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Former President Trump Pleads Not Guilty to Third Indictment Involving Attempts to Overturn 2020 Presidential Election; Fulton County, Georgia, District Attorney Fani Willis Holds Press Conference on Pending Charging Decision against Former President Trump; Extreme Heat Still Affecting Large Parts of U.S. Trump Pleads Not Guilty In Election Interference Case; Trump's Next Hearing Is August 28th, Five Days After First Debate; House Democrats Call For Trump Trial To Be Televised. Aired 8-8:30a ET.

Aired August 04, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:01:03]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Morning, everyone. Top of the hour this Friday morning. So glad you're with us on CNN THIS MORNING. What a week it has been.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: And so much more to come.

HARLOW: To come, that's exactly right.

MATTINGLY: But this is going to be a very intense, very consequential months, years.

HARLOW: Many months, years. Sour, dejected, defiant, that's what we're learning in this new reporting about Donald Trump's mood, his state of mind after his third arraignment in just four months. Trump, for his part, proclaiming his innocence and accusing the special counsel of leading a political persecution.

MATTINGLY: And Indiana's near-total abortion ban appears to be underway despite court challenges to the new law. Some clinics in the state have already stopped taking appointments, forcing women to seek out-of-state options. Coming up, we're going to talk to a Democratic governor in one of those neighboring states, Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker.

HARLOW: Also this hour, the Labor Department will release the July jobs report. We'll get a snapshot of how the jobs front is in the U.S. economy in general after a pretty shaky week for U.S. markets.

This hour of CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

So here's where we begin, though. This morning former President Trump back in New Jersey after pleading not guilty to his third criminal arraignment in the past four months. This time the charges stem from his effort to stay in power after his 2020 election loss. And this next hearing soon, it's scheduled for August 28th, five days after the first Republican primary debate. That means Americans face the prospect of seeing a Republican frontrunner repeatedly going on trial throughout the 2024 election cycle.

MATTINGLY: And keep in mind, that doesn't even include what's happening in Georgia. The Atlanta area grand jury investigating efforts by Trump and his allies to overturn his election in the state is expected to meeting again today. The district attorney, Fani Willis, said she will announcement a charging decision by September. In a news conference last night, Willis talked about some of the ugly threats she has received in recent months.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FANI WILLIS, FULTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Very grotesque things. We are on family television. I don't even know that I like to say all of them. But "slave whore' is one of them. I'm receiving phone calls and texts -- excuse me, phone calls, emails, and communications that are derogatory in nature. They don't always state what they -- what the reason is that they're calling, but I probably have been called the "N" word more times in the last two-and-a-half years than most people combined.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Security barricades have been placed outside the Fulton County courthouse in anticipation of those potential charges. All as in Michigan a pro-Trump lawyer was just charged in the investigation that involves attempts by Trump supporters to breach voting machines in the state. Earlier this week, two other Trump allies were charged in the same plot earlier this week.

HARLOW: Let's begin with our colleague Zachary Cohen, he joins us live. Good morning. Great reporting on this all week. We are watching this play out in states all over the country. Talk to us about what we know now in terms of this allegation in Michigan.

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Good morning, guys. This pro-Trump lawyer named Stefanie Lambert is now the third prominent Republican in the state of Michigan to face state-level criminal charges related to what prosecutors say is a conspiracy so seize and access voting machines from across the state. Basically, they are accusing Lambert and her co-conspirators to trying to convince local officials to give them access or allow them to take, essentially seize voting machines from their elections office, which under Michigan law is illegal.

Now, Lambert is a fairly -- not a very well-known figure, but she is tied to someone who is under -- an unnamed co-conspirator in the Jack Smith indictment. She is very -- works very closely with Trump lawyer Sidney Powell. As we know, CNN has identified Powell as an unnamed co- conspirator in the Jack Smith investigation. So these are two very separate investigations, a state-level probe in Michigan and the federal probe. But there's interesting areas of overlap.

Lambert was also involved in a voting machine breach in Georgia. We've identified her as someone who helped Powell pay people to go to a rural Georgia county and analyze voting machines there, too.

