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Members of Fulton County Grand Jury in Georgia that Voted to Indict Former President Trump have Personal Information Posted Online; Families of Victims of Buffalo Mass Shooting Bring Civil Case against Gun and Media Companies. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired August 17, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. It's the top of the hour. So glad you're with us here on CNN THIS MORNING. We do have some news just into CNN. It looks like the Fulton County grand jury, those jurors, may have been doxed online after indicting President Trump. Photos and home addresses that appear to belong to those jurors are circulating on pro-Trump forums and sites that have been linked to violent extremist attacks.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: And also this morning, 111 people including children are now confirmed dead as the death told from that catastrophic wildfire on Maui continues to soar. More than 1,000 people are still missing with only 38 percent of the disaster zone even searched.

HARLOW: Also in Wyoming, a head librarian fired after refusing to remove books that were deemed sexually inappropriate for children by the library's board. That librarian joins us live.

This hour of CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

All right, this is where we begin this morning. We do have a disturbing development in President Trump's criminal case in Fulton County Georgia. It looks like the grand jury that voted to indict him may have been doxed online. Photos, social media profiles, even home addresses that appear to belong to those grand jurors are circulating on these pro Trump forums and sites that have been previously linked to violent extremist attacks. CNN has learned some anonymous users are calling for violence against those jurors.

MATTINGLY: And a Texas woman was charged with threatening to kill the judge in Trump's federal election case. Investigators say she left a voicemail for the judge saying, quote, "If Trump doesn't get elected in 2024, we are coming to kill you, so tread lightly."

With us now, CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller, CNN political analyst and White House correspondent for "PBS NewsHour" Laura Barron-Lopez, and former U.S. attorney in the Middle District of Georgia Michael Moore. John, I want to start with you on the threats and the arrests related

to the judge in the federal case. What does this tell you about the trajectory of things going forward here?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, it's predictable. You have Mr. Trump himself saying that if you come after us, we come after you. He has made statements about the judge in the Manhattan case. He has made statements about the prosecutor in Washington, about the judge in Washington.

So he has set the table for his supporters. So when a phone call comes into a federal judge, starting off with racist comments, hey, you stupid slave, n-word, threatening to kill her, saying if Donald Trump isn't president in 2024 we are coming for you, putting you on notice. This is part of these atmospherics that has the sheriff in Georgia, who is receiving his own threats, the D.A., the Manhattan D.A., increasing security details.

The key here in this case is an example of the threat to the judge of the Washington case. But now let's look at the extent of the grand jurors. The key here is going after these people and showing there is a consequence for this. Georgia law, Title 16, Chapter 20 makes it a crime, punishable by 20 years, up to 20 years, to threaten a grand juror or a juror for any judgment or verdict. So, they are going to be very forward leaning in making sure that these threats come at a cost.

HARLOW: You know Georgia law very well, Michael. And this is the law. I didn't know it until this indictment came out, but this is the law for transparency reasons. Is this also the law in Georgia? So will the jurors will all be known in the criminal trial, then, as well?

MICHAEL MOORE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY, MIDDLE DISTRICT OF GEORGIA: They will be known. There will be a -- if the trial is televised, I think it will be, there would not be at that point pictures of the jurors on television, and they would block the jury box.

HARLOW: Yes, they don't show them.

MOORE: They wouldn't do that. But some of --

HARLOW: But their names will be released.

MOORE: They'll be known. Some of this comes a little bit with the territory. And I am not suggesting what's going on his right, but it's not uncommon for people to be threatened if you are a prosecutor or a judge. You kind of get used to that. What you don't hear about often is this carrying on with grand juries. You never hear about that, and I think probably this will boil over. But the key is, really, as you say, is to prosecute it and do it with a heavy had quickly, and not necessarily try to make a motion, for instance, for a protective order in this case because you can't directly back to a defendant. But you can, because the law allows you to go forward in Georgia, to prosecute these individuals quickly, and make sure that the -- absolutely. And it should be done without hesitation. Somebody ought to be taking a warrant this morning.

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MILLER: The anomaly here is you can't prosecute the people who did the doxing because the state created a public record. But you can prosecute the people who would use that information to make a threat.

MOORE: That's true.

MATTINGLY: Laura, one of the things -- I think to some degree, people in the lead up to January 6th, would get a little bit numb or dismissive of Trump when he would tweet something, Trump when he would say something. Trump has attacked judges before. Trump's attacked prosecutors before. This is kind of the norm for him, and it's easy to ignore it or pass it off.

