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Trump Charged in Georgia; Trump's Indictment Affects Political Campaign; Gwen Keyes Fleming is Interviewed about Fani Willis. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired August 15, 2023 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[06:31:02]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Well, former President Donald Trump is blasting his fourth criminal indictment, as, quote, "politically inspired election interference." He and 18 others are now facing charges related to efforts to overturn the 2020 election results in Georgia. In an interview with Fox News Digital late last night, he said the indictment was, quote, "tailored for placement right smack in the middle of his political campaign."

CNN's Alayna Treene is live in Washington this morning.

Alayna, I was watching your reporting come through throughout just about every hour last night of where the Trump team was, what they were planning on, what they were waiting for. Now that this has happened, now that the 98 pages are out, what are they doing behind the scenes?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Right. Well, they've had to deal with this three times before. They have a playbook that they have used with the previous indictments that Donald Trump has faced and they think it's working. And so they're going to continue to use that, I'm told.

And, I did, I spoke with many of Donald Trump's advisers, both in the leadup to that indictment dropping yesterday and after, and they were very prepared. They had been preparing pre-written statements. They had been talking to his surrogates and allies preparing them with talking points and really readying them for when potential charges were filed.

And then, of course, once we saw the indictment drop, we saw Donald Trump's allies immediately take to Twitter, go on - you know, span the airwaves and defend him. People like Jim Jordan, who said that he did nothing wrong, people like House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, who argued that this was a witch hunt and that the -- President Biden has been weaponized against Donald Trump.

And the president himself, the former president, Donald Trump, also, in a long winding interview with Fox News yesterday, also addressed these charges. He said, quote, "this politically-inspired indictment, which could have been brought close to three years ago, was tailored for placement right smack in the middle of my political campaign, where I'm leading all Republicans, by a lot, and beating Joe Biden soundly in almost all polls."

And again, Poppy and Phil, we have seen this before. Donald Trump wants to message this on his own terms. He wants to own the narrative here. And I think you're going to continue to see him talking about this, both on truth social, but in additional media interviews in light of these new charges.

HARLOW: It's interesting, a few days ago Trump said all he needed was, quote, "one more indictment to close out the election." Next week he may or may not get on the debate stage for the first Republican debate. Two days before he is set to meet the deadline to turn himself in, in this case.

TREENE: Right.

HARLOW: It's just fascinating how politically he'll continue to use this.

TREENE: No, that's exactly right. And I do think that, you know, his campaign very much does see the political advantages, at least in the short-term, of these charges. Of course, Donald Trump does not want to be indicted. This is massive legal headache. He recognizes, as does his team, that this is going to largely create problems for his campaign, at least from, you know, a scheduling and logistics standpoint, but also potentially, you know, as they look ahead to not just with primary voters, but if they are able to win the nomination. That's a far way off. But if he is, like, how would this play in a general election? They're very worried about that.

But in the short term, they do see the benefits. You'll see them continue to push this on fundraising, continue to talk about it. And I do think that eventually, if Donald Trump does appear in person for a court appearance, again, that's still premature as well. I think you'll see him give remarks and try to message on this as well after that.

MATTINGLY: It's a great point. You've had great reporting throughout the course of these four indictments. That's how they raise money at this point as well, those public appearances, to the extent he can speak because they need money, as we've seen with your reporting, and the FEC filings.

Alayna Treene, thanks so much.

HARLOW: So, unlike the federal cases that Donald Trump is currently fighting, this one in Georgia will likely be televised. That's right, it will be on camera. How cameras in the courtroom could play politically for the former president.

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[06:38:23]

HARLOW: Welcome back. Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis says the former president

and his codefendants must surrender by August 25th. That is a week from Friday. The former president could surrender any time before that, including, I suppose, on August 23rd, which is, by the way, the first Republican debate.

Let's talk about the politics of all this.

CNN political analyst, White House correspondent for "PBS NewsHour," Laura Barron-Lopez is with us, Republican strategist and former RNC communications director Doug Heye joins us, along with former adviser to President Clinton, Paul Begala.

Good morning to you all.

Gosh, Laura, what a week -

DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Good morning.

