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Trump and 18 Others Charged in Georgia Indictment; Mar-a-Lago Property Manager to be Arraigned; 99 Dead in Maui Wildfires. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired August 15, 2023 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:32:37]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Former President Trump lashing out after the Fulton County grand jury decided to indict him and 18 alleged co- conspirators. Trump has taken aim at District Attorney Fani Willis throughout this two year plus investigation. And last night, after news of the indictment broke, his campaign released a statement calling her a, quote, "rabid partisan" and a "biased prosecutor."

Let's discuss all of these developments overnight with our political commentator, former special adviser to President Obam, Van Jones, CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller, co-author of "Politico's" "New York Playbook," essential reading I should note, Emily Ngo, and CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig is back at the table.

Let me actually start with you, Emily. You haven't been with us yet this morning.

After reading through this indictment, let's talk about politically how it plays. We'll get to what's going to happen in the courtroom. But what does this mean for Donald Trump?

EMILY NGO, CO-AUTHOR, "POLITICO'S" "NEW YORK PLAYBOOK": So, by now the former president and his counsel, his supporters have a playbook in mind. This is their fourth indictment in about as many months. And they know they're going to attack the prosecutor. They're going to call it a witch hunt. They're going to go after President Biden's so- called cronies. And that's their line of attack is to keep pushing back and not address the substance of the charges.

What strikes me as unique in this indictment is that it's both sweeping and narrow in scope at the same time. And so many people who are up and down the totem pole in Trump's world are now indicted as well. And they are a part of this whole mess that he's created for himself.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Van, how do you think the 18 people indicted -- this is the first time - you know, we had unindicted co- conspirators and the special counsel's last charges. These 18 individuals. You know, you talk about RICO. You think mob. You think flipping. You think people -- I mean, Trump's been financing, which is totally legal, totally fine, the defense for his friends, allies. Eighteen people here.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: They woke up in a different world. This is a different prosecutor. This is - this is literally the mirror image of what Jack Smith did. Jack Smith said, a lot of bad people here. I'm going after one person, Donald Trump. I'm going to leave everybody else alone. They'll be unindicted co-conspirators.

This prosecutor says, uh-huh, all y'all in trouble. Everybody going to get it. That has not happened before. And so these people wake up in a very different world.

This prosecutor, unlike Jack Smith, who said, I'm going to have hands- off of Mark Meadows. This prosecutor said, no, you're in it, too. So, you - so these people -- if Mark Meadows thought he was home safe because he was cooperating, he's not home safe.

[08:35:04]

If all these unindicted co-conspirators thought that they were - they're all indicted.

So, this is actually more normal. This is what we see every day at the neighborhood level. Four kids know each other. One kid does something bad, they all get in trouble. That's -- that's just normal. Prosecutors usually throw a -- they don't just throw the book at you, they throw the library at you. That's what happened. They just -- this woman, she threw the library at all these people. That's what happens every day in these courts.

And so to the extent that people were saying that Donald Trump was getting an excessively bad treatment, all the other prosecutions up to now, indictments up to now, were unusual because so many people were able to get off scot-free.

HARLOW: Yes.

JONES: Not this time.

HARLOW: One really interesting point from that is that when you go after one person, it can be more expeditious. It can be faster.

JONES: A little faster.

HARLOW: What we're seeing right now in this other RICO case that Fani Willis is overseeing in Atlanta is it may turn out to be the longest criminal trial in the history of that county. That's how long a lot of these RICO cases take. She's throwing the library at all of them, and she told Sara Murray that she's going to try them all at once. I think -- you don't think that's going to happen?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Right. No way.

HARLOW: But, the point is, does it really slow things down? HONIG: Oh, we're going to be living with this one forever. I mean, I

think this one will outlast all the others. This one will be the last one resolved.

JONES: It may outlast her.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: I mean if you --

HONIG: Possibly. You meaning in terms of her term in office?

JONES: Yes.

MILLER: If you look at history here -

HONIG: Yes.

MILLER: The longest trial on the books in the history of the United States federal courts is 18 defendants in the pizza connection case in the Southern District of New York. It started in 1985. It ended in 1987 with 18 convictions, two defendants were murdered, one was acquitted. But scaleably, that's the only thing we have to compare.

HARLOW: Yes (ph).

HONIG: And the Supreme Court has since gotten tougher on mega - what they call mega trials.

MILLER: And that's a two-year trial.

HONIG: They don't want to see 18 defendants tried at once.

But another important point here. This is the check writing portion of the proceedings. When Fani Willis says, well, I charge you. But the check cashing part is much tougher, right? It's easy - it's easy to indict. Let's just be honest. I did it. I mean it's not hard to walk into a grand jury and walk out with an indictment. But she's going to have to prove every one of these cases. There is no such thing as an every one of these. Every one of these either going to have to work out a plea deal or go trial. That's going to take a long time.

