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Washington D.C. Prepares Security for Arrival of Former President Trump to be Arraigned on Indictment Related to Attempt to Overturn 2020 Presidential Election; Former Attorney General Under President Trump Bill Barr Interviewed on His Opinion of Trump Legal Team's Likely Defenses for Recent Indictment. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired August 03, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:00:31]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. It is 8:00 a.m. here on the east coast, 5:00 a.m. out west. We're glad you're with us for a really momentous day at the nation's capital.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, in the nation's capital, also for the entire country, the start of something that I think is going to carry on potentially to, through an election. Everything matters right now.

HARLOW: It really does. Hours from now, former President Trump will appear in a D.C. courtroom. He will be arraigned for the third time in the last four months. Law enforcement officers put up barriers. They did that overnight, preparing for the former president's arrival. We're live right outside the courthouse.

MATTINGLY: And one of Trump's alleged co-conspirators is conservative attorney John Eastman. The criminal indictment alleges co-conspirator two attempted to implement a plan for then Vice President Pence to block certification of the 2020 election. One of Eastman's attorneys will join us ahead.

HARLOW: Also, three dancers who worked for Lizzo have filed a lawsuit against her, accusing her of creating a hostile work environment. Those dancers join us live this hour as Lizzo issues a new statement about their claims.

This hour of CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

Here is where we begin. In just hours, former President Trump will depart his Bedminster golf club in New Jersey on his plane. He'll fly to Washington for what is his third arraignment in four months. This arraignment comes after the historic indictment that came down Tuesday from the Special Counsel Jack Smith's team of investigators. It alleges Trump's involvement in efforts to undermine democracy and overturn the 2020 election. So Trump will arrive at the D.C. courthouse. He will be processed. No mugshot will be taken. Then he will appear before a magistrate judge. He is expected to plead not guilty, and this hearing means Trump is returning to the epicenter, very close to all of these alleged crimes, the federal courthouse less than a mail where rioters stormed the Capitol on January 6th.

MATTINGLY: Yes, also less than a mile from the ellipse where Trump spoke on that same day before hundreds of supporters telling them to, quote, "fight like hell" and calling for them to march on the Capitol. The barriers are up around the courthouse ahead of today's historic arraignment as law enforcement beefs up security. Trump's attorneys, they're already previewing potential defense strategies, citing the First Amendment, saying he was just listening to lawyers and saying Trump truly believed his own lies that he on won the election.

We have team coverage covering this from outside the courthouse. Let's start with CNN's Katelyn Polantz and Sara Murray. Katelyn, first, walk us through what we are going to see today.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Poppy and Phil, Donald Trump will be here in person for his initial appearance and very likely arraignment at 4:00 p.m. inside this courthouse. But right now, the scene is not particularly hectic. There is a lot of security around us and there is a lot of presentations that are taking place, things that are being set up to make sure that things don't get out of hand. But it really looks like quite a normal commute on a Monday morning or on a Thursday morning, and the type of day where the court will have some of their regular business going on throughout the day.

But whenever we do get into the afternoon for this 4:00 p.m. hearing, it is going to be quite a scene, at least inside the court. There are a lot of provisions to make sure the public and the media have access to see Donald Trump when he is in court. But there will be no photos and no video. There is going to be a lot of opportunity for the special counsel's office itself to come and witness these proceedings.

We did see Special Counsel Jack Smith in Florida at his appearance there in federal court physically be present for that. It's quite possible Jack Smith would be here again today in the courtroom with Donald Trump. But no photos, no video of him walking in the court. There will be sketches of him. And we do expect him to have a relatively short proceeding before Magistrate Judge Moxila Upadhyaya. She is going to be essentially just walking through what his charges are. He also may have the opportunity to enter his not guilty plea at this time.

But it really is quite a significant day in that we are so close to where the Capitol riot took place, and these judges, this courthouse, people in this courthouse have seen so many people come in as criminal defendants, so much testimony from metropolitan police, Capitol police, and other people who were harmed on January 6th, and now Donald Trump himself is going to be here facing those charges.

MATTINGLY: Yes, the threads that connect this together from the ellipse to the march to the Capitol the Capitol to the rioters in the Capitol being charged in the courthouse behind you, now the former president will be there today as well. Also, it's August. So the commute should be slow in Washington, D.C. We will see how it turns out in the hours ahead.

[08:05:04] Sara, I think the critical question for me is, what happens next? We have seen this two times already. In this case in particular, what are we expecting in the days and weeks ahead?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, in the medium term, Donald Trump is going to return to Bedminster later this afternoon. We're, of course, going to be on the lookout for any opportunity he takes to speak publicly about what happens today. In the past, we have seen him make these very bombastic speeches, use them to raise money, use them to rile up his base.

