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Mercenary Boss, Who Challenged Putin, Presumed Dead In Plane Crash; Moscow Court Extends Pre-Trial Detention Of Jailed Wall Street Journal Reporter; Eight GOP Candidates Face Off In First Debate Without Trump. Aired 5:30-6a ET

Aired August 24, 2023 - 05:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[05:30:00]

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: This is the man who headed the Wagner Group -- a close confidant of Putin used by Putin to interfere in U.S. elections, spread Russia's influence across Africa, and most importantly, fighting on some of the nastiest front lines with some of the nastiest tactics, frankly, here in Ukraine.

This plane crash startling. A catastrophic event appears to have hit this private jet that contained pretty much most of the top elite of the Wagner Group, including Prigozhin himself, according to Russian officials.

You heard the eyewitness there. Now we are hearing that Russian forensic scientists whose cars were seen at the scene there have now arrived at the forensic bureau in Tver where this, indeed, occurred -- that is part of Russia now -- piecing together what they will present as an evidence chain as to what's happened here.

Big caveat -- we are dependent entirely upon Russian state media and Russian officials for telling us the fate of Yevgeny Prigozhin. Why is that important? Well, this is the man that led an armed rebellion exactly two months ago against Vladimir Putin, essentially criticizing how the war was fought. But he ended up spiraling into a chain of events where he essentially was confronting Putin directly -- and the biggest challenge that Putin had in his 23 years in power. A deal caused that armed rebellion to stop, but Prigozhin was somehow miraculously still at liberty for two months.

This plane crash ends that question as to what was to happen to Prigozhin next, potentially. We don't have final confirmation he was on board, and we may never get it. We may always be reliant upon Russian officials for that -- Poppy.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: I mean, that's what's so striking -- that we very well, Nick, may never have direct answers to his death and also whether this was intentional.

WALSH: Yes, absolutely. Look, people are already saying this was Vladimir Putin's revenge. People in here, in Ukraine, are sort of salivating at the --

HARLOW: Yes.

WALSH: -- Russian elite turning on themselves yet again. There are Russian analysts saying look, this isn't a sign of Putin suddenly strong. He felt the need, potentially, to kill that man despite the threats allegedly having subsided.

And so, yes -- look, whatever the truth of this matter -- and it's pretty unlikely, frankly, that this top-end private jet containing all of Prigozhin's inner henchmen suddenly fell out of the sky for no reason. There's likely there's some other reason behind that. Fundamentally, we are looking here at the Kremlin elite still trying to take each other, and Prigozhin no longer part of that equation, Poppy.

HARLOW: Just absolutely stunning.

Nick Paton Walsh, thank you for the reporting and the background -- appreciate it.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Also happening in Russia this morning, a Moscow court has extended Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich's detention. He appeared before a judge a short time ago and that judge ruled to extend his pre-trial detention until November 30. The 31-year-old faces 20 years behind bars on espionage charges, which he and his employer have vehemently denied.

CNN's Clare Sebastian joins us live with more. If we look at the trend of Americans who are held in Russia was this an inevitable outcome of this hearing?

CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I mean, I think, yes, the hearing was basically a formality at this point, Victor. He had already had his pre-trial detention extended in May, so the fact that they did it again was hardly a surprise, especially given the political climate in Russia and given the worsening relations with the United States. And given the fact that, of course, the elephant in the room here is that Evan Gershkovich is potentially a high-value swap for Russia in terms of a prisoner swap.

I think -- look, it's clear now that there is a long road ahead for Evan Gershkovich. This pre-trial detention now stretches to November 30, and it could be extended beyond that. Both Paul Whelan and Trevor Reed spent more than a year in pre-trial detention.

Then you get to a trial, which on espionage charges is likely to be long in itself. And both precedent and, in fact, comments from the Russian Foreign Ministry would suggest that Russia will want this trial to play out before any discussions on a prisoner swap can be held -- Victor.

