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Driverless Taxis Causing Chaos, Crashes In San Francisco; Trump Says He Will Turn Himself In Thursday At Fulton County Jail; Denmark And Netherlands To Donate Dozens Of F-16s To Ukraine. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired August 22, 2023 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[07:31:29]

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys aren't stupid. Don't be stupid. So when all of these little kids and the tech bros and the tech girls come up here and say this is about safety, really?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not ready for prime time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To give these vehicles full access to the streets 24/7 all over the city for commercial passenger service at a time when they've proven to be not up to the task would be a grave, grave mistake.

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POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: So, that is San Francisco residents sounding off on why they did not think driverless taxis were a good idea. Now, just days after California regulators voted to allow them, incidents involving these autonomous vehicles have spiked and some officials think more testing and regulation is needed.

Veronica Miracle has been reporting this. She joins us live in San Francisco. What did you find?

VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Poppy, the future of transportation is already here. I'm going to get to this driverless shuttle in just a moment. But with any new innovation there are always issues in the beginning and that is what the city of San Francisco is experiencing with some autonomous vehicle companies.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's like 10 of them.

MIRACLE (voice-over): Traffic chaos on the streets of San Francisco caused by cars with no one in the driver's seat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's like one, two, three, four cruise cars blocking. No one can get through.

MIRACLE (voice-over): These driverless cabs stalled for half an hour outside of the Outside Lands Music Festival.

In the last two weeks, incidents involving autonomous vehicles have spiked after a regulatory agency approved GM's Cruise and Google's Waymo to expand their driverless car services in San Francisco.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello? We can't hear you. Can you turn up the volume?

CHIEF JEANINE NICHOLSON, SAN FRANCISCO FIRE DEPARTMENT: I mean, I couldn't have predicted it any better. I don't think any of us could.

MIRACLE (voice-over): San Francisco city leaders, including Fire Chief Jeanine Nicholson, were outspoken about safety concerns, requesting more testing and regulations for the innovative but potentially dangerous technology.

Just days after California's Public Utility Commission voted to allow Cruise and Wayne to roll out more cars in the city at expanded times, a Cruise car and a fire truck collided. Now the state's DMV is investigating and Cruise has been ordered to reduce its fleet by half until further notice.

NICHOLSON: It could cause someone their life. When an autonomous vehicle impacts one of our company's ability to respond to an emergency incident it can impact someone's survivability.

MIRACLE (voice-over): Data from the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration shows driverless cars have only resulted in minor injuries, but city officials say that paints an incomplete picture because that data only shows crashes; not delays or chaos caused by stalled cars.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn't know what to do. It's about to go drive into this trench right here.

MIRACLE (voice-over): This Cruise car drove into downed powerlines.

JEFFREY TUMLIN, DIRECTOR OF TRANSPORTATION, SAN FRANCISCO MUNICIPAL TRANSPORTATION AGENCY: The data that we're getting is from 911 calls, which have tripled as a result of autonomous vehicles doing crazy things.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone's getting off the bus. There's no one driving the car.

MIRACLE (voice-over): Cruise's Prashanthi Raman says its mission is to work with cities and make their streets safer.

PRASHANTHI RAMAN, VICE PRESIDENT OF GOVERNMENT RELATIONS, CRUISE: The status quo of transportation is really unacceptable. There's over 40,00 fatalities happening on the roads in the United States. We've driven over three million driverless miles and we have had no life- threatening injuries or fatalities. [07:35:05]

DRIVERLESS CAR AUDIO: This experience may feel futuristic but the need to buckle up is the same as always.

MIRACLE (voice-over): Waymo declined an interview with CNN but said it's proud of its safety record and its automated driver demonstrates comparable or better performance than a reference model of a human driver.

AVs aren't just in San Francisco. Cruise is already operating in Austin, Texas, and Los Angeles, too.

Chief Nicholson has a warning for other cities.

NICHOLSON: Pay attention. Get on board. Get ahead of this. Because it's coming your way and I don't want them to have happen to them what has happened here.

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MIRACLE: Poppy, I do want to note that Cruise passengers that we spoke to all had a positive experience. And, in fact, we got to ride in both Cruise and Waymo cars and our experience was seamless.

Speaking of seamless, right now, we are in a driverless shuttle. This is called the Loop shuttle. It's manufactured by the company Beep. They have been operating over the last four years in about six different states, including right here in California.

