behind the scenes here in Bedminster over the past couple days. On Tuesday night, shortly after Donald Trump learned that he was being indicted, he dined with FOX News executives at his golf club just near here.

FOX News president Jay Wallace and chief executive Suzanne Scott sat down with him and encouraged him to participate in their Republican primary debate, being held later this month in Milwaukee.

Now, my colleague, Kristen Holmes, and I have some reporting that he was noncommittal about his participation during that dinner. And that's really what we've come to expect with Donald Trump's posturing around these debates.

He's both publicly, and privately, floated skipping one or both of the upcoming two primary debates. And he's pointed to his commanding lead in the polls, as well as his front-runner status, for not wanting to share the stage with some of his rivals.

MATTINGLY: All right. Alayna Treene, thank you.

HARLOW: So this is Trump's third arrest in four months. The two previous indictments related to falsifying business records and the alleged mishandling of those classified documents.

But if you add them all up, Trump is facing 78 criminal charges in three different cases right now as he is the GOP front-runner. It's a first in American history, that's for sure.

Maura Gillespie, she's chief -- deputy chief of staff to former Congressman Adam Kinzinger and advisor to former Speaker John Boehner. She joins us, along with our political director, David Chalian, and our legal analyst and former federal prosecutor, Elliott Williams.

Good morning, everyone. We're so glad you're here.

Elliott, let's just start on the law of it all. Bill Barr just sort of knocking down, one by one by one, what the defense counsel for Trump seems to be putting out there.

ELLIOTT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: He really does. And, you know, in particular, it's the speech point, the free speech point, that the president was entitled to speak as candidate for office.

And certainly, candidates for office are entitled to have some of the greatest protections for speech. But the simple fact is, some statements can be criminal acts. Threatening someone else is a great example.

But also, as the attorney general said, all fraud involves some statement of speech. And because fraud is an element of what's charged here, you know, that's going to be part of it.

Also, this relying on advice of counsel defense is -- is really going to bite the president, should he try to use it at trial. He will have and be cross-examined. And every statement he's made to his attorneys, every conversation he had, is fair game for prosecutors. And that could be devastating to a defendant.

Now again, as we talked about yesterday, Poppy, as a defendant, he's entitled to -- you know, to make the case that he wishes. He doesn't have to, but he's allowed to make the case he wishes. But these -- these are all sort of risky and all have holes in them, I think.

MATTINGLY: Yes. That's an important point, because this -- we are seeing the federal government side of this case up to this point. We've not seen a defense other than what they've said on television lay out the details of how they are going to try and rebut some of those claims.

Maura, what was interesting when I was listening to Kaitlan's interview with the former attorney general, Bill Barr, last night. Frankly, it was all interesting to some degree.

But he was talking about the idea of evidence of fraud and that there have had been 2 1/2 years, no evidence of fraud. There's pretty much no way the president couldn't know, based on everything laid out in the indictment. Take a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[06:10:04]

BARR: Here we are, 2 1/2 years, and still they haven't come forward with any evidence. And in fact, as the indictment puts forward, you have Giuliani saying, Yes, we have a lot of theories, but we don't have any evidence. And that's a pretty big admission: No evidence. They wanted to overturn the election, and they had no evidence of outcome determinative fraud.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: And I think what's striking is so much of what we heard from Trump's legal defense team has been state of mind, what he actually believed. And what the prosecutors are saying are look at what he's been told repeatedly, over and over. And also, there has been no evidence still, to this moment.

MAURA GILLESPIE, FORMER DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF TO FORMER CONGRESSMAN ADAM KINZINGER: And it goes to the question about competency. Right?

So is he going to take the track of, I knew it was a lie, but I said it anyway. So you take that stance.

Or he's going to say, I truly believe it. And yet, all the evidence proves the contrary. So maybe he's not in the right state of mind.

I think at the core of this, though, Donald Trump decided to pursue his own passion and desire for power at the cost of our vote. And not just my vote, your vote, the American people's vote. That didn't matter to him. He was going to do anything at all costs to stay in power. And I think him putting his own personal ambitions over the bedrock of our democracy is the core of this entire, you know, indictment.

MATTINGLY: And specifically, at the core of the civil rights component.

HARLOW: Which is, I think, the most fascinating part of all this. Maybe the most complex but fascinating -- David.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes, well, first of all, just to this point about whether he knowingly was lying about this or whether he actually believed he lost, it certainly seems from the indictment that the prosecutors are going to attempt to make the case in court that he actually knew he lost.

Because they laid out -- I forget what the total count was, maybe 11 different people who went in and explained --

MATTINGLY: From his attorney general to --

CHALIAN: DNI, senior defense --

MATTINGLY: DNI, joint chiefs of staff. Jason Miller.

CHALIAN: Exactly. So they put this entire litany of people who explained to him that he lost. So it seems like they're going to argue to a jury that he must have known he lost.

HARLOW: But it's interesting Bill Barr, I think, said and some of the lawyers, that's going to be sort of the more difficult part for prosecutors is to really, really get into the mind, prove intent in those -- in the moment.

