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CNN This Morning
Mercenary Boss, Who Challenged Putin, Presumed Dead In Plane Crash; GOP Candidates Take Shots At Biden On The Economy; 30 Co- Conspirators Remain Unindicted In Georgia Case. Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired August 24, 2023 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[07:30:00]
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: And people come through there and they're processed. And I will say, thus far, in the Fulton County case, to really, the credit of the prosecutor and the sheriffs, and the authorities down there, it's been by the book. It's been straightforward. We haven't had any drama. We haven't had any disruption. So let's hope that happens.
But again, he's got four battles now going on at once. I don't know if it's going to hurt him politically, but the stakes are different in the court.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: But we know it's not, Van. I mean, his poll numbers are up after all of these indictments. They're up. They're not flat. They're not down; they're up.
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SPECIAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: It's mirror world. In one world -- I don't know -- trying to overthrow the government is a bad idea and may be disqualifying. In another world, he's a martyr for -- he's sacrificing himself on the altar of justice and truth.
It's hard to understand that from this side of the table, but there are people who truly believe that the fact that they're going after him means he must be on our side.
DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER: And what's instructive, I think, you heard Chris Christie talk about his polling numbers. All eight of those candidates there last night -- if you add up their polling numbers they still don't beat Trump, altogether.
HARLOW: It's such -- but it's such a --
URBAN: If you stack them all on top of each other they still don't match Trump's numbers. So what does that say about America?
HARLOW: I know --
URBAN: Guilty, not guilty. I mean --
HARLOW: I know we've got to go. I -- you brought up the song that they started with. VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.
HARLOW: And I found that to be a really intriguing question. I actually -- I thought it -- I thought it was illuminating. I wish the answers were more direct -- but they chose that.
URBAN: No.
HARLOW: Just talk to us from a --
URBAN: Yes.
HARLOW: -- Republican perspective.
URBAN: So, Poppy --
JONES: The anthem now -- the anthem.
URBAN: -- interestingly -- like, last night, before we were sitting in the green room and we were watching the debate. And I said to Michael Moore and others yesterday afternoon -- I said I want to see who the first person to mention the song is, right? That's going to be very telling because that's the anthem for this campaign and whoever gets that and who connects with people on that is going to be a winner. And interestingly, Fox led with that and I think Ramaswamy channeled that song last night.
HARLOW: I know, but --
URBAN: I think he channeled that kind of frustration and anger that Washington -- "Rich Men North Of Richmond," the Mitch McConnells of the world are fleecing us and taking our money. And I think Ramaswamy channeled the best.
HARLOW: Was it disappointing to you that -- Martha asked this question director to DeSantis -- what do you think the song means? And it was like this big opening and he didn't really take it.
JONES: Well, I mean, DeSantis is wha wha wha. I mean, all I could really hear is, like, Charlie Brown -- the schoolteacher.
But look -- but nobody laid a glove on DeSantis, though. He came in there expecting everybody to plow on him, and I don't know if it's a praise or insult but nobody cared about DeSantis. They were trying to stop Vivek.
BLACKWELL: Yes.
JONES: That's the guy they were trying to stop.
BLACKWELL: Well, if they're at the same level, you've got DeSantis going in one director and Vivek's polling going the opposite direction.
All right. Van Jones, David Urban, Elie Honig, thank you.
HARLOW: Thank you, guys.
URBAN: Thanks for having me.
HARLOW: Next hour, Republican candidate and presidential hopeful, Vice President Mike Pence. He's going to join us live.
BLACKWELL: Russia says the mercenary chief who led a mutiny against Vladimir Putin's military two months ago was killed in this plane crash. What President Biden had to say about that.
(COMMERCIAL)
[07:36:28]
HARLOW: So, Russia says the mercenary chief who led a mutiny against Vladimir Putin's military two months ago is now dead. Russian authorities claim that Wagner chief Yevgeny Prigozhin and a number of his top lieutenants were passengers on a deadly plane crash outside of Moscow on Wednesday. The plane's final moments -- you're looking at them because they were caught on camera. You see the plane spiraling toward the ground, falling nearly 8,000 feet a minute at the end.
And President Biden was asked about this yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't know for fact what happened, but I am not surprised.
REPORTER: Do you think (INAUDIBLE).
BIDEN: There's not much that happens in Russia that Putin's not behind. But I don't know enough to know the answer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Joining us now, CNN contributor and former CNN Moscow bureau chief, Jill Dougherty. And former deputy assistant secretary of defense for Russia and surrounding areas, Evelyn Farkas. Thank you both for being with us.