[08:05:02]

So, multi-state effort that is part of the state-level investigations as Jack Smith files his indictment against Donald Trump as part of the larger federal case.

MATTINGLY: And Zach, just to be clear for people watching, obviously, you mentioned the difference between the Michigan case and Jack Smith, the special prosecutor's case. But this is also different than the Michigan fake electors scheme, right?

COHEN: It is. That's also a separate investigation at the state level in Michigan overseen by the Attorney General Dana Nessel there. And unlike Jack Smith's indictment, which really focuses on the people who were at the top, right, the Trump-level people who were organizing these electors, the state-level probe into the fake electors is charging the electors themselves and says they committed crimes under state law by signing those certificates by sending them to the National Archives and the Senate.

MATTINGLY: Zachary Cohen for us out of Washington, thank you.

HARLOW: Sorry.

MATTINGLY: No, that's all right.

HARLOW: Let's bring in our CNN political commentator, Republican strategist, former Trump advisor David Urban, and CNN political commentator, former White House senior policy advisor and national coalitions director for Biden-Harris 2020, Ashley Allison. Good morning to you guys.

DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good morning, guys.

HARLOW: What is your reaction to what we saw this week for Trump and how he responded yesterday?

URBAN: So, I mean, obviously, we could talk about it for hours. I think the interesting part -- for me, at least, about this, is we have the January 6th hearings and the run-up to those hearings and this indictment. What you don't see is really a specific charge about the insurrection, right. You see all the fake electors scheme, you see the preparation for that, you see going and calling these different states, but you don't see anything about the actual assault on the Capitol.

And I think that gives -- earlier in your piece as I saw David Chalian, you have an interaction about Kevin McCarthy and some of these Republican responses. And I think that not having that charge in there about the insurrection, about the assault on the Capitol, allows people to kind of say, listen, this is about something else. This isn't about that violent insurrection we saw. This is really about a dispute about how the election played out, right. That's why McCarthy is pushing back and saying it's like Gore-Biden, it's like Clinton, it's like others. It gives them space to do that. So it's pretty interesting to see that specific piece of that charge.

MATTINGLY: But doesn't that actually strengthen the legal argument? They are not trying to bring insurrection charges. They're bringing charges related to that, which I think has been an important point, because you could say Trump wasn't directly responsible for that. You can't necessarily read his mind in terms of his intent on walk down to the capitol, put pressure on you.

URBAN: I agree with you, Phil. I think that Jack Smith is a very smart prosecutor, knows what he can and can't charge, what he could get a conviction on. The worst this, too, is take a swing at a former president, not be able to land a punch, right? And I think that they felt -- I don't obviously know, but I think that they felt that if they charged something on January 6th, it would be a higher bar, much longer road to get there. I think they feel they're on much firmer ground here. But I think that there is no -- you can't defend the assault on the Capitol. You see those visuals, you listen to the people, there is no way you can stand and say, well, let me explain what I think is happening.

When this fake electors scheme is taking place, you'd say, well, listen, we had a dispute about the election. These machines, we were trying to seize the machines because there was fraud, that's what you're going to hear. In discovery, we'll see if there is a discovery, they're going to relitigate all these different little pieces --

HARLOW: Lauro said so. His attorney said we are going to relitigate every single piece of this.

URBAN: That's what you're going to see a bunch of, whereas, if we are talking about the assault on the Capitol and you see people beating capitol police officers with flagpoles and fire extinguishers, it's hard to defend that in any way.

HARLOW: Ashley, just, again, the fact that you are a former White House policy advisor, former national coalitions director for Biden- Harris 2020, Biden totally trying not to say -- not saying anything about this, the White House not saying anything about it. Merrick Garland being attacked by the right in terms of this. How does he run without addressing this when this sucks up all of the oxygen?

ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I do think it's important that President Biden stay out of this conversation in the legal realm because there is an implied firewall between the White House and DOJ. And in a time in our country where so many people do feel -- whether it's justified or not, do feel like DOJ is being villainized, the president keeping his head above water is really important.

