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Eight Republican Presidential Primary Candidates Participate in First Debate in Milwaukee; Donald Trump Replaces Head Attorney for Georgia Election Interference Case; Co-Defendants in Georgia Election Interference Case Turn Themselves into Fulton County Jail For Processing. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired August 24, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:00:47]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Eight Republican hopefuls in the presidential debate trying to distinguish themselves from one another and from the GOP frontrunner who was not there.

NIKKI HALEY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have to face the fact that Trump is the most disliked politician in America.

MIKE PENCE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Now is not the time for on- the-job training. We don't need to bring in a rookie.

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have had enough already tonight of a guy who sounds like ChatGPT.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am the only person bringing clear strategic vision to our foreign policy rather than going through the talking points memorized in 1990.

HALEY: You have no foreign policy experience and it shows.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As Donald plans his surrender to Fulton County authorities, three of his attorneys now surrendered at the Atlanta jail.

RUDY GIULIANI, TRUMP'S FORMER PERSONAL LAWYER: This indictment is a travesty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even being a very successful top prosecutor in the country does not give you immunity from becoming a criminal defendant.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A federal judge has rejected a last-minute legal maneuver by Mark Meadows and by Jeffrey Clark.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any multidefendant case, we've got 19 here, watch the knives come out. COOPER: And the mercenary leader who dare challenge Vladimir Putin,

Yevgeny Prigozhin, apparently dead in a highly suspicious plane crash.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The main suspicion is that this is connected with the state.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prigozhin crossed Putin in ways Putin had never seen in the 23 years he'd been in power.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The question becomes, who takes over these Wagner operations?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: So much news this morning. That's why we are very glad you are with us. Good morning, everyone. Just hours from now, former President Trump is set to head to Georgia to be arrested for the fourth time. And sources tell CNN he is planning to turn himself in tonight at the Fulton County jail to face another round of felony charges. Trump and 18 co-defendants accused of engaging in a criminal enterprise to overturn his election loss in the state.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: The deadline to surrender is noon eastern tomorrow. Half of Trump's alleged co-conspirators have turned themselves in. These are the mugshots, including Trump's long-time ally Rudy Giuliani, who was once known as America's mayor, a former U.S. attorney who prosecuted mafia bosses. The sheriff says Giuliani was booked and fingerprinted at the jail just like everybody else.

HARLOW: So we have full team coverage. Sara Murray is standing outside the Fulton County jail. Katelyn Polantz at the Fulton County courthouse. Let's start with Kristen Holmes. She's in Bedminster, New Jersey. That's where Trump is now before he heads to Georgia. And you have some news just breaking on Trump's legal team there?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: That's right, Poppy. Trump right ahead of this surrender is replacing his top Georgia lawyer. Drew Findling had been handling most of Trump's legal activity in the state of Georgia. Now they have brought on a new Atlanta-based criminal defense attorney named Steven Sadow.

Now, we did have a statement from Sadow, saying "I have been retained to represent President Trump in the Fulton County, Georgia, case. The president should never have been indicted. He is innocent of all the charges brought against him." And Sadow continues to say, "We look forward to the case being dismissed or, if necessary, an unbiased, openminded jury finding the president not guilty."

This is a last-minute switch-up here of his Georgia legal team just hours before he is set to go to that jail to surrender, to be processed. And it really goes to show that they are trying to take this seriously. We know that this is something that Donald Trump has been fixated on, this case in particular, these charges in particular. Him talking about this publicly and privately.

Now, I spoke to a number of Trump course sources who said this was not about Findling's behavior in any way, it was not about his performance. They also noted that Sadow is the best criminal defense attorney in Atlanta. But of course, this is still a breaking story, and we are trying to get all the details here of how this came to be.

HARLOW: Thank you for the breaking news. Bring us more when you have it, Kristen Holmes.