Jill, let me just begin with you. Could this not have been Putin?
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, FORMER CNN MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF, ADJUNCT PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY (via Webex by Cisco): Well, I think what Biden said probably is true that something of this magnitude would not have happened unless Putin knew about it or orchestrated it. So I think that theory is there.
Everything in Russia right now is very murky. There's a lot going on behind the scenes. But I think you have to say that this makes sense to say that President Putin wanted Prigozhin dead.
BLACKWELL: Evelyn, what does this mean, then, for Wagner? Because they are in, obviously, Belarus, across Russia, Africa, the Middle East. Now with Prigozhin dead and his number two, what does this mean for the group?
EVELYN FARKAS, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR RUSSIA AND UKRAINE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, THE MCCAIN INSTITUTE: Yes, it's a good question, Victor. I think most of us assumed that Prigozhin would end up dead pretty soon once he crossed Putin so publicly. But there was the question for the Russian government of how are they going to keep the Wagner Group alive because it's very useful for the Russian government to have this group of mercenaries cementing Russian relationships with African strongmen and also places like Libya, Syria, et cetera.
So I think the Wagner Group will continue in some form but it will obviously be closely -- much more closely controlled by the Russian government. And whoever they put at the head of the organization now will no doubt be not given such a long leash like Prigozhin was given.
HARLOW: And then the question, Jill, becomes what does this -- what does a war on Ukraine without -- not only Prigozhin but his number two was on that plane as well. What does that mean for the war?
DOUGHERTY: Well, the Wagner people haven't really been fighting in Ukraine for the past few months after that rebellion. They were sent, you could say, to Belarus and they really haven't been doing much. So at this point, at least, it would appear that wouldn't have much effect.
But I think what Evelyn is getting into is could they be used? They apparently were in Belarus. There are some reports that they may be pulled out of Belarus. We still don't know. They are a potent fighting force. They're organized.
But I think the other part that's really important to remember they also were very loyal to Prigozhin and there appears be, if you look at social media and reports from Russia, a lot of anger about the fact that Prigozhin apparently was killed. And so, what does that mean? Could their discontent come out in a different way?
[07:40:01]
BLACKWELL: Yes, it's an important question.
HARLOW: Yes.
BLACKWELL: Do they fit now into the Russian forces after this event?
Jill Dougherty, Evelyn Farkas, thank you.
President Biden was front and center as a topic at last night's debate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. RON DESANTIS, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We need to send Joe Biden back to his basement and reverse American decline.
MIKE PENCE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Joe Biden has weakened America at home and abroad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLACKWELL: His former chief of staff, Ron Klain, joins us next.
(COMMERCIAL)
BLACKWELL: GOP candidates attacked President Biden's economic policies last night at the debate, but what did Democratic party leaders learn from what was said?
Joining us now to respond is Biden's former White House chief of staff, Ron Klain. He's also -- he knows a few things about debates. He worked on debate prep for Bill Clinton in '92, Al Gore in 2000, and led the debate prep for every Democratic nominee since, including Barack Obama and President Biden. Welcome.
RON KLAIN, FORMER BIDEN WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Thanks. Thanks for having me, guys.
BLACKWELL: Let me start with a nonpartisan question here.
KLAIN: Yes.
BLACKWELL: You wrote in a memo once, "While you can lose a debate at any point, you can only win a debate in the first 20 minutes." Did anyone win that debate in the first 20 minutes?
KLAIN: I don't think so. I was surprised by the fact that with Donald Trump not being there it was a big opportunity for the eight of them to really step up and stand out and not be under his shadow, and I don't think anyone really stepped up to that.
[07:45:01]
There was a lot of bickering. A lot of, sometimes, pointless bickering. I don't know why Mike Pence, who was the Vice President of the United States, decided to pick on Vivek Ramaswamy all night.
BLACKWELL: Do you think that diminished him?
KLAIN: I don't think it helped him. I mean, I think everyone on the stage is 40-50 points behind Donald Trump. Thirty -- you know, some of them are 20 points behind Ron DeSantis. They didn't go after the people who are ahead of them; they went after the people who were just similar single-digit candidates. I don't know that anyone really stood out last night. No one really looked like a president last night.
I thought the big winners last night were Donald Trump, who entered that debate 40 points ahead -- and I don't think anyone changed that dynamic -- and Joe Biden. When we looked on the stage you did not see a president on that stage last night.
