Return to Transcripts main page

CNN This Morning

Rudy Giuliani Leaving Manhattan to Travel to Fulton County, Georgia, to Turn Himself in For Processing in Election Interference Case; Republican Presidential Primary Candidates Excluding Former President Trump to Participate in First Debate in Milwaukee. Aired 8- 8:30a ET

Aired August 23, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:00:13]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. It is the top of the hour. We're glad you are with us on CNN THIS MORNING. And we begin with breaking news. Just moments ago sources tell CNN Rudy Giuliani will plan to surrender today in Georgia at the Fulton County jail. Several of Donald Trump's co-defendants also have been turning themselves in. The former president is preparing to be arrested and booked tomorrow for the alleged schemes to overturn his election loss in the state of Georgia.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: This is also casting a huge shadow over the GOP's presidential debate. The first one happening tonight. Trump is skipping it, and eight of his rivals will be there trying to seize the spotlight.

HARLOW: We're also going to take you to Greece this hour where deadly wildfires are raging. A CNN photojournalist capturing this intense video as firefighters are battling the inferno. And they were just blasted with these powerful winds.

This hour of CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

This is where we begin following the breaking news this morning. Sources tell CNN Rudy Giuliani is planning to surrender today at the Fulton County jail in Georgia after he tries to work out a bond agreement with prosecutors. We are told he will leave his Manhattan apartment at any moment, and this all comes just one day before Donald Trump is set to turn himself in for alleged scheme to overturn his loss in Georgia. Four of Trump's 18 co-defendants already turned themselves in this morning and yesterday, and we're waiting to see how many may surrender today at the jail.

Trump's looming arrest in Atlanta tomorrow is stealing the spotlight from the first Republican presidential debate. That's tonight in Milwaukee. The Republican frontrunner says he is skipping it. Eight of his rivals will take the stage without him.

Let's begin this hour with our colleague, senior crime and justice reporter Katelyn Polantz. What more do we know about Giuliani, because last night we didn't even think he had a lawyer in Georgia?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Yes, it looks like he will have someone to help him through the steps of the process that he is going to be taking today, coming into the Fulton County courthouse to negotiate with the district attorney to make sure he has some sort of bond agreement and can be processed at the jail, arrested, potentially have his mugshot taken, very likely being fingerprinted, all of those things so it goes smoothly.

He would be one of the additional people that we are waiting on to have his bond agreement reached and then be arrested. But he is clearly one of the most famous people aside from Donald Trump himself to be a defendant in this case, a highly recognize figure.

What Rudy Giuliani wants to do, Victor and Poppy, that we have heard so far through our reporting from our colleagues Paula Reid and Zach Cohen is that he wants to get all of his business done in one day here in Fulton County. So he wants to come in to the courthouse complex to negotiate his agreement for bond for release so he doesn't have to be held in jail, and then head over to the jail, be arrested, in and out, and be done before Donald Trump comes to town.

There's a lot of questions around their relationship. Clearly, he had been the most prominent attorney after the election pushing these ideas of election fraud on Trump's behalf, even appearing in federal court to make those claims to throw out votes. And then there was a split between the two. Trump did not continue paying his legal bills. Giuliani has really run into some hard times with the amount of legal bills piling up around him and so he is still trying to get a foothold there.

There is a question of how much he is willing to split from Donald Trump in this or if they hold together from the same perspective going forward in this case. But there are so many different defendants here. We're not just tracking Rudy. We're not just tracking Trump. We are tracking all 19. We have seen some of -- only four go into the jail so far. We have some mugshots that are starting to emerge. And so there are still many things that have to happen, not just with Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump, but the others as well.

BLACKWELL: So Giuliani is trying to get everything done in one day. And here are the four who have surrendered so far. You see two mugshots on the left, John Eastman and Scott Hall. David Shafer and Cathy Latham, they turned themselves in overnight.

Let's talk about another these co-defendants. Mark Meadows, he is trying to stop Fani Willis from arresting him at all by the deadline on Friday. What is he asking for from federal court?

