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Adrian Fontes is Interviewed about Fake Electors; Trump Doubles Down on Claims; Amy Lee Copeland is Interviewed about the Georgia Case. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired August 16, 2023 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Fired the round that killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins in - on the "Rust" movie set could only have happened if the trigger was pulled. Involuntary manslaughter charges were dismissed against the actor in April, and Baldwin has denied pulling the trigger.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: North Korea finally confirming that American Army Private Travis King is there in the country after he ran across the DMZ last month. They say he was seeking refuge after being mistreated and after racial discrimination against him by the Army. King's mother is asking Kim Jong-un's regime to treat her son humanely.

And just in, the Women's World Cup final is set. England taking down the tournament host nation, Australia, this morning 3-1. The soccer world will crown a first-time champion when the Lioness take on Spain Sunday morning, 6:00 a.m. Eastern Time.

"Five Things" to know this morning. More on these all day at CNN and cnn.com. Don't forget to download the "5 Things" podcast every morning. Go to cnn.com/fivethings. You can also find it wherever you get your podcasts.

MATTINGLY: Well, as team Trump rails from yet another indictment, this one out of Georgia, the question now is, will we see another state make a similar move? Maybe Arizona. A state where Biden's margin of victory was even tighter than it was in Georgia. Part of the 98-page indictment reads, quote, "the enterprise operated in Fulton County, Georgia, elsewhere in the state of Georgia, and in other states, including but not limited to Arizona, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and the District of Columbia."

Now, following his loss, Trump's legal team pressured state lawmakers not to certify the state's results and to audit the election to sew doubt in the voting process.

Joining us now is Adrian Fontes. He's the secretary of state in Arizona, would be in charge in the 2024 election. He's also the former Democratic Maricopa County recorder.

Thank you very much for your time, sir. I want to start with what people should think the Georgia indictment,

what we saw out of the district attorney means for, if anything, what's happening in Arizona as it relates to looking back at the 2020 election efforts.

ADRIAN FONTES (D), : Well, first, thanks for having me. And, second, our very capable attorney general, Chris Mace, news has reported already, that they've got an ongoing investigation (INAUDIBLE). Well, they're in the Grand Canyon state. I'm out of state right now.

But we are making absolutely certain to cross all the t's and dot all of the i's. That office is going to be very thorough.

You may recall that as a candidate a year and a half ago I called for an investigation into some of the folks who were trying to overturn our election in Arizona. I continue stalwart against folks breaking the law when it comes to elections, election administration. And we're going to stay on the path of making sure that the law is followed.

That includes -- I'll make sure to note for folks, because I'm a former prosecutor myself, that all criminal defendants are presumed innocent by the law until they're proven guilty. And so, hopefully, justice will prevail in this. And we're looking very carefully at making sure that we are crossing t's and dotting i's in Arizona.

MATTINGLY: Now, that final point is a critical one, and leads into another question that I wanted to ask. Governor Katie Hobbs, she used to hold your job. In 2020 she said yesterday that Arizona should press charges against the former president. Later her communications director seemed to walk that back since she misheard the question, the legal process should move ahead without political interference.

Have you discussed this issue with Governor Hobbs? I know you guys were on the same ticket, to some degree, or running in 2020 together. But since the investigation has launched, have you guys talked about this? Do you have any thoughts on her comments related to this?

FONTES: No, I think the governor's office on the ninth floor will speak for and with the governor.

From our perspective, we want to make sure that the rules are followed. As a matter of fact, in Arizona, the secretary of state does not run elections. The secretary of state is the regulator of those who do run the elections. Our 15 counties. So, we establish the playbook, much like the commissioner of a major league, and we let the teams go ahead and do all of the work.

And so we are excited about making sure that we have got solid teams on the field in all of our 15 counties for the 2024 election. As far as the indictment is concerned, or future potential charges in Arizona, that's the attorney general's job at this stage of the game, and we will support Chris Mays and her efforts and her team with any information, any background, any technical expertise that the secretary's office may need to lend in the future.

MATTINGLY: You know, you talk about the playbook, kind of laying the groundwork for the teams to - I'm going to mix metaphors here, so I'll just stop. But the idea of the -- you know, you have a draft - or I believe you have an elections procedures manual that has made some changes, kind of moved in a different direction to some degree than Katie Hobbs, the now governor, did during her time in office, but it's also drawn the thread of a lawsuit from Republican state representative -- from state lawmakers. What's your response to that?