Now, this operates right now on Treasure Island in San Francisco. It's totally free, so there's no fee. There is no driver but we do have a lovely attendant on board. This is Christian. So there's always somebody on board just in case anything were to happen. This is funded by grants and it is a new way to bring transportation here to this community.

So the question is, Poppy, would you take a ride?

HARLOW: Yes, yes, because humans make mistakes, too. I would try it. I'd probably try it myself before putting my kids on board.

MIRACLE: Yes.

HARLOW: But this is fascinating, Veronica. Thank you very much.

MIRACLE: That's a great idea.

HARLOW: Thanks. All right.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: All right, this morning, new video shows a really scary moment on an Alaska Airlines flight. Watch this.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Holy (bleep). What the (bleep)? What the (bleep)? This (INAUDIBLE).

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BLACKWELL: Yeah, that's what you call a hard landing. The plane making that landing as the left wing hit the ground, sparks started flying, and it was dragged down the tarmac.

The National Weather Service says it was overcast and rainy at the time of Sunday's landing at John Wayne Airport in Orange County, California just as Tropical Storm Hilary was bearing down on that part of the state.

Thankfully, officials say that all 106 passengers and six crew members -- they made it off the plane safely. No one was injured. Still, though, very scary.

HARLOW: Yes. Always credit to the pilots on these things.

BLACKWELL: For handling it -- absolutely.

HARLOW: Yep.

Ahead, new details on the murder of a California business owner. We told you about this yesterday -- a wife and a mother of nine children. The local sheriff says she was shot for displaying a rainbow pride flag outside of her store. Her daughter is speaking out.

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BLACKWELL: Two days from now, Donald Trump says that he will turn himself into the Fulton County Jail. In a post on social media yesterday, Donald Trump wrote -- here's the quote -- "I'll be going to Atlanta, Georgia on Thursday to be arrested by radical left district attorney Fani Willis."

And tomorrow, Trump election attorney John Eastman -- he plans to surrender, too. But that's only the beginning. Their 17 other co- defendants have until this Friday to turn themselves in on charges of trying to overturn the results of the 2020 election in the state of Georgia.

Joining us now, former prosecutor in the Fulton County D.A.'s office, Sarah Flack. And former district attorney in neighboring DeKalb County, Gwen Keyes Fleming. She's also considering herself to be a mentor to Fani Willis. So it's good to have both of you this morning.

I want to start with you, Sarah, on something that I've been thinking -- the confirmation of two big political stories of the day. One, that Trump will be turning himself in on Thursday in this case. And also, that he's not going to be part of the debate.

This is not a political question, but are there specific exposures legally to Trump participating in these debates? You've got two former U.S. attorneys who don't think he should be the nominee -- Asa Hutchinson and Chris Christie. Is he exposed in some way by talking about the case, potentially, during a debate that could spill over into the case?

SARAH FLACK, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FORMER GEORGIA PROSECUTOR: Oh, absolutely. I mean, it doesn't matter that he is the former President of the United States of America. Right now he is no different than any other criminal defendant charged in Fulton County. And so, anything that he says can and absolutely will be used against him if D.A. Fani Willis can use it against him in his criminal prosecution.

HARLOW: You know, Gwen, one thing that --

FLACK: There's just no question about it.

HARLOW: Pretty clear cut, right?

Gwen, one thing that I think is very notable -- we all do from what the judge said yesterday -- is that Trump cannot make any direct or indirect threats of any nature against the community. Can't intimidate witnesses. But specified for Trump as a defendant and not for the other defendants, he can't do it on social media.

Would things like Trump saying a few weeks ago -- calling out Lt. Gov. -- the former lieutenant governor of Georgia from testifying, saying he should testify, would that be seen as witness intimidation?

GWEN KEYES FLEMING, FORMER DISTRICT ATTORNEY, DEKALB COUNTY, CONSIDERS HERSELF A MENTO TO FANI WILLIS: I think that would be up to a judge if we ever get to the point where the D.A.'s office might seek to revoke the terms of bond. But I do think some of what we've seen so far may have influenced the judge's decision in ensuring that particular condition was added to bond in this case.

BLACKWELL: And Sarah, he is obviously, and all of those charged -- they are innocent until proven guilty.

HARLOW: Yes.

BLACKWELL: Former President Trump is a candidate. He has a right to free speech.

As he goes on to continue these rallies most of what he talks about -- it's about these cases. What's the exposure there if he has a "Russia, if you're listening" type of moment there during one of these speeches? As a defense attorney, how would you advise him during these rallies?

