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Trump, 18 Others Charges In 41-Count Georgia Indictment; Fulton County DA Fani Willis Announces Charges On Efforts To Overturn Georgia's Election Results. Aired 5:30-6a ET

Aired August 15, 2023 - 05:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[05:30:00]

PATRICIA MURPHY, POLITICAL COLUMNIST, THE ATLANTA JOURNAL- CONSTITUTION: Also, Shawn Still is a sitting member of the Georgia General Assembly. Also, Misty Hampton was the elections director down in Coffee County, a rural county. It's about a three and a half hour drive from Atlanta. As well as Cathy Latham, who was the Republican Party Chair of Coffee County.

I think this goes to the fact that many of these people swept up in this were, in a way, private citizens. They were not -- these are not kind of headline making names. You would maybe know them in the grocery store, but these are not famous people here in Georgia.

These are people's neighbors and friends. And this entire process since 2020 has really swept Georgians up into Donald Trump's conspiracies in a way that is just totally unprecedented. And I think as these indictments go forward, this will be a really difficult part of this process for people here in Georgia to see people who they know privately swept up into this huge international story.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Michael, I want to talk about Mark Meadows and all of this because he is not only the highest ranking White House official to be charged in the Georgia indictment, obviously, outside of Trump, he's charged with solicitation of the violation of the oath of office by a public officer. This is for him being on that phone call and participating in it with the Secretary of State of Georgia, Brad Raffensperger.

When Trump asked him to find all these votes, he did not answer questions. We know from one of the original jurors on this grand jury that he took the Fifth over and over again when he was asked questions before them. But he's not indicted federally in Jack Smith's cases, but he is in this. What does that tell you?

MICHAEL ZELDIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, I have to say, probably, this was the biggest surprise for me when I opened up this indictment and I saw Mark Meadows' name there because I assumed that he was cooperating with the federal prosecutors and therefore the state prosecutors.

So we don't know, I guess, who the identity of unindicted co- conspirator number six is in the Jack Smith indictment. So I suppose it raises the possibility that is Mark Meadows. But if Mark Meadows is cooperating in the federal case, but not cooperating in the state case, that creates a host of problems for both sets of prosecutors.

He can't take the stand in a federal case and admit things that will then be held against him in a state case. So he's either going to be lying-in one or lying in the other. So they've got to figure out what's going on here in order to get their two indictments aligned so that Mark Meadows doesn't actually hurt them in both.

HARLOW: Did they talk about -- like does Fani Willis talk to Jack Smith about Mark Meadows role in all this stuff? Do you see what I'm saying?

ZELDIN: Yes, I would think so. In the federal state investigations that I was involved in when I was a prosecutor, we always coordinated with the state people when we were bringing our, you know, federal cases forward. And I would be very surprised if there wasn't this federal state cooperation in this case.

But this indictment that contains Mark Meadows, but the federal indictment that doesn't raises questions about whether or not there was some slippage between these two prosecuting teams. And that has to be resolved now.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: It's such a great point. And our Sara Murray, who has just absolutely dominated the story, I'm a little biased --

HARLOW: She has.

MATTINGLY: -- as a colleague --

HARLOW: She has.

MATTINGLY: -- and friend, but has dominated this story, asked this question to Fani Willis last night. And what's so interesting about it is I think it was only a week or 10 days ago where Fani Willis was asked about whether or not she had been working with the special counsel's office. And she said she wouldn't recognize Jack Smith if she saw him in a grocery store and seemed to say no.

This was what she said when Sara Murray asked the same question last night. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Have you had any contact with the special counsel about overlap between these cases? And do you intend to try all of these defendants together?

FANI WILLIS, FULTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Do I intend to try the 19 defendants in this indictment together?

MURRAY: Yes.

WILLIS: Yes. MURRAY: And have you had any contact with the special counsel about the overlap between this indictment and the federal indictment?

WILLIS: I'm not going to discuss our investigation at this time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: So, Joey, the first answer surprised me because I assumed in something like this, again, not a lawyer, haven't served in any of these capacities, but I assume they have to be talking, given the scale of the overlap here.