BLACKWELL: Clare Sebastian for us there. Thank you.

HARLOW: So next, the debate question that produced this awkward show of hands. Can you tell what everyone's saying even on the stage last night in Milwaukee? We'll talk about it ahead.

BLACKWELL: Yes, and one of the candidates with his hand in the air, former Vice President Mike Pence, will join us live.

(COMMERCIAL)

[05:37:52]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Someone's got to stop normalizing this conduct, OK? Now -- and -- now, whether or not -- whether or not you believe that the criminal charges are right or wrong, the conduct is beneath the office of President of the United States.

(BOOING)

And, you know, this is the great thing about this country. Booing is allowed but it doesn't change the truth. It doesn't change the truth.

(BOOING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Real-time analysis of how the crowd felt there when Chris Christie was saying that. That was former New Jersey governor Chris Christie hit with those boos following his response on whether he would still support Trump if he wins the Republican primary.

Meantime, in just a few hours from now, the former president will turn himself into the Fulton County Jail after being indicted for the fourth time -- this one in the Georgia election subversion case.

Joining us now is CNN legal analyst and former U.S. attorney in the Middle District of Georgia, Michael Moore who joins us at the table along with the rest of our crew this morning.

Michael, just talk to us about -- I just -- we say it. It's not arrest, it's not two arrests, it's not three -- it is four and five months. And that is the contrast image people will see later today to the others on the debate stage, and Chris Christie saying you just can't do this as someone running for president.

MICHAEL MOORE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY, MIDDLE DISTRICT OF GEORGIA: Yes. I mean, I think it's a good point, and I'm glad to be with you. The issue I think at the end of the day is it's not hurting him at all in the polls but it's an unprecedented time to see a president and former president charged and arrested time after time. And he's being charged with conduct, by and large, that happened while he was a sitting President of the United States.

And so, while impeachment may not have worked -- and that's typically the avenue you think about -- the prosecutors have now decided they're going to move forward on criminal cases both in the federal court and the state court system.

So I think the coming case is probably the most complex case that's out there -- the Georgia case. HARLOW: The RICO Georgia case.

[05:40:00]

MOORE: But I also think that the reality is we won't see it until well after the election. And so, people have to make up their mind --

HARLOW: Do you think we'll see any of them?

MOORE: I don't think so. I think so. I think there are so many unique constitutional challenges that will come into play. You'll be talking about things like presidential immunity and executive privilege, and the presidential powers to declassify documents. And all of those things will be coming into play and they're going to have to wind their way ultimately through some appellate courts before we get to a trial.

So I think what Christie is saying is right in that the conduct itself, whether it's proven that he did it under the criminal scheme and whether or not they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt and convince 12 jurors in one or all of these cases that he's guilty -- the conduct -- what happened is where I think Christie is trying to hit and we'll see if it resonates. I mean, it obviously has not thus far. I think that you've seen the indictments have been in some strange, almost perverted way a boom to Trump as he's gone through.

BLACKWELL: John, we were sitting here yesterday. The question was would there be a substantive discussion of the issues during the debate --

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST AND ANCHOR, AUTHOR, "LINCOLN AND THE FIGHT FOR PEACE": Yes.

BLACKWELL: -- beyond just talking about Trump and the indictments.

Do you think -- because at some point, Brett Baier says we now need to move on --

HARLOW: Yes.

BLACKWELL: -- after maybe 10 or 15 minutes. Do you think they talked about it enough last night?

AVLON: That's a great question and I think counterintuitively, the answer is no. There wasn't sufficient follow-up, for example, when there was the raised hands -- or half-raised hands about whether you would support Donald Trump for the nomination if he were convicted, which is a pretty significant caveat.

And here's where I think we need to reality-check this entire debate.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

AVLON: We are -- Chris Christie is right. The Republican Party, right now, is normalizing 91 counts against a former president for actions he made as president. If you can't condemn a sitting president -- former president for trying to overturn an election to stay in power, what is disqualifying? What is disqualifying?