POLANTZ: Well, it's important to remember that each of these defendants is taking a different tact in how they approach this process to become criminal defendants and get their court cases on path towards a trial or potentially even guilty pleas if they choose to do that.

And what's happening with Mark Meadows and with another former Trump administration official, Jeffrey Clark -- so Meadows was chief of staff to Trump.

[08:05:02]

Clark was in the Justice Department. Both of those men are right now not negotiating their bond terms, and they are not ready to be arrested here by the deadline that the D.A., Fani Willis, has set for noon on Friday. What Mark Meadows is doing is he and Clark both have separately gone to a federal judge in federal court, so a different system, and said we were federal officials at the time working on behalf of the president for everything we are accused of doing, and thus, we have the right to put this case in federal court right now. That means that we don't have to be arrested in the way that the D.A. is saying we do in this state court case.

What Mark Meadows said in his court filing was that Fani Willis, if Mark Meadows doesn't report to be arrested by Friday, she is intending to arrest him before a hearing on Monday that he has scheduled in this. Watching what happens with the federal case dynamic is going to be a lot of -- something that we should really watch closely. There could be a lot of tension there that bubbles up and that we could even see more files on today.

HARLOW: Katelyn, thank you very much. It's going to be a busy day there today and certainly tomorrow.

BLACKWELL: Talk about a busy day, let's go to Milwaukee, where we're just hours away from the first GOP primary debate. And although former President Trump will be a no-show, his legal troubles will no doubt steal some of the spotlight from the debate stage.

Joining us now from Wisconsin, our chief national affairs correspondent Jeff Zeleny and CNN political director David Chalian. Gentlemen, good morning to you. Jeff, let me start with you, because you spoke with voters there in Wisconsin, what this is about or supposed to be about. What did you learn about their concerns?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Victor, it's clear that on the minds of voters, they are really focused on the issues, actually. They are not as focused on the indictments or what's happening with the former president. But the voters I talked to made clear, I think, a good reminder for all of us, that this is the beginning of this process. The primary season is now just getting underway.

And I talked with one voter in Cedarburg, Wisconsin. It's a suburb of here that has long been conservative, but actually went very narrowly for Joe Biden in 2020. And Caroline Quinlan talked about her interest in the economy, education, and crime. And she also said what's on her mind about the candidates. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAROLINE QUINLAN, WISCONSIN VOTER: I could go for a fresh start on both sides of the aisle, both for the Republicans and the Democrats. Is that going to happen? I don't know.

ZELENY: Is there anyone who stands out to you at this point, or a few people?

QUINLAN: I am still learning about all of them. I have been really interested in DeSantis, Haley. I'm interested in her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: So I think that shows the opportunity here for many of the candidates on stage, really who are introducing themselves to voters, really who are making their case. Of course, the balancing act here is how much the former president dominates the conversation from the questioners. But voters we've talked to really are interested in hearing from the candidates who are going to be here.

HARLOW: David, are we going to get substantive questions and answers on issues tonight? Or is it going to be all Trump.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: I'm sure we will. Oh, no. The FOX moderators have indicated in some of their pre-debate interviews they are certainly going to ask about Donald Trump. Donald Trump is going to be a character on this stage despite his being absent from the stage. But no doubt we are going to get, I would imagine, some substantive questions and answers. Obviously, the FOX News hosts didn't share with me their plan.

But there are policy divides, Poppy, among this field, among these Republicans on abortion related matters, on Social Security, on foreign policy, like U.S. posture, dealing with the war in Ukraine. All of these things, in addition, quite frankly, to Donald Trump divide up these Republicans into different categories. And I would imagine they are going to try to flesh all that out on the debate stage.

BLACKWELL: Yes. We know that the DeSantis campaign and Governor DeSantis, as they describe it, they're expecting a dogpile, that because he is the highest polling person on the stage, even if that poll is 16 or 17 percent, he is going to get a lot of incoming. What is potentially a successful night for Governor DeSantis, David? I'll stick with you.