The second one sounds more like what you would think would be the answer, particularly if you are trying to communicate -- need to communicate to some degree so you don't overlap, you don't run into each other.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right. So it's important, though, of course, right, to have independence of the investigation, right?

MATTINGLY: Right.

JACKSON: And so the state has to move forward. They have, of course, as we know, they empaneled that special grand jury, remember that. That grand jury did not. This is in Georgia. They did not have the ability to return indictments. They heard from 75 witnesses.

So you want to make sure that the integrity of one investigation is solid with your witnesses. The federal government has their witnesses, and at the end of the day, that ensures the public that all is moving smoothly. It doesn't mean that they can't speak with each other and see what information that they have --

HARLOW: They can totally.

JACKSON: -- open each other -- absolutely.

HARLOW: OK.

[05:35:03]

MATTINGLY: All right, Joey Jackson. Michael Zeldin, Patricia Murphy, we appreciate it, guys. Thank you.

HARLOW: Fulton County's Fani Willis, the D.A. we've been talking about all morning is taking on the biggest case of her career. More on her next.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIS: I make decisions in this office based on the facts and the law. The law is completely nonpartisan. That's how decisions are made in every case. We look at the facts, we look at the law, and we bring charges. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That is Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis addressing her decision to charge former President Trump and 18 of his allies over efforts to overturn Georgia's 2020 election results. The former president has taken aim consistently at Willis throughout this two year plus investigation.

Just last night, after news of the indictment broke, his campaign released a statement calling her a, quote, rabid partisan and a biased prosecutor. But Willis insists she is just doing her job, a job she took on after winning her 2020 election. Our Randi Kaye reports on her rise to Fulton County District Attorney.

[05:40:13]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILLIS: It doesn't matter if you're rich, poor, black, white, Democrat or Republican. If you violated the law, you're going to be charged.

RANDI KAYE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis, talking about her investigation into Donald Trump's alleged attempt to influence Georgia's 2020 election. At the center of it all, a phone call Trump had with Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger after the election.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more that we have because we won the state.

WILLIS: Very thankful that you are here.

KAYE (voice-over): When that call was made, Willis had only been in office for one day ever since she's been leading the charge on the investigation.

WILLIS: Been working for two and a half years. We're ready to go.

KAYE (voice-over): Ready to go. And in the process, ruffling Trump's feathers.

TRUMP: In Georgia, the racist district attorney goes after me for a perfect phone call. This woman is not a capable woman.

A racist, and this is a person that wants to indict me.

KAYE (voice-over): Those accusations of racism unfounded. Team Trump also included Willis in this ad called the Fraud Squad.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Biden's newest lackey, Atlanta D.A. Fani Willis.

KAYE (voice-over): Despite it all, Willis hardly seems rattled by Trump's continued attacks.

WILLIS: It's ridiculous in nature, but I support his right to be protected by the First Amendment and say what he likes.

KAYE (voice-over): Since investigating Trump, Willis says she's been subjected to racist taunts.

WILLIS: I've never been called the N word so much in my life.

KAYE (voice-over): Willis, a Democrat, was elected Fulton County's first female district attorney after ousting a six-term incumbent in a primary. She'd built a name for herself as a leading prosecutor in the Atlanta public school cheating scandal, securing convictions for 11 of the 12 defendants.

TRUMP: Fake machines, yes.

KAYE (voice-over): In her first two years in office, Willis has juggled investigating Trump and subpoenaing some of his top allies, while also going after gangs like drug rich. She's also handed down Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations indictments to popular rappers, including Young Thug and Gunna.

Willis has cited the rapper's song lyrics as evidence in the indictments against them, something her critics say infringes on First Amendment rights.

WILLIS: I have some legal advice, don't confess to crimes on rap lyrics if you do not want them used, or at least get out of my county.

(on-camera): Willis was born in California. Her name, Fani, is Swahili, it means prosperous. After her parents' divorce, she was raised primarily by her father. He was a criminal defense attorney and member of the Black Panther Party.