And I think then you reach situations like this where you say, is this really problematic? Is this just somebody whose threat is empty, or is this really driving something that could bring a violence to some degree?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think it is somebody that could bring violence, which is what we saw. On January 6th was one of the most -- it was one of the biggest examples of what happens when people take that rhetoric and decide to act, which is that they had heard in the lead up to January 6th lies about the election, that the presidency was being stolen. And then they decided to go there because the president encouraged him to go to the Capitol.

And so we have seen the results of that. People died that day, officers died that day. One of Trump's supporters died that day. And just recently also, there was a man that was killed by FBI in Utah for threatening the life of President Biden as well as D.A. Alvin Bragg, as well as other elected officials. And laced in all of this is racism, as was pointed out. And Trump is very specific about the language that he uses when he talks about black jurists. He uses the word "thugs" repeatedly when he talks about black jurists. And that is a signal that he is sending to his base.

I think we are beyond the point where we can look at those comments and those threatening comments from the former president and think that he isn't aware of who is reading them and who is watching them and the fact that extremism groups look at what he posts, and then they potentially act based on what he says.

HARLOW: Everyone, stay with us. I want to get your take on this next reporting that we have, that attorneys representing the survivors and family members of last year's racist mass shooting at a Buffalo grocery store have now filed two lawsuits in New York's Erie County. Eighteen-year-old Payton Gendron was sentenced to life in prison earlier this year for killing 10 people at the Tops Market. That was in May of 2022. The defendants in the suit include the shooter's parents, gun companies, and several social media companies, including YouTube, Reddit, and Google.

According to one those lawsuits, quote, "Just as the shooters is being held to account criminally for his actions, the defendants named in this lawsuit much answer for their critical roles they played in facilitating this reprehensible mass shooting."

CNN has reached out to all the companies as well as the attorneys for the shooter's parents. We have not heard back yet.

Let me start with you, John Miller. This has been difficult, to say the least, to hold, especially companies and social media companies accountable. Is there any reason to believe on these grounds they might be successful in the effort?

MILLER: Maybe based on the facts of the case. Payton Gendron was a high school student who lived 200 miles outside of Buffalo in a small town, the parents of two engineers who grew up in a family of brothers and sisters. But in COVID, he went down a deep dark place on the internet, became fixated on this racist propaganda.

Here's the key -- in a message board at his high school, saying what are you looking to do after high school, what is the goal that you have. He says to commit a mass shooting, to commit a mass murder. This is flagged, the state police investigate. He is taken to a medical facility. He is evaluated. And he says I was just kidding. And from there, he's able to order a rifle, bulletproof vests, hundreds of rounds of ammunition. So, facts of the case, looking at this, you could say that alarm bells should have been going off in different places.

MATTINGLY: As a prosecutor, when you look at the role that technology companies have or are perceived to or alleged to have played in some of these, many of these issues that we're talking about, is there anything that you see as space to go after them on a legal basis or to try and bring cases to get them.

MOORE: Probably not much. Just being candid. As far as a former a prosecutor's standpoint, whether or not there was some criminal act that was done by the media company by having videos play or having content accessible with those things. You balance it with the rights to have information out in the public domain. And so from a criminal side, no.

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But this is a civil case. The burden is different, and the standard is different and the allegations are different.

HARLOW: That's a good point.

MOORE: So, there may be a way. They have not historically been successful here. But you also have situations where they're talking about parental liability and other things as well in cases, and all of these are different avenues to seek some redress here. I think the civil court, if they have any hope, is where you will see some activity.

HARLOW: Laura, there has been a bipartisan appetite in Washington to change what gives these social media companies such liberty, and that is Section 230 which basically says we as companies are not responsible for the content on our sites. CNN is responsible for what we do. They are not because they say we are not a media company. But it just keeps getting stalled. Is there reason to believe that my change? Because changing that would change this a lot.

BARRON-LOPEZ: Any time before the election, no, I don't think it's going to happen. But that is something that even, we were just talking about extremism, and extremism experts are hopeful that something like that, the law will change because of the fact that so much radicalization is occurring online more and more.

MARQUARDT: It's also hard, the policy on it is hard. And I'm not putting -- the politics is the critical thing, but finding the overlap between the two parties on the actual in the weeds policy here --

HARLOW: That's what we pay them to do.

MATTINGLY: I am very aware of that. I have a very high level of expectation for our members of Congress.

HARLOW: We do.

MATTINGLY: Which I appreciate. All right, John, Laura, Michael, thanks, guys, appreciate it.

So, will he or won't he? The new CNN reporting on what Trump could do if he skips out on next week's primary debate. That's next.

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HARLOW: This morning, negotiations are underway for Donald Trump to surrender in Georgia. You're taking a live look now at the Fulton County Jail, where the former president has just eight days left to turn himself in on felony charges for trying to overturn his 2020 election loss in the state.