The question to how he runs, well, he needs to talk to the American people about what he has done in the last two-and-a-half years and what he would do if he gets another four years. And I think he has a strong record to run on, whether it's about the economy or infrastructure or gun reform. So there is an opportunity to do that. And most importantly, he still need to govern. Our country is improving, but it has a lot to go -- HARLOW: I get -- I get not talking about the legal aspects of it in

the Justice Department. But the foundation of it is so interesting because this is the foundation on which Biden has rested so much of his prior run -- stability of our democracy and the importance of upholding that. That's what's interest to me.

[08:10:05]

MATTINGLY: Including the launch of the re-election campaign.

HARLOW: Yes, it's like that's what it was about.

MATTINGLY: It was also why they did better in the 2022 midterms.

ALLISON: That is true. But I think you can talk about the attacks on our democracy without going down the rabbit hole to talk specifically about this case. There is no -- to David's point, we all saw the images of January 6th, and we all know why people came to Washington, D.C., on January 6th, because the then-president, Donald Trump, put a tweet out. It's a fine line to walk, but I think the way the president has done it to date, he should continue to do it.

Otherwise, if he starts to talk about what the special counsel should do, what, you know, Merrick Garland's role, I think it gets too sticky, and it gives ammunition, really, to the Republicans to say, see, I told you Biden is trying to persecute Trump because he doesn't want him to be his opposition.

MATTINGLY: David, can I ask you, we spent a lot of time on Kaitlan Collins's very lengthy interview with Bill Barr, the former attorney general. He said some things that Trump's attorney has now responded to in terms of something I think is going to be central to their defense. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Free speech doesn't give you the right to engage in a fraudulent conspiracy.

JOHN LAURO, TRUMP ATTORNEY:. Laughable. Absolutely laughable. What's the fraud? Tell me what the fraud is. What's the fraudulent speech? Donald Trump, President Trump was out in the open petitioning the state legislatures, petitioning the courts. There was nothing fraudulent going on. This is absolutely protected First Amendment speech. For Mr. Barr to say that is a complete and utter ignorance of what the basic law is with respect to freedom of speech.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

URBAN: Well, I have a great deal of respect for former Attorney General Barr. I think he's probably correct. But this case is going to be really interesting, because it's kind of at the intersection of political activity, legal advocacy, and criminal conspiracy. It's where all three of those things combine, and the nuances between those I think are going to be really difficult to discern, and we are going to be -- this is what is going to be litigated. You heard the Trump lawyer talking about it. And obviously, it's been repeated over and over again in the media and print and television. So that's, obviously, their line. But we will have to see. I don't think that is going to hold lot of water. But if that's their argument, that's their argument.

HARLOW: Were you surprised to see how candid Bill Barr was on all of this?

URBAN: So interestingly, I was there in the green room with the attorney general before the interview and then followed up right afterwards. And I was. I have known him for a while. And he is a pretty candid fellow. He is not pulling any punches here. But I thought it was -- it was a great interview by Kaitlan. It was particularly insightful. And I think we may see him again at the trial, perhaps.

HARLOW: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Just real quick before we have to go, your response to kind of that argument, the free speech argument?

ALLISON: I understand it. And it kind of goes to what Kevin McCarthy has said before about Hillary Clinton and Al Gore. The difference is, is that at some point they took the legal -- Al Gore took the legal pathway to go all the way to the Supreme Court, and when he lost, he conceded. And Hillary Clinton within 24 hours conceded to Donald Trump. The problem is, is even the day he is arraigned, Donald Trump is still pushing the fact that he won the election. And so he did not. And that's why he is going to court.

MATTINGLY: Yes, they keep leaving out that the other two conceded in their line of attack.

ALLISON: That's right.

MATTINGLY: It's very interesting. David Urban, Ashley Allison, thanks, guys. Appreciate it.

URBAN: Thanks for having me.

HARLOW: More than 50 million Americans under these heat alerts still this morning. Many of the same cities that just experienced weeks of triple digit temps heating up again. The National Weather Service is predicting what they're calling oppressive heat across the south central United States, including Phoenix, El Paso, and Baton Rouge. Our meteorologist Allison Chinchar has the forecast. Good morning.