But I think when you look beyond that, this is someone who, again, is the leading Republican candidate for president who is now going to have to juggle three different court proceedings, three different criminal court proceedings on his calendar while he is trying to figure out how to run for president.

We have seen the last couple of weeks how expensive this endeavor has been for him to defend himself, to defend the people around him who have gotten caught up in these court proceedings, and also just logistically fitting in all of these various court appearances that he's going to have to do across these three different cases while running for president is going to be tricky. And I think we're going to continue to see his defense team make the argument that things should be pushed back, things should be delayed because of his candidacy. We will see how that goes with this judge here in Washington.

MATTINGLY: All right, Katelyn Polantz, Sara Murray, you guys have a very busy day ahead. Thanks, guys.

HARLOW: This morning, we were just talking about those security preparations, all those barriers put up overnight because the former president is going to be arraigned today. Secret Service agents, supervisors conducting a walkthrough of the courthouse. Law enforcement officials also monitoring, of course, online what people are saying, any potential threats, protests, et cetera. Trump will appear just blocks from the U.S. Capitol in the same building where hundreds of January 6th defendants have been convicted.

Our Shimon Prokupecz joins us here now. Good morning, Shimon. They are preparing for what, hopefully, will not happen. Any specific threats this morning?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: No, there are no specific threats, certainly nothing credible. It's the usual chatter that law enforcement officials see online that certainly they are monitoring and has them somewhat concerned, but nothing out of the ordinary surrounding, really, these events. We have now done this three times. Each city does their own thing. New York City, we saw really an extensive amount of security. In Florida, we didn't see much security.

But really out here in D.C., I want to show you a little bit, Poppy, they are taking this pretty seriously. They have dumpsters out already. They will presumably be closing off traffic because the street here that we're on, I want to show you, is where the former president is going to drive down and into the courthouse here just up the block. What we expect is for his motorcade to arrive here and then he will enter here on C Street, go into this area, and then there is a garage that they will drive him down into.

And so we will not get to see the former president walking into the courthouse. Once he gets here, he drives through that garage, he will be technically arrested. And so this is the street here. A lot of focus right now from law enforcement is on this street. This is -- it's now already closed off. You can see Washington, D.C., police, which are responsible for the security outside the courthouse. Of course, there's the U.S. Marshals inside and there are federal protective services, which monitor and secure the outside.

But right now, all the focus is on this area. They have closed this street down. They are not allowing people to park their cars. And you can see all of the law enforcement officials out here. They have placed these metal barriers here. These barriers, we are seeing it all across the courthouse here. And also, Poppy, we are starting to see some other security around the Capitol, which is pretty significant. The Capitol is just really diagonally across the street from the courthouse. So that is a concern for law enforcement officials here as well had morning. But so far right now what we're seeing are the preparations getting underway as we await the former president's arrival here around 4:00.

HARLOW: Shimon, thank you to you and your team.

MATTINGLY: Former Attorney General Bill Barr who served under Trump spoke to our Kaitlan Collins about Trump's third indictment. And you'll recall, Barr resigned at the end of 2020 after the election. He publicly rebuked Trump by saying he saw no evidence of voter fraud. Barr was also asked about the classified documents case and the two men accused of conspiring with Trump to help conceal those documents. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: These two individuals, Nauta and --

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR, THE SOURCE: Carlos.

BARR: -- Carlos are dragged into this thing. Their lives turned upside down by Trump to pursue this caper of his. And he leaves in his wake ruined lives like this, the people who went up to Capitol Hill, these individuals, many of the people who served him in government that got sucked into things. And he just leaves all this carnage in his wake.

[08:10:03]

COLLINS: Do you think he cares about that?

BARR: No, he doesn't care about that. Loyalty is a one-way street for him. (END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Joining us now, CNN anchor of THE SOURCE, our friend Kaitlan Collins. That was quite an interview. I don't know if I have ever heard him so candid and also saying all of these things that could be really important for prosecutors. What struck you?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR, THE SOURCE: I mean, it was amazing. As someone who covered, obviously, the Trump administration and Bill Barr when he was attorney general, and he is not someone -- he has been very blunt in recent weeks and months since the legal troubles have begun piling up for his former boss. But he doesn't speak out very often. And so when he does, and he took this moment last night to really cover a broad range of the legal issues that are facing Trump.