(voice-over): After attending Howard University, she graduated from Emory University School of Law in 1996. She worked in the private sector for a time, then joined the Fulton County Prosecutor's Office in 2001. According to the New York Times, a spokesperson says that since Willis became DA, her office's conviction rate has stood at close to 90 percent.

WILLIS: I truly believe God personally selected me here for this moment in time, and I'm going to do the job that I'm blessed to be able to do.

KAYE (voice-over): Randi Kaye, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: Well, former Trump Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, now facing his first indictment related to the 2020 election. What that could say about this case and others. That's coming up next.

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[05:47:50]

HARLOW: Former President Trump now facing a total of 91 criminal charges in four different cases in Georgia, Florida, New York and Washington, D.C. You see the charges scrolling on the screen right now. The newest charges related to election subversion in the Atlanta area. The former president has until next Friday to turn himself in. Remember, the first Republican primary debate is next Wednesday.

Joining us now, Republican Strategist and former RNC Communications Director Doug Heye. CNN Political Analyst, White House Correspondent for PBS NewsHour, Laura Barron-Lopez and former adviser to President Clinton, Paul Begala.

Well, good morning, guys. Next week is going to be a big week, Doug. There's a Republican debate that Trump may or may not participate in, and then he and 18 other folks indicted in Georgia have to turn themselves in on these charges. But Trump is running on this. Is this one going to be any different, because all of the others seem to have not heard his support, maybe bolstered it?

DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes, the reality is, Poppy, in the short term, no, this won't be any different. And the reason for that is twofold. One, every time that Donald Trump has been invited and -- indicted and I'll say this is a bizarre statement, it bolsters Donald Trump because it reinforces his core argument.

Typically, in politics, when you're indicted, you get in any legal trouble, your campaign is over. For Donald Trump, it reinforces his core message that the system is rigged, that it's -- rigged against you, it's rigged against me, it's rigged against everybody. And bizarrely, this shores up his message.

Two, when he's been indicted each time, most of his opponents have not only not gone after Donald Trump, which in any other campaign you would do, they back up Donald Trump. They say this is a two-tiered system of justice. So when your own opponents, the people running against you, fail to criticize you, that bolsters you as well.

The debate, therefore, is going to be interesting, because this case is different. And we'll see if it makes Republican candidates who are running against Donald Trump run against him -- move from running against him in theory to in practice, and use this to do what they would do against any other opponent in any other race, and that's criticize him.

HARLOW: I mean, so if you have -- Asa Hutchinson put out a statement last night saying, essentially, I've prosecuted people under RICO statutes like this, et cetera, but so few will go after him.

[05:50:09]

MATTINGLY: Including the number two guy who's had a rough couple of months, the governor of Florida, Ron DeSantis.

HARLOW: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Laura, Doug kind of captures the point I've been fixated on not just this morning, but I think over the course of several months now. Keep in mind, over the course of four months, Trump has been indicted four different times in four different places.

But our mutual pal Peter Baker, the New York Times, has a great piece this morning where he really kind of captures it and says, quote, "The nation once recoiled of presidential candidates caught driving under the influence or swiping lines in a speech without credit. Now one of the two major parties has not ruled out a front-runner charged with conspiring to subvert democracy, endangering national security, obstructing justice and falsifying records of hush money to a pornographic film star".

Is it because it's just so much that everybody has tuned out and/or is numb, or is it which I think Doug's point is very smart on this, that this just kind of dovetails perfectly into what has been Trump's message from the beginning and has served as teflon to some point?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think when we're looking at the primary, Doug's point totally stands, which is that the GOP base is behind the former president. I would argue a majority of the Republican establishment is behind the former president, or at least will not say anything and confront him directly.

They will do it privately to us many times, but not publicly and directly to make a break from the former president. But when we look at the general election, I think it is having an impact because I was just talking to a Republican -- registered Republican voter in Arizona, a swing state, another state that is actually looking into a fake elector scheme carried out by Trump in 2020.