FONTES: Well, look, I'm the first secretary of state in Arizona who actually administered election prior to becoming secretary of state in several decades.

[08:35:02]

I know what the work is that the counties need to be doing and be prepared for. And this manual is actually for the counties. It's not for the legislature. It's not for the executive branch. It's for the counties. And with their input over the last five months, we worked diligently to make sure that they've got a rule book that they can work with.

Remember, Arizona has not only the second largest voting jurisdiction in the United States in Maricopa County, but we have some of the smallest voting jurisdictions in the country. And so we've got to have rules that apply to everyone in our unique system with very, very healthy, no excuse absentee voting by our ballot by mail system and in-person voting on Election Day. So, that combination of factors requires some high technical expertise.

And, you know, we get threatened with lawsuits all of the time. It is part and parcel of the political world that we like to stay out of. But if a lawsuit gets filed, I stand by the work of our election director and her team. And we will vigorously defend the work of the secretary of state's office to help our counties run the best elections that Arizona's citizens deserve.

MATTINGLY: If this manual had been in place in 2020, what would have been different about how the election in Arizona played out?

FONTES: Not much. As a matter of fact, a lot of the changes we are making are technical changes. You know, and the manual really does just clarify what is in statute already. And statute cannot encompass all of the very specific technical things about elections. And so that's why the manual is promulgated.

And under Arizona law, the legislature has pulled itself out of this process. They have given me the statutory authority to draft the procedure manual and then the approval goes to the governor and the attorney general. If the legislature wants an active role in this, then they can change the rules that they made. But at this stage of the game, we are moving along very nicely. And the impact versus 2020 is really political as to outcomes. It's not technical as to the administration of the election. And that's the way we hope to keep it in Arizona.

MATTINGLY: All right, Arizona Secretary of State Adrian Fontes, thanks for your time, sir. FONTES: Thank you very much.

HARLOW: Good to - good to hear from him.

Former President Trump's still the Republican frontrunner, by a mile, by the way, in the 2024 race. Will this fourth indictment have an impact on that support? Harry Enten has this morning's number. He's here.

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GOV. BRIAN KEMP (R-GA): I also think he can lose Georgia if he's not doing what I said, telling people what he's for, staying focused on the race, quit looking back at the 2020 election. I mean, for goodness sakes, that was two and a half, three years ago now.

I think if he continues to do that, he's going to lose Georgia in November.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: That was Georgia Governor Brian Kemp on CNN last month to our Kaitlan Collins warning former President Donald Trump not to relitigate the 2020 election or he risks losing the state again. The former president clearly not taking that advice. Instead, fresh off his indictment in Georgia, doubling down on false claims of fraud.

So, how might this play out with voters in Georgia? I have wonderful news. I think at least. Harry Enten has the morning number. He's going to tell us how it's going to play out.

What's the morning number, Harry?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: All right, this morning's number is 17 points. Why? Because let's take a look at the presidential elections in Georgia. There's been a 17-point swing towards the Democrats since 2004. That is a much wider swing than we saw nationally, which was just seven points. So, Georgia, which, obviously, Joe Biden won, becoming the first Democrat since Bill Clinton in 1992 to carry the state. It's a state that is going significantly further to the left.

And we look, you know, in terms of Donald Trump and his sort of popularity amongst the GOP base in Georgia. Look at this, Trump endorsed candidates won this often in 2022 GOP primaries. Nationwide, look at that, 95 percent. But it's just 67 percent in Georgia for Congress and governor. So, Republicans in Georgia more skeptical than Republican nationwide of Trump backed candidates, at least in 2022.

MATTINGLY: Just doing my math. Ninety-five is higher than 65, right?

ENTEN: That is correct, 95 bigger than 67. MATTINGLY: I'm not going to take your job. I'm just saying I probably could.

What -- Why? Why? Explain why. What's different about Georgia Republicans?