And he is someone who knows Trump. He was in these meetings with him. He watched how he led his president. He watched how he interacted with people who worked for him. And so that comment there, talking about how now these two co-defendants are ensnared in this indictment in Florida, and tying it back to what we're going to see today, to how Trump inspired people to go to the Capitol, was kind of this amazing moment to listen to Bill Barr and his assessment of that, which was really blunt, and saying that Trump leaves this path of carnage in his wake and that he does not care about it, he believes, and was kind of sending it as a message.

And I also asked him right after that if he had advice for Trump's attorneys now, given, of course, Evan Corcoran is another attorney who is also involved in the Mar-a-Lago case, and Bill Barr laughed out loud and said his advice for them was to get a lot of insurance.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: All conspiracies involve speech, and all fraud involves speech. So free speech doesn't give you the right to engage in a fraudulent conspiracy.

I don't think this defensive advice of counsel is going to go forward because I think the president would have to get on the stand and subject himself to cross-examination in order to raise that. And he would also have to wave attorney-client privilege.

COLLINS: And what would happen if he got on the stand?

BARR: I think, I think -- look, it would not come out very well for him. At first, I wasn't sure, but I have come to believe he knew well that he had lost the election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: I think what, Kaitlan, what was most interesting to me was, besides the length of the interview -- well done on that that and your team -- was how methodically he, and in a very concise manner, took apart various elements of the Trump legal defense. You are talking about the lawyers, what his lawyers have attempted to put up so far, at least that they are considering as his defense. But also kind of digging in on the case itself. Where, from your sense of things, did he think there were potential issues for Jack Smith and his team?

COLLINS: Yes, so I wasn't sure what he would say about the latest indictment for the January 6th case, because he had said previously he did expect an indictment to probably come there, but he thought there would be some free speech issues in that. And he said that he was impressed, is the word that he used, by this indictment, talking about how he felt that Jack Smith and his team were restrained, that they didn't try to take unnecessary digs, essentially, at Trump, he felt like in this, by talking about what he was saying during the riot and not doing anything, that instead they kept it to his actions and those actions of the co-conspirators who are listed there in the days around the -- of what happened on January 6th.

And so he had a really blunt assessment of what we have heard from John Lauro and Trump's attorneys about this where they've said he was just exercising his right to free speech. Bill Barr said that's not a valid argument. This other one that we have seen them kind of trot out, which was that Trump was acting on advice of legal counsel, particularly John Eastman, he said he doesn't think that would work because Trump would have to get on the stand and be cross-examined to use that defense, and he said he doesn't think that that would be successful for Trump because he said he doesn't think he can remember all the versions of events that he has put out about the election, basically, implying that Trump has been lying about the election and fraud, obviously, and that he wouldn't be able to remember what he thought at what time.

HARLOW: I think it's interesting that all of this comes a few days after we just found out that Trump's PAC spent more than $40 million from campaign funds on legal fees. And that's, by the way, before this latest indictment. Let's listen to Barr reacting to that, speaking to you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I find that sort of nauseating. This guy claims to be a multibillionaire, and he goes out and raises money from hard-working people, small donors, and tells them this is to defend America and to take care of the -- he didn't provide any significant support during the 22 elections. And a lot of this money seems to be going to his legal fees.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[08:15:00]

HARLOW: Nauseating? I just hear him use those words is stunning.

COLLINS: And he used nauseating twice, Poppy, actually, he used it here.

HARLOW: Yes, I know.

COLLINS: And then he used it describing Trump's behavior just about January 6 and reading through his behavior and this indictment. But on the legal fees itself, you know, Bill Barr is someone who is a lifelong Republican, he served in the Bush administration, obviously, he served under Trump.

And so, I just was curious what his view was because Trump is using a lot of the political donations he gets for these legal fees. And you're totally right to note that this is just a small snapshot of what we know, the $40 million. I mean, that's a period where we haven't, we've seen so much more of an uptick in activity in just the last week alone.

And Bill Barr to say, essentially, that he believes Trump is misleading people and these people who think they're contributing to his campaign, when really, they're helping pay off his legal fees. And noting, you know, Trump's vast personal wealth, that it's not -- it's not like someone who doesn't have money and needs help paying legal fees. He was saying he's not using his own money. He's using their money to cover -- to cover the legal fees here.

MATTINGLY: Kaitlan, you mentioned there, you and Poppy both mentioned the word nauseating, you said he said it twice. The second time, it was in reference, as he was describing Trump's criticism of the Special Counsel, I want to play that for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARR: To me, it's amazing that you read through the indictment and his behavior in that indictment and it's nauseating, it's despicable behavior. Whether it's criminal or not someone who engaged in that kind of bullying, about a process that is fundamental to our system, and to our self-government.