CHALIAN: Well, I do think one of the things to watch for with Governor DeSantis is how he handles that heat. I think you're right. They are setting up expectations, hey, he is going to take all the incoming, he is going to take all of the incoming. He's in that second place spot, Victor. But I think a real measurement of his strength as a candidate is how does he handle all of that? Does he crumble under it, or is he so prepared to dispatch with the attacks and pivot to his message, as Jeff was saying, in a way to introduce himself.

I know you and I, we have all been covering Ron DeSantis now for quite some time. For these Republican primary voters who are just tuning in to this race, this is going to be their first real big introduction to him in many ways.

[08:10:05]

And so this is an opportunity for him to show why he is in the second- place position and try to grow from there.

ZELENY: And I think there obviously are opportunities for him, as David said, to sort of defy expectations. But look also at some former governors on stage. There actually are quite a few of them. Mike Pence, a former governor, we can't forget him either. This is also a big opportunity for him.

But former South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley, she has been really reminding voters of her time as governor. Of course, she served in the Trump administration, but really wants to go back to her time as governor, talk about the economy. So look for her to draw some contrast with how the Florida governor has governed on Disney and other things. She has been previewing a lot of these lines. Actually, a lot of these lines have been previewed on the campaign trail. That's one of the reasons they have been out there in Iowa and New Hampshire and South Carolina. So, yes, there may be some surprises, but we have actually seen a lot of what they are doing. But the governor dynamic is certainly one I'm watching tonight.

HARLOW: Yes, that's for sure. Well, guys, thank you so for the pregame. We will be watching the postgame analysis as well. David Chalian, Jeff Zeleny.

So Rudy Giuliani, we have learned in just the last hour or so, is going to meet today with the Fulton County D.A.'s office to try to discuss and set a bond agreement. He will be traveling with Bernie Kerik, an unindicted coconspirator in the Georgia probe. Kerik's lawyer, who was also at one point Trump's lawyer, will join us next with some answers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: All right, this just in. Let's listen to Rudy Giuliani as he heads to Georgia. Here he is.

RUDY GIULIANI, TRUMP'S FORMER PERSONAL LAWYER: I got a minute. That's it. I got to make an airplane. How are you? I am not on time, who knows what they will do to me? Well, I'm going to Georgia, and I'm feeling very, very good about it because I feel like I am defending the rights of all Americans, as I did so many times as a United States attorney. People like to say I'm different. I am the same Rudy Giuliani that took down the mafia, that made New York City the safest city in America, reduced crime more than any mayor in the history of any city anywhere. And I am fighting for justice.

I have been from the first moment I represented Donald Trump, and as a man who has now been proven innocent several times. I don't know how many times he has to be proven innocent. They have to be proven to be liars, actually, enemies of our republic who are destroying rights, sacred rights.

They're destroying my right to counsel, my right to be a lawyer. They're destroying his right to counsel. It's not accidental that they've indicted all his lawyers. Never heard of that before in America. All the lawyers were indicted. Now, whether you dislike or you like Donald Trump, let me give you a warning. Is it going to come for you when the political winds shift, as they always do?

Let us pray that Republicans are more honest, more trustworthy, and more American than these people in charge of this government. If our government is conducted this way, and the system of justice is politicized and criminalized for politics, your rights are in jeopardy and your children. Donald Trump told you this. They weren't just coming for him or me.

Now they've indicted people in this case. I don't even know who they are. These are just regular people making a normal living. They're going to bankrupt. They won't convict them. Do you remember three years ago they came to this?

HARLOW: That is former New York City Mayor turned Trump Attorney Rudy Giuliani, who is expected to surrender today at the Fulton County Jail in Georgia. He's speaking outside of his apartment in New York City right now.

According to multiple sources, he's going to negotiate a potential bond agreement today, combining a process that most other defendants have spread across multiple days, one source tells CNN, Giuliani will travel down to Georgia with Bernie Kerik, who he's been working with.