ENTEN: Yes, so, you know, if - you know, we're sort of thinking, OK, we looked at 2020, we looked at 2020, let's look at 2024 going forward, right, because I think that's the key nugget here. OK, Republicans who think Trump has committed serious federal crimes. Look at this, this is nationally, 27 percent of Republicans with a college degree believe so, versus just 12 percent amongst those without a college degree. And why is that so important for Georgia? Because let's take a look at the six closest swing states that Joe Biden won back in 2020. Look at this. This is Trump voters with a college degree in those states. Georgia ranks near the top at 35 percent. Significantly more than say Wisconsin, more than Michigan, Nevada. Only Arizona tops it. So, the Trump skeptical Republicans are those with a college degree and they're plentiful in Georgia among Republicans. Don't be surprised if there's perhaps some ebbing of that Trump Republican base in the peach state.

MATTINGLY: DeKalb, Cobb. That's a great point.

ENTEN: You know it.

MATTINGLY: My man. Thank you, Harry.

ENTEN: Thank you.

HARLOW: All right, here's what Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis said on Monday night.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FANI WILLIS, FULTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: All elections in our nation are administered by the states.

The state's roll in this process is essential to the functioning of our democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: According to a "New York Times" essay, the Georgia case that she unveiled against former President Trump and his alleged co- conspirators shows the power of states to save democracy.

Amy Lee Copeland and Norm Eisen write that the indictment stands out above all, quote, "because Georgia offers uniquely compelling evidence of election interference and a set of state criminal statutes tailor- made for the sprawling loosely organized wrongdoing." They add, "it is a reminder of the genius of American federalism. When our democracy is threatened, states have an indispensable part to play in protecting it." Joining us now, one of the authors of that fascinating op-ed, former

Georgia federal prosecutor, Amy Lee Copeland.

[08:45:04]

Amy Lee, it's great to have you.

What do you think is so ingenious about the way Fani Willis did this?

AMY LEE COPELAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good morning, Poppy.

The Georgia indictment collects everything that happened in Georgia with respect to this presidential election. It covers the calls made to the secretary of state, which are widely publicized, but things that other people may not be as aware of. It talks about the participants going to the general assembly to try to have the fake electors. It talks about attempts to have voting machine breaches in rural Coffee County, Georgia. It speaks about witness intimidation of poll workers in Fulton County. And it ties it all back to the Oval Office, and it parallels what is going on in other states.

Georgia's RICO statute is broad and is to be deliberately construed. And it's a perfect mechanism for punishing and recognizing all of these crimes.

HARLOW: So, with the fact that Georgia's RICO statute is so broad, broader actually than the federal one, why you think Trump's claims and his attorneys likely attempts to say this doesn't fall under RICO will be unsuccessful?

COPELAND: I do think they will be unsuccessful ultimately. I'm sure there will be a number of challenges. I have no doubt that these defendants will be represented by very capable attorneys. But the statute is very clear and it is very broad.

HARLOW: We know, actually, that Trumps two defense lawyers in the state of Georgia are really capable attorneys. They've been really successful. Even people who have tried cases against them in the court have complimented them.

So, you're a former Georgia federal prosecutor. What do you think Fani Willis' team's biggest Achilles heel is as they take this to trial?

COPELAND: Well, it's just going to be a matter of time. I think they're going to -- Miss Willis came out and said that she wanted to try this within six months and she would be ready. I have no doubt that she could try this case in six months. She has been investigating this case since February the 10 of 2022. But I think delay is going to be a real issue in this case. I think there's going to be some motions, there's been a removal petition filed by Mr. Meadows. I think the defense will need more than six months to prepare. I think striking a jury is going to be very, very difficult in this case.

HARLOW: Yes, jury selection will be fascinating through this.

Mark Meadows wants this in federal court -- COPELAND: It will, but we'll --

HARLOW: Go ahead, Amy Lee.

COPELAND: He does. He filed a removal petition. I'm sorry, yes, Mark Meadows does want this in federal court. He filed a removal petition saying that he had (INAUDIBLE) federal defenses and the federal court should hear his case. I expect removal petitions from other governmental actors, like Mr. Clark and Mr. Trump himself.

HARLOW: Well, Trump's former attorney in the second impeachment, David Schoen, thinks not only Mark Meadows but Trump has a very good case to make to get this thing in federal court, and he explained why yesterday on the show.

Here's what he said.

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DAVID SCHOEN, TRUMP'S DEFENSE LAWYER DURING SECOND IMPEACHMENT TRIAL: The defense story would be, President Trump and all of those around him believed at all times that there was election fraud, there were irregularities, that what he was saying he believed in.