ALLISON CHINCHAR, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Good morning. Yes, nearly a dozen states under some type of heat alert in the short term, although these are likely going to continue into the weekend for a lot of these areas. You're looking at Phoenix still topping out at 115. That's about 10 degrees above normal. Las Vegas 108. Even Palm Springs topping out at 112.

And it's not just the desert southwest. Dallas looking at 107 today, also 10 degrees above normal. Similar for Houston, New Orleans. A little bit cooler in Nashville and Birmingham, but that's mostly due to the rain. We've had a tremendous amount of rain across much of this area here in the last 24 to 36 hours. There is even a flash flood emergency across portions of northwestern Tennessee. We have had nearly a foot of rain in just the last 36 hours. That has been triggering some evacuations in that area. And, unfortunately, a lot of this rain is training across the same areas. So that rain is going to continue to pile up as we go through the rest of the day.

Again, here you can see that tiny pink area showing at least 10 inches of rain has fallen in just about the last 24 to 36 hours. But it's because of what we expect going forward, the additional rainfall, that's likely going to keep a lot of these flash flood watches and evening warnings in place for the next 24 hours.

HARLOW: Allison Chinchar, thank you.

PHIL MATTINGLY: The former President Trump's action since the 2020 election had been unprecedented in many more ways than one. What does it all mean for the State of our democracy? That's next.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUBERT HUMPHREY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES: I'm sure you know that I have already called Mr. Nixon.

GEORGE WALLACE, FORMER GOVERNOR OF ALABAMA: I have just sent the following telegram to President Nixon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Governor Reagan in California.

WALTER MONDALE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES: Vice President Bush.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: President --

JOHN KERRY, SPECIAL PRESIDENTIAL ENVOY FOR CLIMATE: President Bush.

JOHN MCCAIN, FORMER UNITED STATES SENATOR: Senator Barack Obama.

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): I have just called President Obama.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I promised him that I wouldn't call him back this time.

RICHARD NIXON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES: My congratulations to Senator Kennedy for his fine race in this campaign and to all of you. I am -- I am -- I am sure -- I am sure his supporters are just as enthusiastic as you are for me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Every year since 1896, the loser of the U.S. Presidential election has made a very public concession speech, that is until 2020. Donald Trump lost the election but refuse to concede to Joe Biden breaking 124-year-old streak. And attend inauguration either, now to be clear, there's no legal requirement the loser must concede.

But Trump is accused of going much further than that. He's now been charged with plotting to stay in office raising questions about the strength of American democracy, which depends on a peaceful transition of power.

Joining us now, Presidential Historian and Pulitzer Prize-winning Best-Selling Author Doris Kearns Goodwin. Thanks so much for joining us. Is there any analogue to this moment? Just to start, 30,000-foot. What can we compare this to in American history?

[08:20:00]

DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: You know, the only moment we really can compare it to, the only other time that the peaceful transition of power was not realized is 1860. And one of the things Lincoln said about that was so what happens were the south loses the election, the Democratic Party lose to the Republican Party in the south.

And they decide they're going to secede from the Union, they will not accept that loss. And Lincoln said, if we allow that to stand, this is the central issue that their struggle is really about then, democracy will be considered an absurdity --

HARLOW: Yes.

GOODWIN: -- ordinary people cannot govern themselves. The only other time and every other time that the person who lost and what's so important about even playing those clips, as you did, is to show the human emotions that are involved. A person has been in an election for months, they're exhausted, they're so sad at losing. I mean, one of the things that Carter said, when he was in his concession speech, I promised I wouldn't lie to you.

But I can't lie, I must tell you now, I'm really hurt, this is hard. But on the other hand, I accept that I have lost. And he said, I've been in great chance to have some shaping of the destiny of our country, no man can ask for more. I congratulate -- I congratulate the winner.

I mean, we've needed that time and time again. It's what democracy is about, you know, you can either vote the guys in or you can throw them out. And the guy who's loses has to be able to accept it with humility and dignity only now, and 1862 times in our history.

HARLOW: Yes. But bringing up Lincoln, he also said in that debate, with Stephen Douglas, "With public sentiment, nothing can fail, without it, nothing can succeed." And you just look at where the public sentiment is now among republicans, and I wonder if that makes you worried?