HARLOW: What a week next week is going to be. As we head into this, whenever Trump decides to turn himself in, at least that entrance, et cetera, will be on camera. But everything that happens in the courtroom, because this is a state case, including the trial, will be on camera. It's not the case for the two federal ones.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: That's right. And we can probably expect that former President Trump is going to use the fact that it is on camera to his advantage. And that this could certainly just simply help him in the primary - in the primary.

Now, assuming that that starts around the time that DA Fani Willis said that she hopes that a trial date is set, which is within the next six months, that could land around the Iowa caucus, or around the other early states when they start voting in February. And, ultimately, as we've seen time and time again with the last three indictments, that when Trump goes into the courtroom, when he's responding to these indictments, the GOP base rallies around him.

[06:40:01]

MATTINGLY: Paul, I want to read a part of Peter Baker's great analysis story today, which I think gets a the idea of Trump is able to somehow spin this to his advantage on the primary side, which says in part, "so the country must brace itself for what will surely be described as the trial of the century, which will be followed by the next trial of the century and then the next and then the next." And you chuckle for a moment when you read it, and then you think, ah, well, no, that's actually accurate and there is no precedent for any of these trials of the century.

And I think my question, and Poppy was getting at this, the idea of having this on camera, the idea of having someone like Ruby Freeman testify, we saw it from the January 6th Committee, it still seems to get lost overall, can that change minds, not core base supporters, but more broadly? PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right. I think it can. It can

among those independents that Trump has to get in order to get 50 percent, in order to get back to the White House.

First off, can I just say, it's an outrage that the federal courts won't have cameras in them. I mean can you -- the founders wrote into the Constitution that trials have to be in public. If we -- that meant the -- back then the pencil press could come in. That's all we had. It's insane that the federal courts don't let cameras in. This is -- these are our employees, these are our courtrooms. So, I'm sorry to get on my soap box here.

The difference here though is, Donald Trump has spent more end on the business - more time on the business end of a camera than probably even more than Ronald Reagan, than any politician in our lifetime. He knows how to perform on camera. The difference is, on his TV show, at his rallies, he's in charge. In this trial, the judge is going to be in charge. The jury - the -- and the viewers, we don't see anything that that judge doesn't want to let in. And I think that could really be frustrating for Trump. He's a - he's a guy who likes to control things. And I think it actually might not work to his advantage.

I think he's far better suited, by the way, skipping the debate on Wednesday next week and showing up at the courthouse to be arraigned and he'll show everybody that the ratings for a five-minute statement at his courthouse will be 100 times higher than all of the non-Trump Lilliputians debating. So, I think it's nuts for him to debate. I think he should just show up, be arraigned, and then have a media circus.

HARLOW: Doug, you're a Republican strategist. Is Paul right? Is the Democrat - the Democratic strategist right about what the Republicans frontrunner should do?

MATTINGLY: Giving - giving political advice to Donald Trump. Begala advising the Trump campaign.

HARLOW: Who knew.

MATTINGLY: Who knew.

HARLOW: Who knew.

MATTINGLY: Weird morning.

HEYE: Unpaid - unpaid adviser. How about that.

Ultimately, I do think he's right. And part of that is, you know, we've - we've seen so often that Republicans, not just are shy to be critical of Trump, but they actually shore up his message. And, you know, Phil, you're an old ballplayer. I'm reminded of what Yogi Bera once said, that when you come to a fork in the road, you take it. Well, if you're a Republican returning against Donald Trump, you have four forks in the road right now, or maybe 91 forks. This would be the time to take one of those forks and use it. We'll ultimately see if that do that or not. But I'm reminded of "Star Wars" and the lesson that it taught us, that

ultimately Luke Skywalker had to confront Darth Vader. He couldn't sit back and hope that the force or Hans Solo would take care of it for him. And ultimately what we've seen with these Republicans who are running against Trump more in theory than in practice is that they are depending on one thing that in politics you typically say, and Donald Trump is obviously atypical, hope is not a strategy. And so we'll find out next Wednesday as to whether or not anything's going to be different or not.

MATTINGLY: Can I just say, Heye just called me old -

HARLOW: I just almost said, don't call Phil old.

MATTINGLY: And then he just -

HEYE: O-l old.