Bernie Kerik, of course, is the former NYPD commissioner. He worked closely with Giuliani after the 2020 election had chased down those unfounded claims of fraud. Kerik, I should note, is not charged in the indictment. His attorney confirmed to CNN. He is the unnamed individual listed, though, as coconspirator five in the Georgia Indictment.

Let me bring in his attorney, Timothy Parlatore, who also formally represented Trump in multiple probes. Tim, thanks for your time this morning appreciate it.

TIMOTHY PALATORE, ATTORNEY FOR BERNIE KERIK: Hi. Good morning.

HARLOW: We learned a lot because last night we didn't even know if Giuliani had an attorney in the state of Georgia. Can you explain your client Bernie Kerik's role in this? Why is he going is he still going with Giuliani down to Georgia today? And if so, why?

PALATORE: Well, look, he has worked with Rudy Giuliani for a long time, and he's helping out his friend. This is a new process to Rudy Giuliani, the Georgia state system, where they have to go to the sheriff's office and go through the system there and this is not the arraignment.

This is not like in New York, where you go straight from there to see the judge and the DA. And so, Bernie Kerik is helping out his friend with the logistics of just how to navigate the sheriff's office.

HARLOW: All right, but Rudy Giuliani is a former U.S. Attorney. I mean, he knows how these things work. Does Kerik have particular experience in Georgia on this stuff?

PALATORE: He has a lot of friends, you know other former law enforcement officials who've been able to give him advice, and so he's just helping the mayor through.

HARLOW: Okay. Do you know ---

PALATORE: Just because he's a former federal U.S. Attorney doesn't mean that he knows the system.

HARLOW: So, I was asking if Kerik knew the Georgia system, but it sounds like you're saying he has friends that know it. Has Giuliani found a Georgia-based lawyer? I guess, to represent him today, he's going to have to have one. Go ahead.

PALATORE: I'm not sure. I know that as part of the bond, they usually do want you to have a Georgia-licensed attorney to sign it. I'm not sure what the status of that is, though.

HARLOW: So, let's move on to some other topics here. We just heard a vehement defense from Rudy Giuliani standing right in line with where Trump is, so he certainly doesn't sound like someone who would flip on Trump. Is that still your read?

PALATORE: I think so. He's absolutely happy to he's happy to talk about this case, clearly. But the problem that the prosecutors have is they can't really get him to flip because his truthful testimony is that they believe that there was fraud.

Whether you can question that a couple of years later at the time, they believe there was fraud, and that's not going to change just because they're threatening.

HARLOW: I'm not you're not representing Giuliani, so I don't want to go deep into what his defense is going to be, but at the same time, you cannot conspire to commit a crime. Look, which is the allegation here?

Mark Meadows, I'm really interested in how Mark Meadows and Jeffrey Clark are trying to get this case out of state court, and get it into federal court, and Trump has not made that move yet.

Why do you think that is? Is that because he believes in his team, believes that if Meadows and Clark can get this thing to federal court, it moves all 19 codefendants there?

[08:20:00]

PALATORE: So, I think that every defendant should be looking at this, and certainly some have more grounds to move it than others, such as Meadows, Clark, and Trump, as well as the people that work directly for them, such as Giuliani.

I question whether it makes sense for Meadows to be running and doing this before the arraignment because he runs the risk of going and doing a removal by himself, as opposed to coordinating with his codefendants.

He gets a hearing by himself, and then whatever the ruling there is going to be binding on everybody else. This is the kind of thing that when you have a multidefendant case, it's important for all the defendants and the defense attorneys to work together and to make joint applications, as opposed to everybody just running off on their own.

HARLOW: Maybe. Unless they think it'll harm them to work together. Which is apparently Meadow's legal team saw real value in moving alone. I just want to get back to something you just said, Tim. You just said you think Giuliani has a real case to get this moved into federal court.

I understand your argument for Trump, Meadows, for Clark, because their argument is under Statute 1442, we were all government officials. The question is whether they were really acting under the color of their office, right? What Fani Willis is saying is, no, you weren't.

Why would Giuliani, who is not a government official, be able to make that argument? What's your ground for that?