He shouldn't be anywhere near the Oval Office. And for him to be attacking a prosecutor who is investigating that with all the epithets and so forth, which he has no basis for, as far as I can tell, you know, is ridiculous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: I mean, on one level, I paused because the former President, when he was the Attorney General of the United States of America was attacking his prosecutors and his Federal Bureau of Investigation and other law enforcement entities. And he didn't say anything about it for the most part. But it was very pointed in cutting comments from last night.

COLLINS: They were, and he was essentially saying, you know, what Trump has said about Jack Smith, it kind of gets glossed over sometimes just because there's so much to talk about. But if you look at Trump's social truth, social feed. When he calls him a crackhead. He calls him deranged. He implied that he had something to do with the cocaine that was found in the White House.

And so, that's why I was curious what Bill Barr makes that. I mean, Trump has attacked every prosecutor that's ever looked into him in personal terms. And Barr was saying there's no basis for that. That he thinks that from what he's observed, Jack Smith is doing a fair job. He pushed back on people who say that the Justice Department is being weaponized against Trump saying this is, you know, of Trump's own making.

And he said he had no doubt Phil and Poppy, that if Trump is reelected, that he will try to use the Justice Department to go after his political opponents, something that Trump himself has foreshadowed. I mean, it was just a remarkably candid interview until you talked about how long it was.

It was not supposed to be that long. We were just going to do two segments with him, get his take. But he was so candid, and so blunt, in what he views about Trump. And he made clear that the reason he's speaking out like this is because he does not think Trump belongs near the Oval Office again.

And I know that we live in this kind of alternate reality where nothing seems normal. But to hear someone who is just the Attorney General for Trump, for the President of the United States coming out so harshly against his 2024 run is notable. But I will say, when I asked Bill Barr, what he would do, if Trump is the 2024 Republican nominee? He did not rule out voting for him.

MATTINGLY: That's wild. Also, I have to be candid, Steven (PH) -- Kaitlan, when I woke up and I pulled the transcript from last night because I was sleeping. And I saw how long it was. I was like, oh, yes, this was -- this had to have been good, because this was definitely not the plan. It really was good. It's fascinating and wide ranging as well. Kaitlan, thanks so much.

HARLOW: Thanks, Kaitlan. We'll see you tonight.

COLLINS: Thanks.

HARLOW: You heard Kaitlan interview. You heard Kaitlan mentioned Donald Trump's attorneys have said that he was acting on the advice of lawyers, particularly his Counsel John Eastman. What about that defense? Will it hold up in court? We're going to be joined by his lawyer. Next.

MATTINGLY: And new this morning, Lizzo responds to allegations from three of her former dancers who said the popstar created a quote, hostile work environment. We're going to hear from those dancers, just ahead.

[08:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: So, welcome back. We're getting a hint this morning of what Trump's legal strategy in court is going to be on this latest indictment. The former president's attorneys argued Trump's efforts to overturn the election were based on advice from counsel. Well, specifically John Eastman, one of his lawyers, and also one of six co- conspirators in Trump's indictment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN LAURO, TRUMP ATTORNEY: You have one of the leading constitutional scholars in the United States, John Eastman, say to President Trump, this is a protocol that you can follow, it's legal. That eliminates criminal intent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Federal prosecutors have a lot to say about Eastman. Listed as co-conspirator two in the indictment. That's their name for Eastman. It appears 30 times throughout this document. The indictment says co- conspirator two, quote, "Devised and attempted to implement a strategy to leverage the vice president's ceremonial role overseeing the certification proceeding to obstruct the certification of the presidential election".

The indictment says later about a meeting on January 4th, quote,"The defendant and co-conspirator then asked the vice president to either unilaterally reject the legitimate electors from the seven targeted states or send the question of which slate of" -- "was legitimate to the targeted slates legislatures".

Now, that same day the indictment also alleges Eastman admitted to a senior advisor to Trump that he knew new court would support -- no court would support his theory. It says, quote, "The senior advisor told co-conspirator two, 'You're going to cause riots in the streets'. And co-conspirator two responded that there had previously been points in the nation's history where violence was necessary to protect the republic."

Former Vice President Pence yesterday rejected that notion put forward by Eastman that he could pause the 2020 electoral vote certification.

Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Let's be clear on this point. It wasn't just that they asked for a pause. The president specifically asked me, and his gaggle of - of crackpot lawyers asked me to literally reject votes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Joining us now is John Eastman's co-counsel, Harvey Silverglate.

Harvey, appreciate your time this morning.

Do you expect your client to be charged?