MATTINGLY: And then - and then he went for the "Star Wars" reference, dating himself.

HARLOW: Yes.

MATTINGLY: So, I want to - I want to - I just want to put all that on the record.

HARLOW: Touche.

Laura, what --

BEGALA: Can I give some free advice now to Trump's opponents?

HARLOW: Yes, but then Laura. Go ahead, Paul.

BEGALA: And that is this. I gave Trump (INAUDIBLE). The killer argument against Trump is not, certainly not, he's a martyr, because then -- and it's also not he's a crook. The killer argument against him is, he's in it for himself. He's distracted. He's only concerned about his own hide, not about yours, right. I think that's the argument is that, when's the last time Trump said anything about immigration or all the things Lieutenant Governor Duncan was talking about in this interviewed with you, Poppy. When's the last time he talked about borders, crime, jobs, health care, the economy, China, Russia, nothing. And so I think that's -- if I'm in the Republican debate, I say Trump is like Pavarotti warming up to the opera. He's just me, me, me, me, me. I'm going to be focus on you, you, you.

HARLOW: My goodness. Yogi Berra, "Star Wars," Pavarotti.

BEGALA: There's my free advice for the rest of the people.

HARLOW: Laura, last word.

BARRON-LOPEZ: I mean, look, I think that one of the big things that is going to ultimately impact this election is clearly that the democracy argument is something that Democrats are seeing as being salient, the threats to democracy argument. And so that is something that I think we can expect them (ph). In addition to we've talked about abortion and all the other things that Paul laid out.

[06:45:03]

But the camp -- Biden's campaign sees the threats to democracy and their ability to still make that argument, even while President Biden is certainly not going to talk about the specifics of the case as in the specifics of the indictments against Trump, but they are going to continue to make that argument, which we saw in 2020, and which we saw him make after the January 6th insurrection.

HEYE: I have a Polliaci (ph) reference, but I won't use it.

HARLOW: No. No.

KEY: It's too early in the morning.

MATTINGLY: Doug - somebody cut off Doug's mic immediately.

HARLOW: We have to go.

Thank you, guys.

MATTINGLY: Thanks, guys. Appreciate it.

KEYE: Thank you.

HARLOW: Thanks.

BEGALA: Congratulations on the new gig, Phil.

HARLOW: Awe.

MATTINGLY: Thanks, Paul. Appreciate it.

All right, well, Fulton County's Fani Willis is taking on the biggest case of her career. Next, we'll be joined by a mentor of her's. Gwen Keyes Fleming is also former district attorney next door in neighboring DeKalb County, Georgia. Her reaction to these charges and the direction she thinks this could go.

Also, CNN on the ground in Hawaii as the community cleans up from the massive deadly wildfires and investigates what happened, how did this all go so terribly wrong and so fast.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This right here is a crime scene. And so, what people don't understand is the government has to do due diligence before they start moving in.

BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: So, it's a humanitarian response in the middle of a working crime scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Exactly. (END VIDEO CLIP)

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[06:50:06]

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FANI WILLIS, FULTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I make decisions in this office based on the facts and the law. The law is completely nonpartisan. That's how decisions are made in every case.

We look at the facts. We look at the law. And we bring charges.

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HARLOW: So, President Trump has slammed the Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis throughout this process, accusing her of partisan bias. And while his critiques are largely unsupported, Willis did make a mistake last year when she hosted a fundraiser for a Democratic candidate running for Georgia's lieutenant governor. The problem was that candidate was running against Republican candidate Burt Jones, who was one of the 16 fake electors in Georgia, which made him a potential target of Willis' investigation. A Georgia judge then blocked Willis from pursuing an investigation of Jones after his attorneys argued her political actions should disqualify her from doing that. The judge, Robert McBurney called the fundraiser a, quote, "what are you thinking moment," and said, quote, "the optics are horrific." But I should note, that same judge has also praised Willis' handling of this investigation. In a ruling last week he said, quote, "the district attorney's office has been doing a fairly routine and legally unobjectionable job of public relations in a case that is anything but routine."

MATTINGLY: Joining us now is Gwen Keyes Fleming. She's a former district attorney in neighboring DeKalb County, considering herself one of Fani Willis' mentors.