PALATORE: Sure, under the statute, it's either a government official or somebody who's working directly for a government official. So, does Giuliani have grounds to make it? Sure. Is it as strong as Meadows and Trump directly? Certainly not.

But the thing is that when a case gets removed, it would be removed for all of the defendants. Everybody that's involved in the RICO case, they're not going to split it off and do half a RICO in federal court and half a Rico in state.

So that's why I think that they should all move together on this because they all have an interest in being in federal court. But certainly, the three people who are federal officials have the strongest case, and Trump particularly, because he's already got that decision out of New York that outlines that he was a federal official and what the scope would be.

HARLOW: Well, actually, in New York, their argument to move this out of state court to federal court was denied by Judge Hellerstein. Is that what you're referring to?

PALATORE: Correct.

HARLOW: Yeah, but that's not what Hellerstein said. That's the opposite of what that judge said. He said hush money payments to an adult film actress are not in the capacity of being President. And they were made, by the way, before he was in office.

PALATORE: That's absolutely true. That's absolutely true. When I read, you know, I thought that moving the Bragg Case to federal court was going to fail to begin with. And when I read Hellerstein's decision, it didn't surprise me.

It didn't surprise me at all. But when he outlined what the standard was and he was able to draw the distinctions as to why the Bragg Case didn't comply with it, what he did was he'd described in many ways he described the Georgia case before the Georgia case even existed. So, I knew reading the Hellerstein decision back now, this is going to be very strong ammunition for him in Georgia.

HARLOW: That's an interesting take. I just want your final thought on something that did cross overnight, Tim, and that is the fact that you have two Trump employees in the Mar-A-Lago documents case, which he used to represent Trump, who are now being accused by prosecutors of false testimony before the grand jury.

And one of them is an IT specialist who's not indicted, by the way, hasn't been charged. His name is Yusil Tavares. He used to have a Trump-paid attorney. Now he is a public defender and they're going to question him again. He denied or claimed not to recall any of the contacts or conversations about that security footage at Mar-A-Lago.

Do you think that is significant and do you think that is a risk to Trump? He doesn't have a Trump-paid attorney. He has a public defender. And they're saying it looks like his story is changing.

PALATORE: You know, it's certainly a risk anytime that somebody goes into the grand jury and is going to change their testimony. There's going to be questions as to where the original story came from. I did find it interesting that Jack Smith's filing did just say that he wanted to change his story where he didn't specifically accuse Stan Wilburt or anybody of any wrongdoing in trying to procure that testimony.

So, I don't think that any of this fall on Stan directly, but it is something that it is concerning whenever you have a witness who goes in and then wants to change their story, but it also makes for pretty significant cross-examination fodder for why did you change your story, what other pressures were put on you?

HARLOW: Sure. And just so people know, Stan is the former attorney that represented him. Timothy Palatore, thank you for your time.

PALATORE: Thank you.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN NEWS ANCHOR: The father of a Tennessee Titans player has died after an explosion at his home in North Carolina.

[08:25:00]

Officials are still trying to determine the cause.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

JEB BUSH, 2016 US PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: According to what you said on one of the talk shows, you got Hillary Clinton to go to your wedding because you gave her money. Maybe it works for anybody on this stage.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER US PRESIDENT: I was a businessman. I got along with Clinton. I got along with everybody. That was my job, to get along with people. But this excuses me, 1 second.

BUSH: No, I didn't want to take more energy tonight. I like that look --- I was asked the question.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

BLACKWELL: Yeah, well, it's no secret that every second on that debate stage is crucial. All it takes is for one moment like that one to go viral and completely change the course of a candidate's campaign. CNN's Harry Enten is here now to break it all down. We saw a lot of those in 2016.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Yeah. He won't be on the stage tonight to know that he will not be on the stage. I love debates. It's one of my favorite things.

PARLOW: I love it when they do not surprise me.

ENTEN: I know, right? There are some things that may surprise you about me. That's not one of the things I think that should surprise you about me and I think back on big debate moments, and the first one that I remember coming out of college.

[08:30:00]