MATTINGLY: He said it was going to be complicated. But I want you to listen to what he said kind of compared to what Trump's lawyers said. Go back to back. And he thinks what Jack Smith hasn't shown yet. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN LAURO, ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: I would like them to try to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Donald Trump believed that these allegations were false. BARR: The government in their indictment takes the position that he

had actual knowledge that he had lost the election, and the election wasn't stolen through fraud. And they're going to have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt.

COLLINS: Which is a high bar, of course.

BARR: It's a high bar. Now, that leads me to believe that they -- we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg on this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: This gets at what David was saying. But to that point, should there be a general assumption that there's a lot more behind what is in the 45-page indictment, in terms of what the special counsel's office has right now?

WILLIAMS: I wouldn't say there should be a reasonable assumption. But I think it's -- it's probably likely.

And the attorney general's touching on a very important point here that everybody needs to have in their mind. What reasonable doubt means. And it's the highest standard in our system, in our criminal justice system.

And you really have to establish to almost near certainty that something is true.

Now, in the indictment, they list, I believe, it's one instance of the president acknowledging that he lost the election, and then a litany of points at which people seem to put him on notice. As you mentioned, high government officials.

Now, that litany sort of establishes this idea that he was reckless with respect -- recklessly disregarding facts or reality in -- in carrying out the act of fraud there.

But you know, but that can be particularly tough to prove.

Now, again, it is important to note that, in order to establish conspiracy to defraud the government, you have to have some act of dishonesty. And that's why all this focus on whether the president lost the election.

My father-in-law asked me about this very question this morning. Like, why did we care that he lied? Well, in order to get to that -- that first charge, conspiracy to defraud the government --

HARLOW: Yes.

WILLIAMS: -- you have to prove some act of dishonesty or lying.

MATTINGLY: Elliott Williams, your father-in-law wakes up very early in the morning. I appreciate it.

WILLIAMS: For the record, for the record, my father-in-law is in Hong Kong. So he's actually staying up late.

MATTINGLY: That's cheating. That's cheating.

Elliott Williams, thanks, man. We appreciate it.

Maura and David, stay with us. We've got a lot more to go.

HARLOW: This morning, we do have this really interesting brand-new CNN polling. It shows how many Americans actually believe Trump's election lies.

MATTINGLY: Plus, how the American people feel about President Biden and his handling of the economy. We'll break down all the numbers, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:18:38]

MATTINGLY: Welcome back. We have brand-new CNN polling this morning. It shows 41 percent of Americans approve of the way President Joe Biden has handled his job. Nearly 60 percent disapprove.

David Chalian, CNN's political director, is back. David, you've been combing through the numbers. What's behind them?

CHALIAN: Well, take a look at how stubbornly low his approval rating has been over time.

So you said, you said 41 percent in our brand-new poll, which is not a number any president running for reelection would want to see at this point in the presidency. But it's the fact that he's been sort of stuck there.

Look, in May, in March, he was at 42. It wasn't until the aftermath where Democrats overperformed expectations in the midterms, that he got a little bit of a bounce. But now he's settled back down here.

Look at this, folks, by party. And this is the number that I know is going to keep folks up in the White House late at night.

The independents: 36 percent job approval among independents. Again, it is there. It is constant. That's where it was in May. Independents were a critical part of Joe Biden's success in winning the White House.

And then take a look at where Joe Biden falls, compared to his modern- day predecessors in this job, at this point in their presidency. So in June or July of the third year now.

And you see that Joe Biden is down there with Jimmy Carter, Donald Trump -- Ronald Reagan is the exception to the rule there. The other guys are one-term presidents. Ronald Reagan was down at 42 percent at this point and had a pretty resounding reelection victory in '84. So I'm sure that the Biden White House would like to follow that Reagan model. [06:20:07]

But he is in a danger zone for an incumbent heading into the re- election.

HARLOW: Especially if it is the economy, stupid. Right? Especially that, right? What do the numbers show?

CHALIAN: So things are not good in terms of how Americans perceive the economy, Poppy, despite all these positive economic indicators that we've been seeing.

Take a look here. It's about 25 percent say that economic conditions in this country are very good or somewhat good. Seventy-five percent say they are poor.

Take a look at that number about economic conditions -- conditions being good over time. And you see here it's been a pretty dour mood for Americans about the economy for quite some time during this Biden administration right now.

Nearly a small, slim majority, 51 percent of Americans, tell us we are still in a downturn and that the economy is going to get worse. So that is a number there.

And then, I showed you his overall approval. Look at Biden's approval rating on the economy and on inflation. It is 37 percent approval on the economy, 30 percent approval on inflation. That's lower than his overall job approval, meaning the economy is a bit of a weak spot.

HARLOW: Yes. And we're going to get to the other really interesting point. But can you blame people when every time you go to the grocery store, still costs me more. I know inflation's getting better. I'm not arguing with the facts. But I'm paying more.