Gwen, thanks so much for taking the time.

And I think this gets at a point, you know, there's been about 300 profiles written of Fani Willis over the course of the last two years. And I think it becomes very easy to slate her into some hyperbolic category or another.

Tell people, as a district attorney, who Fani Willis is and this case particularly what it means.

GWEN KEYES, FLEMING, MENTOR TO FULTON COUNTY DA FANI WILLIS: Sure.

Well, Fani is a prosecutor's prosecutor. She's tough. She knows the law. She follows the law. She's not going to be distracted either by politics, the threats that she has gotten, her team has gotten, any of the distractions of the media. She's focused. She and her team.

And what they are looking to do is understand whether they have the evidence to move forward. They've made that preliminary decision. Obviously, the grand jurors agreed. And so now they'll go about the business of trying the case.

And, again, I think as this goes forward, you'll see that she's the consummate professional. She's very persuasive in the courtroom, as well as outside the courtroom. She's earned the trust of the residents of Fulton County, and now she's going to go forward in their name to hold anybody accountable that may have violated the law within her jurisdiction.

HARLOW: How would you describe her as a litigator, as a trial lawyer? How would you describe her as cross-examining witnesses, for example?

FLEMING: She's very tough. It's mastery in the courtroom, if I can be so, I guess, hyperbolic. But she's one, again, she studies hard. She studies well. She knows the law. She knows her case. So, she's able to easily cross-examine witnesses, lure them down various paths, get them to commit to things that help her case or demonstrate their lack of credibility.

I think one of the things, too, is she's very familiar with the bench in Fulton County. She has practiced there as an assistant DA for years. So, she knows each judge's personality and how to be successful in that particular courtroom, Judge McAfee's courtroom ultimately.

So, again, all of those things come into play when you are looking to see just how good a prosecutor is. Law and facts are one thing, presence and understanding of the audience, whether it's the judge and/or the jury is another. And Fani has both.

MATTINGLY: Fani Willis has said that she's a fan of the RICO statute - Georgia's RICO statute. She's utilized it in going after gangs. She's utilizing it again here.

You're a DA in a neighboring county in the state of Georgia. Why -- tell people why this is an effective statute that Fani Willis would want to utilize here.

FLEMING: So, the great thing about Georgia's RICO statute, it's a fantastic tool for prosecutors because it lets us, lets them, tell the jurors the whole story. Very often if you have a multi-defendant case, sometimes you can get into facts as it relates to one defendant. Sometimes defense attorneys will try to file motions in limine or other motions to limit testimony of other actors so it doesn't come back on their client. A RICO statute lets you put all of that under one umbrella.

And so as you look at the way the indictment is laid out, it not only lists several predicate crimes to establish that pattern of racketeering, but it also talks about different acts that were in furtherance of the racketeering charges, or in furtherance of protecting the enterprise.

[06:55:13]

And it's those other facts that lets prosecutors fill in the gap and make this a story telling exercise for the grand - for the jurors.

HARLOW: I want to ask you about Trump's Atlanta-based defense counsel. You have defense lawyer Drew Findling, who's really well-known for - I mean he's called the magician by some there for his successful defense of famous clients, including Cardi B, Megos (ph), Gucci Mane. Also, his colleague in all of this, Jennifer Little. What should people know about them as defense counsel?

FLEMING: I mean these are excellent counsel. Jennifer and I used to work together when we were both prosecutors. And Drew has been a formidable opponent of mine and other colleagues for years. So, what you will see, I have no doubt, will be an effective defense strategy, once they've had the opportunity to digest the indictment, and we are going to be looking at some of the great prosecutors and great defense lawyers in Georgia going head to head throughout this process.

I think, though, it's important to remember that this is really about the residents of Fulton, their votes and looking to see whether the facts and law actually match up in the way that the district attorney has laid out for the grand jury.

MATTINGLY: All right, Gwen Keyes, appreciate your time. Thank so much.

FLEMING: Thank you.

HARLOW: So, our coverage of the fourth indictment of former President Trump continues. We're going to take you back out live to the Fulton County Courthouse in Atlanta, Georgia, and dive deeper into these new charges.

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