HARLOW: Well -- but who on that stage, Ron, did you see as the most formidable challenger to Joe Biden on a debate stage? KLAIN: On the debate stage we know Chris Christie is a very good debater. I don't think he had a great night last night. And I think that it's nice to hear him say raise their hands or not raise their hands on supporting Trump, but everyone on that stage took a pledge to support Trump as the nominee.
And the one candidate -- let's give him some credit -- Will Hurd qualified for the debate --
HARLOW: Yes.
KLAIN: -- but would not take the pledge. He wasn't on the stage.
So you people who pledged to be for Trump stand there and --
HARLOW: So, Chris Christie is Biden's biggest worry if -- on a debate stage?
KLAIN: I would say he's our biggest worry. I'd say that he will be a very good debater. He's a very skilled debater. He's a skilled political performer.
HARLOW: Yes.
KLAIN: I didn't see anyone on that stage last night that looked like a president at all.
BLACKWELL: The candidate who was not on the stage, Donald Trump, will be turning himself in today in Georgia -- the fourth time. Now 91 counts and twice impeached. Yet, he's in a dead heat with President Biden. Why?
KLAIN: Well, I don't think he's in a dead heat with President Biden. I think the recent polls show Biden with a bit of a lead -- a small lead.
Look, this is a closely divided country. It was a close election last time and I imagine it will be a close election again this time. I think just as Biden won in 2020, I think he'll win in 2024.
I think that he inherited a country that was a mess when he became president. Unemployment was 10 percent when he became president. It's 3.5 percent now. The economy was dead in the water. We're growing stronger than any G7 nation right now. So I think you're starting to see some progress on the economy with President Biden. We're in a very different place as a country as we were -- we were two years ago.
BLACKWELL: I will say the latest polls we have seen had the two of them within the margin of error.
KLAIN: Yes. I don't think that's true for all the polls but, yes. It's a long way away.
BLACKWELL: There it is. Forty-seven for the president and 46 for Donald Trump. HARLOW: I think -- I think what Victor is getting at -- and I'm just intrigued by this -- is that yes, last time Biden won. But this polling is after four indictments.
BLACKWELL: Yes.
KLAIN: Yes.
HARLOW: That's what I'm asking.
KLAIN: Well, what I'm saying is it's a divided country. We know that. It was a close election last time and I think it will be a close election again this time. I think the outcome will be the same.
I don't -- you know, Joe Biden got eight million more votes than Trump. I don't talk to a lot of people who were Biden voters in 2020 who say they're switching to Trump in 2024. And so, if that repeats itself then Biden, I think, will win again narrowly.
BLACKWELL: For the first half of his administration and, certainly, continuing now, the president has made defending democracy in this country a priority.
KLAIN: Yes.
BLACKWELL: And I understand that he doesn't want to feed into the narrative of Donald Trump and this being a political persecution -- these federal indictments. But can he continue to stay silent on the details of the indictment without abandoning that line of argument to the American people?
KLAIN: Yes. I think -- I think -- I think he's doing the right thing, which is this is a matter for the courts. It's not a political matter. And I think that he shouldn't try to influence the courts by speaking out about it -- he wouldn't.
And I think that let the courts do their job with the prosecutors of the -- you know, Donald Trump was indicted not because of a prosecutor but because a grand jury of citizens voted to indict him. Let the citizens speak through the courts and let the process work its way out.
The president's going to run the country. He's going to govern. He's going to work on our economy and work on creating manufacturing jobs here in the United States. Work on protecting a woman's right to choose. That's his job. The courts can do their job as Joe Biden is going to do his job.
HARLOW: I want to ask you about Mark Meadows because you know him.
KLAIN: I do.
HARLOW: You did calls with him during the transition. And now he's a defendant in this Georgia probe and he really wants his case moved to federal court. He didn't even want to have to be booked and arrested yesterday. And so far, he has not prevailed. He has to be -- go through the process. And we'll see on Monday what a judge says about all of this in terms of federal court.
But I want to read you what Fani Willis, the D.A., said about him. "He has not shown how his participation in a RICO enterprise that conspired to overturn the election had any relationship to his official duties, much less how his participation in such an agreement was necessary for him to perform as chief of staff."
You were chief of staff. He's saying because I was that this stuff cannot be considered in state court because it pertained to my job to help the president.
KLAIN: Yes.
HARLOW: What do you say having had that job?
KLAIN: Well, I was chief of staff and I never tried to overthrow the government and never tried to participate in a conspiracy to do that or to block the peaceful transition of power. So I think Mr. Meadows is going to have to answer for his actions and through the legal system appropriately.