And yes, there's negative partisanship that is causing some Republicans right now -- primary voters to rally around Trump in the immediate wake of this. But the idea that it's a net positive in a general election -- the idea that it's going to even help him in a primary ultimately -- the idea that it's going to turn Independent voters towards him is just blatantly, transparently nonsense.

And so, staying focused on that rather than trying to find ways to rationalize a president having an unprecedented abuse of power that threatens our very democracy -- that's the issue that we should be focused on. And I don't think enough was done in (INAUDIBLE).

HARLOW: But this was an area where most of them on the stage actually did come together in support of Mike Pence.

AVLON: Yes, that's right.

HARLOW: Let's play some of that for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTHA MACCALLUM, DEBATE MODERATOR: Do you believe that Mike Pence did the right thing on January 6?

GOV. RON DESANTIS, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So here's what we need to do. We need to end the weaponization of these federal agencies, and I will do that.

MACCALLUM: But that's not the question.

BRETT BAIER, DEBATE MODERATOR: That's not the question.

DESANTIS: I know, but here's the thing.

BAIER: You going to answer the question?

DESANTIS: This election is not about January 6 of 2021. It's about January 20 of 2025 when the next president is going to take office.

MIKE PENCE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think the American people deserve to know whether everyone on this stage agrees that I kept my oath to the Constitution that day. There's no more important duty, right? So answer the question.

DESANTIS: I've answered this so many times already. I've answered this before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, yes?

DESANTIS: Why are we -- Mike did his duty. I've got no beef with him. But here's the thing. Is this what we're going to be focusing on?

CHRISTIE: Mike Pence stood for the Constitution and he deserves not grudging credit. He deserves our thanks as Americans. NIKKI HALEY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I do think that Vice President Pence did the right thing, and I do think that we need to give him credit for that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: And then, Tim Scott really directly said absolutely, he did the right thing.

What did that moment tell you?

JESSICA WASHINGTON, SENIOR REPORTER, THE ROOT: Yes. I think -- and I hate -- I hate saying this tightrope thing, but people do not want to come directly after Trump. But what happened on January 6 did -- it affected, I think, the American psyche. I think what people saw and what they witnessed, and the attacks on Mike Pence -- the threats to his life and the threats to the lives of the other congressmen -- I do think these Republicans on stage know that what happened not only was wrong but also the need to defend Mike Pence in this exact moment, for the most part. Most of those people on that stage I do think believe that maybe deeply but also understand politically this is important for the American public.

BLACKWELL: So the people on the stage agree that he did the right thing, but he's been heckled as he's out campaigning. Does that endorsement add too -- lead to any support among the base?

MAURA GILLESPIE, PRESS ADVISER, FORMER SPEAKER JOHN BOEHNER, FOUNDER AND PRINCIPAL, BLUESTACK STRATEGIES: Not when you still have people like Donald Trump who are saying that he could have done something and people in the far-right media who are still saying that Pence could have done something to stop the election. So they're perpetuating this attack on Mike Pence and you're not going to suddenly win over those people by being common-sense on the stage.

So I think it's smart that the candidates up there were supporting Mike Pence, and they should be, but it doesn't mean it's going to change what the far-right -- you know, what others are going to say.

[05:45:00]

AVLON: It's also the right thing to do, you know? Mike Pence did the right thing, unquestionably. He deserves enormous credit for that.

HARLOW: Great movie.

AVLON: And the fact --

HARLOW: "Do the Right Thing."

AVLON: Yes. And the -- and the fact that I think the vast majority of candidates up there didn't shimmy around that but simply said yes, he did the right thing by our country and by our Constitution, which has the added advantage of being true. That's good.

HARLOW: He got the most time, though. Isn't that interesting? BLACKWELL: Yes, yes. And I think the most passionate response from him was on Ukraine in which he defended spending more money, continuing to support Ukraine. But if you look at the polls -- especially for Republican voters, specifically -- 71 percent do not support --

HARLOW: Yes.