FLACK: Well, as a defense attorney, I would tell him -- I mean, one thing I know for sure having worked work Madam D.A. Fani Willis for years and having trained, honestly underneath her, she is thorough. I can tell you she has a team of prosecutors and investigators in that office that have been assigned to this case exclusively and that are going to be monitoring his social media, monitoring his team, monitoring anything that he says at any speech, any public forum.

[07:45:00]

So I can absolutely tell him if I was his attorney do not speak because Madam D.A. Fani Willis will absolutely use what he says, if she can, to her benefit. She will use it against him in a criminal prosecution.

HARLOW: There is an effort Gwen, right now, in Georgia because of new legislation that was passed and signed into law by the governor, Brian Kemp, to target Fani Willis. To try to take away her ability to prosecute this case -- essentially, sanctioning her.

The law said you can sanction prosecutors for neglecting their duty. One Republican Georgia State Sen. Clint Dixon explained this effort this way. "We can have them investigate and take action against Fani Willis in her efforts to weaponize the justice system against political opponents. This is our best measure, and I will be ready to call for that investigation."

Is it -- I mean, that would be quite something to see a D.A. like this targeted to not be able to pursue a case. Do you see this as a real threat to her?

FLEMING: I don't think so. Let's remember every district attorney in the state of Georgia is elected by the citizens. That means they earn the citizens' trust to make decisions on cases. And in addition to that, they are all sworn lawyers. They have obligations and ethical rules that they have to follow.

Upon taking an oath as a district attorney you have the obligation to investigate any potential crime. And if you find evidence that a crime probably happened you have the discretion but, certainly, the obligation to hold people accountable when they are alleged to have committed violations of the law in Georgia.

That is exactly what D.A. Willis did here. She was following not only her oath of office as a D.A. but the rules of ethics. She's acted very professionally throughout this process.

BLACKWELL: Sarah, if the former president violates this agreement what's a plausible consequence for that? I don't know that anybody expects that he will be taken into custody. What do you expect could happen if he continues to tweet or says these things during his rallies?

FLACK: Well, if he violates even one percent -- that consent bond order -- there will be a full-fledged bond hearing to try to revoke his bond on one of those conditions. And I can assure you that will happen pretty quickly. It will be filed. There will -- there will probably be a written motion that lays out why he is alleged to have violated the bond terms. And then there will probably be a hearing in person where he's required to attend in front of Judge McAfee and they've got to talk about why he has possibly violated bond.

But I can assure you that will be filed pretty quickly and will be heard exclusively in Fulton County Superior Court. HARLOW: But then what, Sarah? If he is -- if he does this, play that out for us. What happens if someone's bond is revoked? If he is going to be treated like everyone else what happens?

FLACK: Well, if his -- if his bond is revoked there will be a full hearing in Fulton County Courthouse. He will be sitting there at the defendant's table with his attorneys. There will be a hearing. And if the judge finds that he has violated his bond he will be taken into custody just like any other defendant there in the courthouse for everybody -- the public to see.

You will be -- his hands will be placed behind his back and he will be taken. There's a door right in that courtroom that leads to a back cell. He'll be taken back there, taken downstairs, and taken via county luxury transportation in a Fulton County Sheriff's Office jail back to 901 Rice Street where he will sit indefinitely in the custody of the Fulton County Sheriff's Office waiting trial.

BLACKWELL: All right.

Sarah Flack, Gwen Keyes Fleming, thank you both.

FLACK: Thank you.

HARLOW: So, also --

FLEMING: Thank you.

HARLOW: It was great to have them and their expertise on this.

We're also monitoring the situation in Pakistan where eight people -- and that includes six children -- right now are trapped on a chair lift. It is about 900 feet in the air. An urgent rescue effort is underway.

BLACKWELL: Denmark and the Netherlands -- they've not agreed to give Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy the fighter jets he's been asking for. So how will they impact Ukraine's fight against Russia, next.

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[07:52:17]

BLACKWELL: Look at the screen. This is what's happening right now in Pakistan. Eight people, including six children, are trapped in that chairlift about 900 feet in the air. Rescuers are trying to figure out how to, of course, safely get them down. The children were traveling to school when one of the cables snapped.

And look at the video. You can see a man rappelling from a helicopter to try to retrieve the students. They've been given medication to help with the nausea. An official also says that heart-related medications were given to the passengers. We've been told they've been slipping in and out of consciousness. You can imagine what they're feeling 900 feet in the air. Of course, we'll continue to watch this and give you updates as soon as we get them.