MATTINGLY: Elie, don't minimize your efforts, OK?

HONIG: It took no skill in the grand jury. Trust me.

MATTINGLY: The point that David Schoen was just making -

HONIG: Yes.

MATTINGLY: We've heard from the defense -- or Paula Reid made the point earlier they think one of the first steps will be what David Schoen was just talking about, try and move jurisdictionally over to the federal side of things.

HONIG: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Schoen seems convinced that this is plausible. We've heard from several other people that say not -- no chance.

HONIG: One hundred percent Trump will make that motion.

MATTINGLY: Right.

HONIG: Strategically should. I just heard the back and forth with Poppy and Schoen. I'm 50/50.

MATTINGLY: Really.

HONIG: I mean, I can see this one either way because Schoen's argument, and it's a good one, is, the president has to handle the take care clause, as we call it, take care that the laws are faithfully enforced. But the response from prosecutors, that Poppy articulated, quoting norm, was, this was the opposite of what a president is supposed to be doing from the White House as president. But the stakes here are huge. If he gets into federal court, he gets a way better jury pool. As you noted, could be pardonable and can ask for immunity. Can say, OK, federal courts, you've taken my case. Now as a federal officer, next step, throw it out and I'm done. That's going to be potentially dispositive here.

HARLOW: You're nodding, Emily.

NGO: So, there is overlap between this case and Jack Smith's on the election interference from (ph) both allegations.

But again the question of whether he could pardon himself if indeed he is elected back into the White House is a big one.

Now, anything in state court, be that New York or Georgia, there's nothing he can do about it per se. But goes back in the federal jurisdiction. Then that question becomes a big one and something that we are talking about through the campaign season again.

HONIG: Yes, this is like a law school hypothetical. Like, what if he wins the election, gets rid of the federal cases, can he be tried in state court? The answer is, probably, almost certainly no, not while he's president. But it's all in play.

MATTINGLY: Love those hypotheticals.

HONIG: I -

MATTINGLY: I do want to ask you, you made an interesting point, though, on whether intentional or unintentional. I - I - it struck me because you said, you know, this is the opposite of what a president should have been doing, which was quite literally the point Ruby Freeman made when she was testifying to the January 6th Committee about what it was like to have a president attacking her.

JONES: Yes.

MATTINGLY: She's central on this case.

JONES: Sure. And Ruby Freeman is I think the best American you can imagine. She's an African American woman. Decides she's going to help her neighbors vote. She's just - that's -- that's what she's trying to do. You know, puts out a little card table, helps her neighbors vote, turns in the paperwork, and suddenly the president of the United States is attacking her as someone who has destroyed democracy.

Now, she's doing more for democracy than I did. You know, all I did was turn my vote in. She tried - she tried to help her neighbors vote. And her life has been a living hell.

[08:40:01]

And the fact that a prosecutor is sticking up for her, saying that she can't be treated this way, saying that she is as important to the system as anybody else and nobody, let alone the president of the United States, should ruin someone's life with lies when they're doing a good job I think is really, really important. And I think that's the human aspect here. You know, when you have a president, like a Donald Trump, who will do anything, destroy anybody to hold on to power, well, you know what, that could be you or me. Well, I could beat Donald Trump and he's getting indicted for me. No, he's not. He's not get indicted for you. Miss Freeman is more like you and she's being defended by the system, as she should be.

HARLOW: And her -- what would be testimony in this trial will be actually seen by people. And I think that -- I know that's what makes this so different. There will be cameras in this courtroom. It's not a federal proceeding yet. Likely cameras in this state courtroom. And she would likely be a key witness. And that brings the humanity of all of these alleged crimes, I think, to the fore, John.

MILLER: I also think that having cameras in the courtroom, which is the federal courts have lagged behind this, you know, in some draconian way where they are open to the public, but not all the public, because not everybody can get down to the courthouse. When the trial is televised, the jury of public opinion gets to form those opinions about what really went on in court, not the snapshot. And those moments, a witness like that, have real power.

MATTINGLY: All right, Van, Emily, John, Elie, stay with us. We've got a lot more to dig into here.

But first we want to get back to this story. A very important story. The governor of Hawaii calling it a tragedy beyond tragedies as more bodies found after last week's deadly fires. We're going to have a report from Maui, next.

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HARLOW: About an hour from now Mar-a-Lago property manager Carlos de Oliveira will be arraigned in federal court in Florida. This is a completely separate federal case involving former President Trump. De Oliveira is one of three defendants, including Trump, charged in the classified documents probe.

Carlos Suarez following all of it live in Fort Pierce, Florida.

Carlos, good morning.

Walk us through what today will be like. What's the significance of him appearing in court today?

[08:45:02]

CARLOS SUAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Poppy, good morning.