BLACKWELL: -- sending more money.

Again, this is one of those instances in which he thinks he's doing the right thing. It just may not play well with the base.

AVLON: But there you saw a very substantive debate about policy on the stage, and you had people like Nikki Haley and Mike Pence, and Chris Christie making moral cases for the importance of standing by Ukraine against Russian aggression. And then you had some candidates who were trying to be Trump-like, trying to sort of say well, it's not really our fight and playing sort of footsie with that isolation (INAUDIBLE).

GILLESPIE: But they also made the case for why it matters to Americans, and I think that's really where they targeted the voters, right? They were able to appeal to them by saying here's why it should matter to you. Here is the impact that the fall of Ukraine has on us as a nation, us as a society, and the global stage, obviously, as well.

BLACKWELL: All right. Everybody stay here. We will hear from the voters who watched the debate. What did they see last night in Milwaukee?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Fifteen people? It looks like 14 -- 13 raised their hand. You two did not think it was good for the party?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[05:50:26]

HARLOW: So, Republican voters -- primary voters got a chance last night to hear from eight candidates who hope to become the next commander in chief. We all got a chance to hear from them. The White House hopefuls faced off in a range of topics from the economy to abortion, to Ukraine, without former President Trump on the stage.

Gary Tuchman -- and I always love his pieces when he speaks to voters. So he spoke to Iowa conservative voters to see if there was a clear winner in the debate -- watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TUCHMAN (voice-over): In the small city of Nevada, Iowa, county seat of Story County, we watched the first GOP presidential debate with 15 loyal Republicans who live in the county.

MACCALLUM: Eight Republican candidates have qualified and have chosen to be here on our debate stage tonight.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): And after it was all over, we asked this.

TUCHMAN (on camera): Do you think this debate was good for the Republican Party? Raise your hand if you do. Fifteen people? It looks like 14 -- 13 raised their hand. You two did not think it was good for the party?

JIM, IOWA REPUBLICAN VOTER: No.

TUCHMAN (on camera): Why not, Jim?

JIM: It brought up a lot more division and stuff. But I still think it was worth -- it was worth the time.

TUCHMAN (on camera): OK. You thought it was good for the party, though?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. So it was great for the party. It was great to have a conversation with Iowans and people across the United States to see who our next leader will be for the Republican Party.

TUCHMAN (on camera): OK. Of these 15 people, 14 said they're still undecided at this point. Jim, who we just talked to, is the only one who is not. He says he's ready to vote for Trump right now.

And here's what I want to ask you about -- who you thought did the best during this debate? Basically, who do you think won the debate? I'm going to do it in alphabetical order to be fair.

Anyone think Doug Burgum did the best? That's zero.

Anyone think Chris Christie did the best? He certainly got most of the airtime -- a lot of the airtime, not most of the airtime.

How about Ron DeSantis? How many of you think Ron DeSantis did the best? That's two people.

How about Nikki Haley? One, two, three, four people.

Asa Hutchinson? Mike Pence? Zero.

Vivek Ramaswamy? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven.

Tim Scott?

OK, so this panel here thinks Ramaswamy won the debate.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): One reason those seven Republicans feel that way --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I really appreciated during his closing statements when he said there are two genders. God is real. He made sure to put those out there and made them very clear.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): And one of the reasons Nikki Haley was the runner-up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She came across as poised and confident, and prepared. And I think -- out of the candidates, I think she helped herself the most tonight.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): The candidate who has spoken out the most against Donald Trump, Chris Christie, received no traction here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was just argumentative, pretty much, and out after Trump.

TUCHMAN (on camera): You don't think there was any logic to what he said, though?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it was a lot of revenge.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): Some here feel Trump hurt himself by not being at this debate. Most, though, feel he benefited by being absent.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think he helped himself just because he wasn't able to say anything that people would use against him in the general election.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): Fifteen Iowa Republicans who will all be caucusing less than five months from now.