HARLOW: Amazing to see.

After lengthy pleas to the United States, Ukraine will now be getting the F-16 fighter jets they have sought since the start of Russia's invasion. In an effort to help Kyiv's war efforts, both Denmark and Netherlands now have the permission from the Americans to provide those U.S. F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine once pilot training is complete. Both were waiting for that permission to be able to do so.

What we do know is that the Danish will supply 19 of those jets. The Netherlands have 42 F-16s in their arsenal. The Dutch government has not yet publicly confirmed how much will be given to Ukraine.

BLACKWELL: Joining us now is retired U.S. Army Brigadier General Steve Anderson. General, good morning to you.

Does this now -- once the F-16s arrive and they've been training, does this establish the air superiority that the Ukrainians have said for more than a year that they've needed?

BRIG. GEN. STEVE ANDERSON, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Yes, Victor. I mean, this is going to go a long way in doing that. This is going to more than quadruple the size of their high-performance air fleet, so it's a really, really big deal operationally.

Of course, politically, it's a hugely important message. It shows that the Danes and the Dutch have recognized that the Ukrainians are fighting not just for their own sovereignty but for the defense of the -- of all of Europe. And we all need to recognize this.

I think that the United States should follow this example from the Dutch and the Danes and we should pony up some of our F-16s as well. We have over a thousand F-16s and we should be able to provide at least 50 or 60 over there to help them. because they're going to absolutely need this. If they're going to conduct any kind of a successful counteroffensive they need to have air coverage. Presently, they don't have that.

They're trying to root out maybe 200,000 Russians that have been dug in now for over a year -- a very, very difficult thing to do. So they need air coverage. They need air superiority. These F-16s will operationally give them that once they've been trained.

HARLOW: Once they've been trained is key. I mean, there were a number of lawmakers, Republicans and Democrats, who had been calling on the U.S. to say all right, you're not agreeing to give the F-16s yet but at least start the pilot training.

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BLACKWELL: Yes.

HARLOW: Lindsey Graham was one of them. Because it takes about four months at least, right? And now we need four more months until they can use them?

ANDERSON: I would say at least that. I mean, Gen. Hecker, the commander of Air Forces in Europe, has said that it's going to take four or five years to get these folks to do all the things you need to do.

I mean, it's one thing to learn how to fly an aircraft. It's quite another to fly that aircraft in combat when people are shooting missiles at you -- air defense artillery systems and other fighters out there trying to shoot you down. A very, very difficult thing.

I'm thinking at least eight or 10 months. Now, my thoughts on this are we could use U.S. contractors that could probably accelerate the training and put simulators out there in Ukraine and put -- and station these aircraft within 300-400 miles of the front lines.

They're going to have to do that somewhere in Ukraine because maintenance is going to be a hugely important factor. They're going to be able to -- these are very complex machines and they're going to need to have a fleet of maintainers that help them keep these things in the air.

BLACKWELL: General, Politico has reporting this morning about the return of Trump. And Ukrainians now are ramping up homegrown arming -- arms industry with that return looming, suggesting that as the former president has made clear --

HARLOW: Uh-oh.

BLACKWELL: -- that the U.S. is giving too much, in his opinion, to Ukraine.

How much can they produce without U.S. help? And how quickly can they get that up to speed?

ANDERSON: Well, I've been over there to Ukraine. It's the technological center of the former Soviet Union, so they have a lot of capability. I've been, actually, to their arms and security trade show and they got a lot of capability.

But obviously, they're going to need to have the United States and NATO's strong support. The Dutch and the Danes have demonstrated that by this announcement today. They're going to absolutely need to push forward all the logistics, all the repair parts, all the expertise they need to keep these things in the air. And I think that obviously, Ukrainian is not -- Ukraine is not going to be able to go it alone. They're going to need the United States and NATO to help them to win this fight.

We, as Americans, need to recognize that Ukraine is fighting for all of us -- not just their own sovereignty.

BLACKWELL: All right, retired U.S. Army Brigadier General Steve Anderson. Always appreciate you, sir. Thank you.

ANDERSON: Thank you. BLACKWELL: The RNC formally announces the eight candidates who will appear at tomorrow's GOP primary debate.

HARLOW: We are also learning that just hours after that debate, on Thursday, Donald Trump will surrender at the Fulton County Jail. Details on those plans ahead.

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