HARLOW: We appreciate it. I wish we had more time with you, Ron Klain. Thank you.
KLAIN: Thanks so much. Thanks for having me -- appreciate it.
HARLOW: Yes, nice to have you.
BLACKWELL: Thank you.
[07:50:00]
HARLOW: So, one Trump ally who was deeply involved in the fake electors scheme was not charged in the Georgia case. Could that mean he's cooperating with prosecutors against Trump? We'll tell you who.
BLACKWELL: And new reporting just in to CNN about the last-minute legal move that Donald Trump has just made hours before he turns himself into the Fulton County Jail. That's ahead.
(COMMERCIAL)
HARLOW: So, as former President Trump and others get ready to turn themselves in at the Fulton County Jail in Georgia, 30 other unnamed co-conspirators remain unindicted. CNN has identified one of those as Boris Epshteyn, the man who served as former President Trump's legal gatekeeper. Epshteyn gave direction to lawyers and others who were charged for their efforts to overturn the 2020 election.
And our John Miller explains why he may have avoided indictment for now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BORIS EPSHTEYN, TRUMP ADVISER: I am happy to share all of the information about the overwhelming amount of fraud that happened in the 2020 election in Arizona, and Wisconsin, and Georgia, and Pennsylvania.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST (voice-over): Boris Epshteyn, a key voice in Donald Trump's inner circle, falsely claiming that the 2020 election was stolen.
EPSHTEYN: Make America Great Again.
MILLER (voice-over): A Russian-born former investment banker who serves as one of Donald Trump's closest advisers, he was prominent in the push to get around the Electoral College with a pro-Trump slate of what prosecutors say were fraudulent electors.
EPSHTEYN: Yes, I was part of the process to make sure there were alternate electors for when, as we hope, the challenges to the seated electors would be heard and would be successful.
MILLER (voice-over): When Trump lawyers, led by Rudy Giuliani, called a press conference to claim massive election fraud, Epshteyn was there with them.
[07:55:06]
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: And Boris Epshteyn.
MILLER (voice-over): And he was in court when Donald Trump was indicted in New York.
But unlike many others who were directly involved in Trump's attempt to overturn the 2020 election, Epshteyn has not been charged with any crimes related to the scheme. He has, however, been identified by CNN as "unindicted co-conspirator Individual 3" in the Georgia indictment.
MILLER (on camera): Does that tell us anything about Boris Epshteyn?
HONIG: What it does tell us is that in the view of the prosecutor, the person they've labeled as co-conspirator was part of this crime, was in on it, and does have some potential criminal liability.
MILLER (voice-over): The fact that Epshteyn was not charged has caused some in the Trump camp to wonder is he cooperating against Donald Trump or others.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: He could certainly have flipped and could be providing testimony against other witnesses. Something to consider, though, is that we weren't in the grand jury room and we simply don't know what evidence they were provided. And they simply might not have evidence that they -- that prosecutors know they could get into court to ultimately bring charges against him.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MILLER: Boris Epshteyn did not return an email we sent with a list of questions about this story. His attorney, Todd Blanche -- who, incidentally, is also the criminal attorney for Donald Trump -- answered our email with a "no comment."
BLACKWELL: Hmm.
HARLOW: That is so interesting.
BLACKWELL: Yes.
HARLOW: Do you think we'll learn more about more of these unnamed folks?
MILLER: I think we will. But the thing that puts Boris Epshteyn kind of ahead of other unindicted co-conspirators is there are people who reported directly to him. An example is Mike Romans, who did field operations during the attempt to get people on this alternate elector's ballot --
HARLOW: Right.
MILLER: -- who were charged in the case, and people above him -- Donald Trump.
So, thus, the question -- what is coming for him, if anything? He testified in the grand jury in Atlanta. He spent two days with the special prosecutor in Washington answering questions there. Mentioned 17 times in the January 6 committee report. But, so far, not a defendant in either one of these cases.
BLACKWELL: All right, very interesting.
John Miller, thank you.
HARLOW: Thank you.
MILLER: Thanks.
HARLOW: Only hours to go before former President Trump is expected to surrender at the Fulton County Jail after his fourth indictment this year. CNN's got new reporting on a legal move Trump just made.
BLACKWELL: And Trump skipping last night's first GOP debate. But still, he and his legal troubles were clearly a focus of conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRETT BAIER, DEBATE MODERATOR: If former President Trump is convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as your party's choice? Please raise your hand if you would.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL)
[08:00:00]