HARVEY SILVERGLATE, ATTORNEY FOR JOHN EASTMAN: Well, first of all, he was, obviously, one of the unnamed, unindicted co-conspirators. I was quite appalled that they didn't name him since everybody knows who he was. Were they -- was it a phony effort to protect his privacy or what? But, yes, I'm 99.99 percent sure that it's Eastman, my client.

HARLOW: OK.

SILVERGLATE: OK.

HARLOW: And you think he'll be charged?

SILVERGLATE: Do I think he'll be charged? Charles Burnham and I -- Charles is the - is the main lawyer, he brought me on to the team because of certain targeted experience that I have in this arena.

[08:25:00]

We are preparing a memorandum that we are going to send to the attorney general of the United States sometime next week laying out the facts and the law and arguing that our client acted as an attorney advising a client, that the advice was lawful, and that Eastman should not be indicted. We are further going to say that if indicted he is going to trial. If convicted, he will appeal. This is not a case where there's any plea bargaining in the future.

HARLOW: OK, that's interesting. So, you're going to go to Merrick Garland and try to get your client not charged by - by Jack Smith.

SILVERGLATE: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

HARLOW: Look, Trump's attorney, John Lauro, is pointing at your client, Eastman. And here are several times, in the last 24 hours, when he said, Trump did nothing wrong. This was what his lawyers told him to do.

Let's play it.

SILVERGLATE: Trump did nothing wrong and he acted according to the lawful advice of an attorney. Now, I want to make one thing clear, I am not a Trump fan. I did not vote for Trump. I did --

HARLOW: I just want you to listen, Harvey, if I could, to what Trump's lawyer said. Here it is.

SILVERGLATE: OK.

HARLOW: OK, I apologize. Go ahead. We don't have the sound.

Go ahead, Harvey. I'm sorry, we don't have the sound. But you can respond to what Trump's attorney, John Lauro, has said.

SILVERGLATE: OK. I expected Trump to rely on the advice of counsel. And the advice of counsel in this case was perfectly legal.

HARLOW: So, you have no problem, and you don't view this as throwing your client under the bus at all despite these repeated pointings at your client?

SILVERGLATE: Correct. Correct. HARLOW: OK.

SILVERGLATE: This - he -- my client was the - was the attorney for Trump. Trump was -- is entitled to rely on the advice of the attorney. It was lawful advice. I have no problem with that.

HARLOW: Let me ask you about a few of the specific things alleged in the indictment. Alleged in the indictment is that John Eastman, your client, asked the vice president's counsel, Mike Pence's counsel, to break the law, in writing, that he did this on the night of January 6th. The night of January 6th, after the insurrection. Let me read from it, quote, "Co-conspirator two emailed the vice president's counsel advocating that the vice president violate the law and seek further delay of certification. Co-conspirator wrote, I implore you to consider one more relative minor violation of the ECA, the Electoral Count Act, and adjourn for ten days".

Would you concede that your client did that and asked the vice president to break the law?

SILVERGLATE: Yes, and -- no, no, I don't concede that he asked the vice president to break the law. He asked the vice president to engage in a minority view, very minority view. But there's an interpretation of the law here that is within the bounds of reason. Very few people would agree, but some people would agree. And you'll notice, by the way, there were no threats made. If there were threats made, that that would be a different story. He was trying to persuade --

HARLOW: Why --

SILVERGLATE: He was trying to persuade the vice president.

HARLOW: It's in direct conflict - it's in direct conflict with his own October 2020 document in which he wrote about the 12th Amendment, quote, "Nowhere does it suggest that the president of the Senate, that would be Mike Pence at the time, makes the determination on his own".

So, why was he telling the vice president to do it then?

SILVERGLATE: Because he had a client, he was making the best argument he could in favor of his client. I have had many cases where I have made legal arguments different from my legal arguments in other cases. He was a lawyer for a client. It is his constitutional obligation to do the best he can for that client's interests. And that's what he was doing. There was absolutely no crime involved.

HARLOW: Harvey, two more questions --

SILVERGLATE: People do not understand the role of lawyers.

Yes, go on.

HARLOW: I understand the role of lawyers. I'm asking you about these allegations made in the indictment.

In paragraph 18 of the indictment, it talks about what went on, the communication between your client and the -- and what happened in Arizona, the Arizona House speaker, a Republican, who we know is Rusty Bowers. Did your client talk to the Arizona House speaker and ask him to decertify the election and then, quote, "Let the court sort is out," despite saying that he, quote, "Did not know enough about the facts on the ground," in the state of Arizona?

SILVERGLATE: We'll concede that. But what is - what is illegal about that? Nothing.

HARLOW: What are you - what are conceding?

[08:30:00]