TUCHMAN (on camera): Poppy, Victor, with all the presidential candidates constantly crisscrossing Iowa it is very easy for residents of the Hawkeye State to see a presidential candidate in person. As a matter of fact, of the 15 people on our panel, every one of them tells us they've seen at least one of the Republican candidates in person. And some of these people here tell us that they've seen in person all eight of the people who were on stage Wednesday night -- Poppy, Victor.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: All right, back with our panel now.

And Jessica, let me start with you. Vivek Ramaswamy -- seven of those -- as you say, he had a bad night. The voters think differently.

WASHINGTON: I'm not shocked. I mean, he took up airtime. He was someone that people probably didn't know going in -- maybe some of them did -- and they kept hearing from him over and over again. I think when everyone attacks you, you appear like the frontrunner. And so I do understand.

And then, he also acted almost as a Trump surrogate, saying -- not only defending the president time and time again but also repeating his lines. So I'm not surprised that people liked that, especially in the absence of the president on the stage -- the former president on the stage. AVLON: He was amplifying a lot of -- a lot of conservative media talking points and that creates its own feedback.

But look, Nikki Haley did pretty well --

BLACKWELL: Yes.

AVLON: -- on the hand raise as well. And she has been someone who has been having a tough time getting traction. So I think that was notable as well.

GILLESPIE: And good to see, too. I mean, she deserved to have those hands raised by those Iowa voters. She was poised and she was well prepared. And she really did appeal to the human side of things, especially when she talked about abortion -- but other issues, too -- about Ukraine. And I was really impressed by her. She was probably my takeaway.

[05:55:00]

BLACKWELL: Michael, one element here that got a lot of reaction in the room was when it was a show of hands question about who would pardon --

MOORE: Right.

BLACKWELL: -- President -- former President Trump if he's convicted. Vivek Ramaswamy raised his hand high and that worked well. As we said, he also said he was the greatest president in the 21st century. So it works well when a Trump supporter (INAUDIBLE).

HARLOW: And then Pence just explained how a pardon actually works --

BLACKWELL: Yes.

HARLOW: -- because he's done them.

AVLON: Yes.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

MOORE: Yes. I mean, I think there was a lot of red meat thrown out by Ramaswamy to the base. I mean, and plus, he's a great salesman. I mean, he's just a pitch guy and he's got these lines like burn coal, use gas, and this kind of thing. And so, saying that he'd pardon Trump is just what his people want to hear. I mean, he was about God, guns, gas, coal, and that --

And the truth is at the end of the debate I think the benefactor was Trump by not being there. He just benefits from the chaos that we saw last night.

GILLESPIE: Right. But to say that you're going to pardon Trump, that means that Trump would then have to accept the guilt. And then they're saying --

WASHINGTON: When he actually is convicted, right?

GILLESPIE: -- he'd be convicted first. So there's a close --

HARLOW: When Pence pointed out.

GILLESPIE: Right. Pence had pointed it out. But then, to even a step further, by saying that you're going to offer him a pardon, that means that you also agree that he's guilty and then he has to accept it by saying that he is guilty. So if you really think through that, is that the best approach?

AVLON: Also trying to overturn an election to stay in power is somehow legitimate. It's been normalized.

GILLESPIE: It's normalized, yes.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

AVLON: (INAUDIBLE).

BLACKWELL: Everybody, thank you. We have a lot more to talk about from last night's debate. We'll see you in just a bit.

HARLOW: Some of the candidates who were on that stage are also going to join us this morning. We're looking forward to being joined by former Gov. Chris Christie. He joins us ahead.

BLACKWELL: And also ahead, we are live at the Fulton County Jail in Georgia where former President Trump is expected to surrender right there in a matter of hours.

(COMMERCIAL)

[06:00:00]