And if that's the case, then he had an obligation, would be the defense, to see that the -- take care that the laws are faithfully executed. Clearly, acting as president --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That's how he reads this under the removal statute 1442, that he was doing this in his capacity as president. Mark Meadows is saying in this motion, I was doing this in my capacity as chief of staff.

What do you say?

COPELAND: States administer elections. And here the state has consistently said that there was no election fraud. They said it at the outset. And Governor Kemp said it as recently as Monday, I believe, that there was no election fraud in the 2020 election.

HARLOW: And you're saying, therefore, they weren't acting legitimate - they may have been acting in those capacities as president and chief of staff, but they weren't acting legitimately because they should have known?

COPELAND: That is one thing I'm saying. And I'm also harkening back to the January 6th testimony of Attorney General Barr, for instance, where, you know, he says that Mr. Trump actually did know that there was no election fraud, that those statements had been made to him.

HARLOW: Final question to you is about how long this took. So, Jack Smith -- well, much of what we see in Fani Willis' indictment is in Jack Smith's most recent indictment. His took about eight months from when he took over. And his case covers seven different states. Obviously, federal machinations in all of this. Do you think Fani Willis waited too long to bring this case, two and a

half years?

COPELAND: I think Miss Willis waited until she felt certain she had everything she needed. She began this investigation, like I said, on February 10, 2021, taking it over from the Georgia secretary of state. She impaneled a special purpose grand jury to have 75 witnesses come and testify. And that grand jury to made a recommendation. She went to a regular grand jury.

[08:50:01]

Mr. Trump has received more protection than the average criminal defendant by having this presented to a special purpose grand jury. Her investigation took as long as it took, and she's ready to go now.

HARLOW: Amy Lee Copeland, thanks so much for being with us. I encourage everyone to read your piece in "The Times." It's really interesting. Thanks again.

COPELAND: Thank you, Poppy. Good-bye.

HARLOW: Well, diehard Dodgers fans making good on his wager with slugger Mookie Betts. Something he now calls -- Betts now calls one of the coolest moments of his career.

Poppy, I don't even think you're going to believe what was on the line here. We're going to tell you, next.

HARLOW: I was going to say, but I'm - I'm that number one Dodgers fan. That's me , the number one Dodgers fan.

MATTINGLY: What?

HARLOW: They used to be Brooklyn.

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MATTINGLY: In his first 10 seasons in the major leagues, Mookie Betts has hit 244 home runs, but he's calling one home run from a couple of weeks ago one of the coolest moments of his career. Betts was in the on-deck circle in a game against the Oakland A's when Giuseppe Mancuso bet the Dodgers slugger that if he hit a home run he was going to give his soon to be born daughter the middle name of Mookie.

HARLOW: Oh.

[08:55:08]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOOKIE BETTS, 7-TIME MLB ALL-STAR: And I heard this and I laughed. And he said he was serious. And so I turned around and told him, no, don't do that, bro. Don't do that. And he said, no, I'm going to do it. I said, your wife wouldn't like that, bro, don't do that. He said, no, I'm going to tell her. (END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: And, I mean, he warned him. Of course, Betts delivered, hitting a 436-foot bomb to left field. His longest home run with the team.

Fast forward to yesterday. Well, Betts learned that Giuseppe actually made good on that bet, posting a birth certificate online for Francesca Mookie Mancuso.

HARLOW: Oh.

MATTINGLY: And, here she is.

HARLOW: Beautiful.

MATTINGLY: Giuseppe tagged Betts and the Dodgers in the post, writing, a bet is a bet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETTS: I can't wait to meet Francesca. And I -- that's going to be my girl. That's going to be my girl. So, I thought that was pretty neat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Pretty neat indeed. First of all, I love the name Mookie. Who doesn't want to call a cute baby Mookie.

MATTINGLY: Would you have been super psyched if your husband was like, hey, by the way, I lost a bet to a Major League Baseball player and now we have to name our child --

HARLOW: My name is - my name is - no, but my name is Poppy. Like, I grew up with the weird name in Minnesota in the 1980s, OK. So, I - I like -- and it's worked out OK.

MATTINGLY: You OK?

HARLOW: Yes, I'm OK. I'm OK. I'm OK.

MATTINGLY: I like it. I think it's a cool name.

HARLOW: Thank you for being with us. We will see you here tomorrow morning. Have a great day.

"CNN NEWS CENTRAL" is next.

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