GOODWIN: You know, Poppy, you're absolutely right. I mean, Lincoln said that, more important even than a law that has passed by the Supreme Court. More important than a Congress that is passing a law is public sentiment. And what he meant by that was not a snap public opinion.

What he meant was that at a certain point in the country's history, there's a settled feeling that comes upon the country, that something is right, and something is wrong, something doesn't meet the ideals of the country. That's what happened as the anti-slavery movement built up its momentum. So, that finally slavery was going to have to end. Once public sentiment knew that it was inevitable it was going to go.

Right now, the challenge is for the country, to build up an overwhelming understanding that what President and former President Trump has tried to do is wrong. It's against the ideals of the country. And I think that's why it's so important that the trial be on television, so we can see what's at issue.

That's why it's so important that we talk as we are this morning about what the peaceful transition of power means. It's not just a slogan, it's something that humanly has shown character of the people who've run for office, that they're willing at that hardest moment to accept loss. And if public sentiment can be changed, so far, there's a rock bottom Republican Party, that's not willing to do it.

That's still not the majority of the country, that the country has to organize at every level, to make sure that public sentiment changes, if it changes. And if it overwhelmingly understands what's happened. And if the trials and the indictments helped to do it as January 6 then. Then, we're going to be OK. If it doesn't, then Lincoln's worry will be absolutely my worry as well.

MATTINGLY: I think my skepticism is based on the last six years of public sentiment not shifting when you would think it would, based on traditional kind of political realities or traditional national realities to some degree. Why do you think a televised trial? Why do you think anything can change where the 35 percent of where Trump supporters have been or where a significant portion of Republicans have been due to the power that Trump has in the party, whatever change?

GOODWIN: I guess my hope is that one of the reasons why public sentiment has not changed, excuse me, among some of the Republicans is that there's alternative networks that are spewing out different facts. So, you're getting a different story in different places. But if a trial is there, it's going to be like in the old days.

When FDR gave a radio chat, 80 percent of the radios will be tuned in, it was the only thing on the air in the 1960s up till the time of cable, you had three television networks, essentially saying the same thing, the same facts, if not different opinions. But a trial will be watched, a trial will be there. You're not going to be able to change the facts of the trial, even though it could be interpreted differently.

HARLOW: Right.

GOODWIN: So, maybe that will allow us to have a majority looking at the same thing and making a decision on the basis of what's right and what's wrong. But that's hope, I've got to hope, you got to believe that things, you got to believe that.

HARLOW: One of the reasons why I always love Doris Kearns Goodwin, because she has hope. Doris, just finally, you want a televised trial, recast in the constitutional scholar at UCLA rights. U.S. v. Trump, that's the name of this case. Will be the most important case in our nation's history. You know our nation's history. You think it will be at least up to this point?

GOODWIN: Without a question. I mean, this really is a test now of democracy. I know that all sounds so abstract. But as I say, democracy is so simple, you have to accept that the people who lose accept the loss. And that's what allows us to distinguish ourselves from other people around the country, around the world.

And I think if this trial shows that was not accepted, and acts were taken to change the results of it, as a result of it, and that's wrong and against democracy, then it will be the most important trial in the country, bar none. This is a moment as important in our history as 1860 was, and it took a civil war to solve that problem when democracy was under attack.

And let us hope that we can do it through our own understanding education, truth its -- television is going to be very important. The internet is going to be very important how this is all discussed in these next days and weeks and months ahead, is going to be an educational process for the country. And it better come out with an understanding of what's happened.

So, we can really make a judgment. What do we as a people want? What is the character of the person on trial? What is the trial about? All of these things are essential, it's essential for President Trump as well. You would want -- we'd hope that he would hope that if he thinks he can make a change and in the public's opinion, that people who do not think he's done the right thing. It's absolutely a central happened before the election so that we can know that as we go to the election.

HARLOW: Doris Kearns Goodwin, that's your wise words as always. Thank you.

GOODWIN: Thank you, glad to be with you.

HARLOW: Indiana's six abortion clinics have stopped providing abortions. This is because of a new law in the state. We're going to be joined by neighboring Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker to talk about how that is impacting his State, ahead.

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