So, Carlos de Oliveira is facing several charges, including one for conspiracy of trying to obstruct justice, as well as lying to federal investigators.

Now, the 56-year-old has yet to enter a plea in his case because he did not have a Florida-based attorney. But now that he does, we expect him to plead not guilty at his arraignment here later this morning to charges that he schemed with former President Donald Trump to try and delete surveillance video from Trump's Mar-a-Lago property. That's video that was sought by federal investigators in the Trump classified documents case.

Now, according to prosecutors, de Oliveira asked another Trump staffer, someone who works in IT, about purging the video after federal investigators showed up at Mar-a-Lago to retrieve several classified documents. The indictment alleges that the 56-year-old told this IT staffer, quote, the boss wants the server deleted.

De Oliveira is facing four counts, including lying to the FBI about helping Walt Nauta, he is the former president's personal aide. He's charged with helping Nauta to move these boxes that had these classified documents. Prosecutors say that the surveillance video shows both of these men moving these boxes around the Mar-a-Lago property after the Justice Department had subpoenaed those documents.

Again, we expect de Oliveira to be in court this morning with his Florida-based attorney and we expect him to plead not guilty to his charges.

Guys.

HARLOW: Carlos, thank you. We'll be watching.

MATTINGLY: We've got Van, Emily, John, an Elie back with us. And I appreciated Poppy -

HARLOW: What did I do?

MATTINGLY: Desperately trying to explain that this is a different case from another different case.

HARLOW: I know.

MATTINGLY: But, no, no, no, the point being that the -

HARLOW: On the same day these things are happening.

MATTINGLY: The scale of this and this moment, on April 1st there had never been a former president of the United States indicted.

HARLOW: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Donald Trump has now been indicted four times, 91 charges. A special counsel in New York, in Fulton County as well. And what was so striking -- our colleague Stephen Collinson, who brilliantly captures things every single morning on cnn.com -

HARLOW: So true.

MATTINGLY: The lead of his story, "the most astonishing aspect of former President Trump's fourth criminal indictment is not the scale of an alleged multi-layered conspiracy to steal Georgi's electoral votes in 2020 from the rightful winner. It is that Trump, the accused kingpin of the scheme to overturn Joe Biden's victory, who was charged on Monday, along with 18 others, could in 17 months be raising his right hand as the 47th president and swearing to preserve, protect, defend the Constitution he was accused of plotting to shred.

That's not hyperbole and it's not overstatement here. And I think it's tough to get your head around it to some degree.

NGO: Absolutely. It's always important to take a step back and look at the historical context of this. We say it all the time, especially on television, how unprecedented these indictments are, or the fact that he's under scrutiny of criminal charges for basically wanting to push his own agenda on the American people, everyday people who are poll workers, caught up in the whole mess of it. And to think that if this case in particular remains in the state courts, and it's televised, I want to stress that television is Donald Trump's preferred medium. Before he was a politician, he was host of "The Apprentice." Now, we could, as the campaign season unfolds, have a reality show that is again of his making, but not on his terms.

So, it will be interesting to see that contrast play out from a political viewpoint.

HONIG: That's a great point because if any of these are televised, Donald Trump will be sitting there, but silent. I mean you do not get to get up and make speeches or sit at the head of the boardroom when you're at the defendant's table.

And also, to Emily's point, you know, when Donald Trump first got arrested, indicted back in April in New York, it was surreal. And all of these feel surreal. I still can hardly believe I'm looking at State of Georgia versus Donald John Trump.

But this is also very real. And this is not done. It's not like the indictments drop and then what do we think of them and then there's voting. I mean over the next 17 months, before the election, we are going to see legal arguments, we are going to see pre-trial motions, we could see cases get dismissed, we could see guilty pleas from other people, we could see trials. I think -- you guys are the political one -- Van is the political expert, and Emily - I think this will be the dominant story of the 2024 election. JONES: Probably the only story because the Democrats aren't going to

have a primary. So, this is the campaign. This is -- what you're seeing is the campaign. Twenty-four-hour coverage of Donald Trump.

And, by the way, I don't think he's mad about it. What do you want in a campaign? You want to be able to raise money. He's raising more money than his opponents. You want to be able to cut off the oxygen for your opponents in terms of attention. We're not talking about anybody but Donald Trump. And, by the way, you know, you want to be able to dominate the news cycle, which he can do.

I will say this. They just showed 91 -- they had to -- 91 charges.

[08:50:03]

I would say one thing, if you're a Republican voter and there was someone applying for a job with you facing 91 charges, would you hire him? That's the only question I would ask you, would you hire them? You would not. You would not. And yet you may vote for someone to be president of the United States with 91 charges against him. It's unbelievable.

MILLER: Where he's innocent until proven guilty. But, as you said -

JONES: Still wouldn't hire him.