And that Republican voter had voted Republican their entire life, told me -- they voted for Joe Biden in 2020. One of those independent leaning, you know, moderate Republicans who broke for Biden in that swing state last go around. And I checked in to see if they had soured on President Biden and were leaning back the Republican way, given the cast of these candidates that this voter has to choose from, and they said no.

And it was because of what Doug is saying, which is that none of the other Republicans that potentially have a shot of taking out the former president are actually confronting him on the democracy issue and on all of the indictments. And so he said there was no one there that he felt he could vote for.

HARLOW: Controller, I don't know if we have the Hillary Clinton sound. If we do, let's see if we can get it up for Paul, because I just think you obviously were a former adviser to Bill Clinton. Hillary Clinton talks about this. We'll play it in just a moment. But Joe Biden, the president isn't -- can't really talk about this because it's this Justice Department that is at the helm of the federal probes.

But Hillary Clinton did weigh in here. She was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, it's hard to believe. I don't feel any satisfaction. I feel great -- you know, just great, profound sadness that we have a former president who has been indicted for so many charges that went right to the heart of whether or not our democracy would survive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Just your thoughts on this because we're not going to hear that from Joe Biden.

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Look, I think Hillary should have won. She lost fair and square by the Electoral College. But it was pretty remarkable to see that because Democrats in the main are not talking about this.

HARLOW: Yes.

BEGALA: Because the president especially cannot, must not, will not talk about this. I think that's very smart. Biden has to stay out of it. You know, the challenge, I think Laura hit it exactly on the head, I could have slept in. She had exactly what I was trying to --

HARLOW: As she often does.

BEGALA: We keep obsessing -- oh, she's great. I hope she's not listening. We often look at how bulletproof Trump's base is, right. Why doesn't this crack his base? Why doesn't this crack -- that's the wrong question. Trump keeps deepening support of that same minority of Americans. It's not the majority.

He -- we shouldn't ask, does this deepen his support? We should ask, does it broaden it? Right? Donald Trump lost a popular vote to my friend Hillary, lost a popular vote to Joe Biden. Not a single day of his presidency did he have a majority of support in America.

If he wants to get back to the White House, he can get to 45 nationally very easily. Because Lincoln was right. You can fool some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time. And I think that which makes him unbeatable in the Republican primary may make him unelectable in the general election.

MATTINGLY: Laura, to that point, I think this is the thing that -- this is like the fifth thing I've said I've been fixated on. I fixate on a lot of things related to lot of things, sorry. But you talked to White House officials, you talked to Biden campaign officials.

[05:55:05]

This -- Paul's point, I think, is to some degree, the theory of the case, right? That, look, we get it. This is where the Republican Party is. This is where the Republican base is. When you have these issues which Biden's not going to talk about, but outside groups probably will, and then you add into them the Roe versus Wade issue, which has been dramatically moving in Democratic -- they were on the state level over and over and over again.

Those voters that you're talking about, like in Arizona, aren't going to all of a sudden shift back to Trump if he's the nominee. And yet Joe Biden remains tied or within the margin of error with Donald Trump in every poll. Why? BARRON-LOPEZ: Well, the White House explanation or the Biden campaign explanation is because of the fact that he's just not in the news as much right now. And they're essentially letting Republicans argue amongst themselves and let the indictments against the former president just take up all of the airspace because they think that ultimately that will help the president when he starts fully campaigning come next year.

So that's their explanation. I mean, we've seen, though, as we get closer to the election time, that ultimately that enthusiasm gap can shrink and that Democrats appear very galvanized around those issues that you just laid out, Phil.

MATTINGLY: They expect them to come home.

HARLOW: Yes.

MATTINGLY: They do eventually.

HARLOW: They do, guys. Thank you very much to all of you.

Donald Trump and the 18 others just indicted in Georgia have 10 days to turn themselves in. More of our breaking news coverage right ahead.

MATTINGLY: And we'll speak live with someone who testified before the grand jury right before the indictments. CNN Contributor, former Republican Lieutenant Governor of Georgia, Geoff Duncan joins us, coming up.

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