And it's really hard to -- expensive to get a mortgage now. So, like, these are two staple things for folks.

CHALIAN: There's no doubt about it. And as we know, perception is reality. Right?

HARLOW: Yes.

CHALIAN: So you can have all the good economic indicators, and this is what we, you know, learn from White House sources all the time. They are trying to have him out on this Bidenomics tour. Because they know they have a sales job to do to try to get Americans to feel better.

MATTINGLY: And they have a story to tell.

CHALIAN: Yes.

MATTINGLY: And they are convinced that, if people just recognize what's happening, they will understand and believe. And it's been a disconnect throughout the course of the last couple of years. Poppy mentioned that there's another poll, as well, some other numbers

that are fascinating. Which is asking if President Biden legitimately won the presidency. Sixty-one percent say yes. But look at the breakdown. Near 7 in 10 Republicans say Biden did not legitimately win. That's -- that's jarring.

CHALIAN: It is jarring. In fact that 69 percent number now that you see Republicans saying Biden didn't legitimately win, it's ticked back up here.

And this is the context. This was taken in the month of July, taken before the Trump indictment. But this is the context in which the president [SIC] goes to that courthouse today, in which that indictment exists for Americans.

To keep in mind that nearly 7 in 10 Republicans say that Joe Biden didn't legitimately win the election, that's why Donald Trump believes he's created, for himself politically, a successful alternate universe from the facts laid out in the indictment.

HARLOW: Maura, you worked with Adam Kinzinger, John Boehner. I know that they are not reflective of where sort of the Republican Party is right now, writ large, with Donald Trump being the frontrunner. But still, 7 in 10 Republicans is jarring to you?

GILLESPIE: Absolutely. That's jarring to me. Because I think about the Republicans that I worked for you, as you mentioned.

HARLOW: Yes.

GILLESPIE: The ones who I talked to on daily basis, part of the reason why I'm a conservative, and I can't justify that number. I mean, to me that just doesn't make sense to me.

But I think it also plays into what's happening right now and why Donald Trump is seizing on this election lie. It builds into this conspiracy, that he has been able to convince 7 out of 10 people that he won the election in 2020.

HARLOW: Do those numbers to you say they are more against Biden or for Trump? Numbers?

GILLESPIE: I see what you're saying. I think objectively, people are disappointed in what Biden has done. So it's easy to --

HARLOW: Say, well, he shouldn't been there.

GILLESPIE: He shouldn't have been there in the first place. And let's just go with what we thought was better for us. Because he's telling us it's better for us to have him in there.

Donald Trump doesn't have a plan. He has never really had a plan. As far as we can tell so far, his entire election -- his entire campaign right now is simply vendettas.

So unfortunately, he has not only lied to the people who support him and give them -- him their hard-earned money, but he's also setting them up for failure. Because he doesn't have anything to go forward with.

CHALIAN: And guys, just a couple of other findings in this poll that I think are telling going forward. There's -- the majority has little confidence or no confidence at all that elections are going to reflect reality in our society. That is a problem for a functioning democracy.

And then the country is about split in half, 50-50, about whether or not elections will be overturned for partisan purposes. The fact that half the country says yes, that that will happen, again, that shows a weakness in the -- the fundamentals of our democracy.

HARLOW: Yes.

MATTINGLY: It just gets to the thing that keeps -- should keep people up at night. This moment right now is not about getting to tomorrow, where it seems like the former president is most days. It's so much bigger than that. And how to dig out of wherever this is.

[06:25:05]

Because guess what? You ask Republicans on Capitol Hill who won the election, and they're being candid with you, maybe, maybe one out of every 50 says Trump did. They all know. They all know, and it's their supporters that they're telling.

David, Maura, thanks, guys. Appreciate it.

HARLOW: Thank you so much.

To this now: two soldiers injured in Russia's war. Why the Ukrainian army rescued both their comrade and their enemy. That's next.

MATTINGLY: Plus, the Pittsburgh synagogue shooter sentenced to death. Reactions from survivors, and the families of the victims, that's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: New attacks in Russian territory this morning. Russian forces shot down seven drones in an area Southwest of Moscow, calling it a foiled terror attack by the Kyiv regime.

Meanwhile, the Ukrainian forces leaving no man behind and showing that. Look at this. Rescuing one of their own soldiers, injured on the battlefield, and rescuing a Russian commander left for dead by his own unit.

The Ukrainians say, even though he was the enemy, he was human.

Nick Paton Walsh, live in Zaporizhzhia this morning. Good morning.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, extraordinary footage here of the intensity of the fight down in the South here. Now those drone strikes you talked about: Ukraine, it seems, trying to

hit Russia, Russia trying to hit Ukraine. And most of them intercepted. Part of this growing sense of violence and anticipation as the Ukrainian counteroffensive towards key objectives begins to build.

And here are two extraordinary stories of different fates on the front line.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALSH (voice-over): It is usually only the dead lying here, in the craters of Ukraine's Southern front.

[06:30:00]