MILLER: It is the campaign. Donald Trump, I mean if you've been following him since the indictments and charges started rolling out one after another after another, has not been called on to speak about issues, the economy, employment, migrants, anything. His campaign is now based on a - it's a one-issue campaign. They're after me. They're trying to get me because they really want to get you. And the victimology, as he's framed it, seems to work only to the extent that every time he blasts out those ads, Donald Trump needs your help now, you know, the donations of $2 and $5 and $10 start rolling in again. The question is, have we taken him off the hook as a candidate?

HARLOW: You know, I think Emily started this conversation with a really good point about, it's always important to stake -- take a step back. Can you just thread the through line for us, Van, through all four of these cases. And you bring up victims, the real victims here. We talk about Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss. Also in the last federal indictment there's a civil rights violation charge as well.

JONES: Yes, I mean -

HARLOW: What's the through line?

JONES: Look, if you were a sane person and you were living in a country where you went to vote, your neighbors went to vote, and there's somebody who was in the White House who said, I don't care what your vote was. I don't care what your choice was. I don't care about your voice. I don't care that you -- that you read all these articles. I don't care if you listen to all these podcasts. I don't care that you had to wait in line with your kid. I don't care that you coordinate. I don't care about you at all. I'm going to throw your vote in the garbage can. I'm going to do whatever I can to stay in office because I don't want to leave. You would say, there's something wrong with that guys and there's something wrong with our system if it doesn't respond. There's something wrong with our system if it doesn't stick up for me. There's something wrong with our system if not -- if nobody gets in trouble for that at all. That's what you would -- if you're a sane person in a normal society.

But instead what's happening is people are saying, no, no, no, if Donald Trump wants to do all those things, it's OK. And if the system responds, there's something wrong with the system. There's something wrong with the system sticking up for me and my voice and my vote. There's something wrong with the system that would want a powerful person to respond to the law and the Constitution in a good way. And that's what's going on. We've gone through the looking glass now where people are actually more interested in one person getting their way than having their own vote count.

HARLOW: Thank you all. We're going to be talking about this for a very long time. It is the story, that I for sure. We appreciate it.

Also, though, paying close attention to Hawaii. The devastation there this morning blamed for 99 deaths. Officials warning that number could double in just the coming days. We have a live report on the ground in Maui.

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[08:57:14]

MATTINGLY: And we're going to take you to Hawaii now where at least 99 people have died after those horrific wildfires in Maui. The governor says that number is likely to increase only 20 -- with only 25 percent of the fire ravaged area currently searched. And the search, as it goes on, another daunting task, finding shelter for the thousands left without a home.

CNN's Mike Valerio has more from Maui.

MIKE VALERIO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Poppy and Phil, good morning.

Well, you know, today will mark one week since this catastrophe began. And before sunset yesterday, we heard comments from Hawaii Governor Josh Green. And he said over the next ten days this staggering death toll of 99, it has the potential to double.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VALERIO (voice over): The scale of the devastation, unimaginable.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nothing can prepare you for what I saw during my time here.

VALERIO: The loss of life, staggering.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a tragedy beyond tragedies. VALERIO: The road ahead for those who call Maui home, uncertain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Patience, prayers, perseverance. That's what we need.

VALERIO: Crews with cadaver dogs are sifting through the ashes of incinerated homes and historic landmarks left in the wake of the deadliest wildfires the U.S. has seen in a century.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-five percent of the area has been searched. We started with one dog. We're at 20. We can only move as fast as we can.

VALERIO: While the number of those unaccounted for is still unknown, the death toll will continue rising.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We call it search and rescue, of course, but it's really searching to find those who we've lost.

VALERIO: Though an official cause of the fires has yet to be determined, Hawaiian Electric, the state's primary electric provider, facing a lawsuit claiming power lines blown over by high winds helped ignite the inferno.

This amid reports firefighters contended with sputtering hydrants from weak water pressure, melted pipes and low water supply.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm just leaving a house to burn because we don't have enough water is like something I've never experienced before.

VALERIO: Yet in the face of loss and frustration -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a big ohana here on the island.

VALERIO: The community coming together in shared grief and hope.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We will survive. From the ashes we will survive.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VALERIO: So, we have the epicenter of the loss of life, Lahaina, by the Pacific Ocean. But where we are this morning, these are the slopes of Maui's highest mountain. And in this area there are still hot spots. There is still a large wildfire burning. The ash and back drop right here, all throughout this neighborhood. And this specific wildfire, 65 percent contained after one week of burning.

Poppy and Phil, back to you.

HARLOW: Mike Valerio reporting for us from Hawaii. We'll keep a spotlight on Hawaii and the devastation there and update you.

Thank you for starting your morning with us. We'll see you right back here tomorrow morning.

And our coverage of this historic fourth indictment of President Trump continues.

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