The district attorney there Fani Willis, now asking the judge to start this trial on March 4. That is the day before Super Tuesday when Trump will be competing in more than a dozen presidential primaries.

Let's bring in our colleague, senior crime and justice correspondent Katelyn Polantz. Katelyn, good morning to you. It's got a whole lot going on.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: We do, Poppy, so if this is the summer of the series of indictments against Donald Trump, next year appears to be where it would be the year of trials. Now, we don't know exactly where all of these trials will ultimately land on the calendar, but all of the different prosecutors that have brought cases against Donald Trump, they want to do it between January and May.

They want to take him to trial at a moment that is also quite intense for the political calendar, especially when candidates are looking to get their party nominations. Donald Trump obviously seeking the Republican nomination. But, Poppy, one of the things we have heard so far and that we're watching to see if other cases will go the same route, is that the judge in the federal case against Donald Trump related to January 6 has made quite clear that criminal trials take precedence over politics.

And so, the idea that Trump may need to try or he wants to try to hold off his trials and his court proceedings and the hearings before that, because he has other things to do as a candidate that might not hold a lot of sway in court. Very much so it won't do much with prosecutors, but then also it will ultimately be up to the judges on where all of these thing's land on the calendar.

I'm watching that federal case related to January 6 quite closely. Because today, Trump's team is going to say when they want that trial to be, they'll put their arguments out and then the next eleven days, not only is he going to be arrested in Georgia in that case, the new case, the new indictment. But there will be hearings in other cases, including a hearing where they really get down to business about discussing when the trial will be in the federal case related to January 6. Yeah, Poppy?

HARLOW: A lot to watch. Katelyn, thank you very much.

MATTINGLY: And watching all that, with less than a week to go until that first Republican primary date, sources close to the former president telling CNN that he may skip next week's debate in Milwaukee. They say he may also be considering countering programming for that debate or even doing an interview with fired Fox News host Tucker Carlson. Joining us once again are CNN Congressional Correspondent Jessica Dean, CNN Political Analyst and White House Correspondent for PBS News Hour, Laura Barone Lopez. He could do a number of things.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST FOR PBS NEWS HOUR: He really could do anything.

MATTINGLY: That's the thing, though, and I think to some degree, people trying to figure out what exactly he's going to do is a huge part of all of this, as we've seen repeatedly over the course. I'm not frustrated or that annoyed. To some degree, he's leading by 30-plus points. He knows that everybody's going to hang on to what he's going to do and when he's going to do it.

I think my bigger question right now is calendar-wise and money-wise, how does this actually affect the primary on a tangible basis, not a, "What's he going to do?" basis, right? That was an official basis.

BARRON-LOPEZ: By the way, I love your enthusiasm. So, calendar-wise, we just had Michael Moore on here, a former prosecutor who I verified with him because I've been talking to a number of prosecutors and they think that quite a few of these trials could get delayed. So, there are these dates that DA, Fani Willis wants March 4. That's probably going to get pushed back because there are going to be pretrial motions as soon as all these codefendants get discovery.

HARLOW: Can you imagine picking a jury for these 19 Co-Defendants? BARRON-LOPEZ: They get discovery, they're going to say, no, I want this thrown out, all these different motions, trying to move it to federal court. Michael Moore just said to me that he thinks that it could get pushed into 2025. So that's the reality here where some of these may happen start in the primary.

Some of them may not start till the general election is well underway. And that's where it could be really harmful to the Republican Party if Trump is the nominee. So that's a calendar and the potential impact. And what was the second thing you asked, Phil?

MATTINGLY: You don't remember my baselines.

BARRON-LOPEZ: I'm sorry, you got a little too it was all the enthusiasm.

MATTINGLY: I think that's a critical point. Yeah, what I was asking the money here we've been reporting over the course of the last couple of weeks, you look at the FPC filings, there's clearly a crunch, not just for the campaign, but also for the Super Pac, the constellation of outside groups. Money is an issue, all these trials, all these motions, all of these dates cost money.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They sure do. And it is just going out the door in millions of dollars trying to defend Trump on multiple fronts. And not only that, you have the money piece of know.

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I've talked to experts over the last several days that say, look, it's one thing to get indicted in one case that's hard enough. To try to defend yourself on multiple fronts at the same time in multiple cases in multiple jurisdictions is a very complicated thing, and it's hard, and it's expensive and it's time-consuming.

He's also running for president, and the debate is next week. As you just mentioned it's on Wednesday, all of these things are colliding together. I was so known visually; it helps to see that calendar.

And even if things do get delayed, which they most likely will, to Laura's point, that is the issue that hangs over this Republican primary, and it is only going to get louder and louder and louder as we get closer to the day that Americans start voting.

HARLOW: Do we have any indication of when or how Trump's going to surrender himself? Because it could bump up, right, with the debate?

BARRON-LOPEZ: That's true I mean; they're clearly negotiating that right now with DA Fani Willis. I mean, it could very well happen on the day of the debate. As Jessica has pointed out before, it could happen the day after the debate.

If it happens the day after the debate again, he's going to suck the oxygen away from all of those other Republican candidates as they're trying to

actually convince voters without taking the most direct shots at the former president, convince the GOP base that they're better than he is.

DEAN: And it's just yet another example of how Trump has been able to keep the spotlight on himself at every juncture of this primary thus far, it has been pretty impossible for any other candidate. Despite different efforts, some not criticizing him, some trying to go all in on criticizing him, no one has been able to break through just yet. I do think that we need to remember that on the ground in a place like Iowa, things are more fluid than it feels when we're talking about it in the national context.

Those voters are very engaged with these other candidates. It could move around, and we do still have time. However, those candidates are really looking to Wednesday. They've worked really hard to get on that debate stage. A lot of them just kind of just making the cutoff to get on that stage. And they were hoping that this could be the big moment. But if Trump surrenders on Wednesday or even Thursday, to Laura's point, boom, that's it.

We're not talking about that debate anymore.

HARLOW: Also, can we talk about the fact that they're having to do debate prep now twice over, once with Trump on the stage and once, right?

BARRON-LOPEZ: Yeah, yeah, people like Chris Crispy are certainly preparing for whether or not they're going to be able to take it directly to Trump or if he has to then pivot and target the Ron DeSantis more. I think one of the more interesting questions that I'm focused on right now is just the overall impact. Look, right now it looks like Donald Trump is going to really be the Republican nominee.

I know that things could change, but that ultimately, Republican or moderate Republican voters that I've been talking to just really are not willing to go back to the Republican party. They don't see an opening for them and they're not happy with the way things are going right now.

DEAN: If I could just really quickly on the debate and to Poppy's point, is Trump --- will Trump not be there? Also, what I'm really looking to are these candidates who have thus far defended Trump in all of his legal troubles. So, somebody like Ron DeSantis or Tim Scott, others, this is the weaponization of the government. If Trump is not on that stage, does Chris Christie by proxy go after those people and are they then stuck having to defend Trump's action?

HARLOW: Yes, right?

DEAN: What does that look like? Well, he's coming on the show tomorrow morning, so we'll find him.

MATTINGLY: We're going to ask him but I'm spoiler alert.

DEAN: Yes, absolutely. The answer is yes.

MATTINGLY: I apologize for my enthusiasm. I get excited.

HARLOW: Don't ever apologize.

MATTINGLY: Thank you, ladies. Nice to have you.

BARRON-LOPEZ: Thank you.

HARLOW: The death toll from Hawaii's devastating wildfires rising. Search teams have not even gone through half of the burnt area yet. A report from a community burned to the ground. We have that ahead.

MATTINGLY: And Mick Fleetwood from the band. Fleetwood Mac is a longtime resident who just lost his restaurant and the fires. You're going to hear our interview with him and how he is helping his community heal, let's come it up.

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HARLOW: New this morning, the death toll from Hawaii's devastating wildfires has risen to 111.The police chief at a news conference overnight said sadly, some of the remains they're finding are of children. Search teams have covered just about 38% of the area. They have an additional 225 people added to the search effort. It's another 20 dogs as well. Hawaii's Governor Josh Green told CNN last night he estimates more than 1000 people are still missing. Some homeowners are only now getting a look at what is left.

Hawaii News Now reporter Mahealani Richardson reports from the ground in Lahaina where she walked through a charred neighborhood.

MAHEALANI RICHARDSON, REPORTER FOR KHNL: We are in the Kilauea neighborhood, which was destroyed by the fire. And just walking around, it's very hard to take in. Everything is burned, you see the utility lines still hanging. All of these cars have been just completely burned. And I have to tell you, there's a certain smell of this neighborhood. It smells of ash and chemicals and other things that I don't even know what it is.

Look at this. We keep hearing about the burned metal. Well, this is metal that was completely burned. And then you see those fine particles of ash. This is why this area's health officials have been saying that it is toxic. It is not good to be here, look at these cars. It's unreal. The car windows just blew out and then the glass was melted.

What really struck me about being in these neighborhoods was that part of it was not destroyed. And now you have Kupuna just up that road with those homes

that were not destroyed but still covered with dust and soot. They are now walking to their homes for ten minutes, to half an hour.

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