BLACKWELL: Joining us now, Sara Murray outside the Fulton County jail, and Katelyn Polantz outside the Fulton County courthouse. Sara, we'll start with you. Historic day, another one. What are you seeing outside the jail?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It is an historic day. And this is going to be the first time that Donald Trump actually has to turn himself in to a jail. In the past, we have seen him processed in these courthouse facilities. This is going to be different. We have already seen a couple Trump supporters out here with flags this morning.

[08:05:00]

But as the hour draws closer, as we get closer to this evening when Donald Trump is expected appear, obviously, there is going to be a lockdown at the jail. We're going to see more security around here. We're expecting that he is going to get the full security treatment, ferrying him from the airport to this jail where he will be processed.

Now, again, for a normal defendant here at the Fulton County jail, this is a process that could take hours and hours. That is, of course, not expected to be the case for the former president. Normal defendants are searched. They go through a medical screening. They are fingerprinted. They have a mugshot taken. It's not clear that Donald Trump is going to have to go through all of those steps. There are other high-profile defendants, for instance, who don't get searched.

And even though the sheriff has said all of the defendants in this case are going to be treated the same. They're going to get a mugshot. They're going to be fingerprinted, Trump has not had had a mugshot in any of his three previous arrests. So of course, we are waiting to see if that's actually how this plays out here today, guys.

BLACKWELL: Katelyn at the courthouse, let's not forget that there are 18 co-defendants there in Georgia. What do we know about the others who have surrendered, and who is still out there?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: We are still waiting to see more of these defendants. There are a lot of people in this case. About half of them have turned themselves in to the jail by this point to be arrested, to be processed, to have those mugshots taken. The three yesterday that were quite notable and recognizable to many in the American public because they had been out there sewing disinformation on behalf of the former president, that would be Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, and Jenna Ellis, all lawyers who were working for Trump after the election. They now have their mugshots taken, they have been arrested, they have been fingerprinted. They have their bond agreements. Rudy Giuliani actually yesterday went to a boil bondsman, essentially, to get the loan to pay, to put up his bond terms for the court system. And so he was able to be released. They all have been released.

But as we await Donald Trump to come into town and to also be arrested, we are waiting for two other very recognizable figures in American politics. Jeffrey Clark, the Justice Department official, who had been wanting to -- or had been considered by Donald Trump to become the attorney general, to try and overturn the Georgia vote, the popular vote after the election, he has not had his bond terms released, if he had them negotiated. He has not been arrested yet. Mark Meadows, the chief of staff from the White House, nor has he. And with these two men, they were trying to hold off their arrests, and a judge yesterday came in and said, no, that's not going to be possible. Your date, your deadline to surrender is noon on Friday. So we are waiting to see what happens with those two figures.

BLACKWELL: Katelyn Polantz at the courthouse, Sara Murray at the jail, thank you both.

HARLOW: Happy to be joined by our friend, CNN anchor and chief national correspondent John King, CNN senior legal analyst, former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, Elie Honig is here back at the table, CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller, and last, but never least, CNN political analyst and "New York Times" national politics reporter Astead Herndon, which the best shoes in television. Good morning, guys.

John, your whole project the next 18 months is all over the map. You are talking to voters. What are voters going to think today when they watch Trump walk into that jail?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's yet another example of the great American divide. If you are talking about voters at large, a lot of Democrats would say we told you so. This is why we wanted him not there. But the challenge right now is for the Republicans. Can Donald Trump be beat in the Republican primaries and caucuses? And there is a split there, but the split is overwhelmingly pro-Trump. Look at his numbers. In the national polls right now, if you average them out, he is at 57 percent. He has gone up with each of these indictments. That's counterintuitive, but we live -- the political world of Donald Trump has been upside down from the beginning.

What people at the table might think, well, history says that will hurt him -- forget history. It tends to help him. You had a debate last night where, did anybody on that stage last night make gains against Donald Trump? They were debating as if like we all thought we were going to be the Republican nominee and we were debating among ourselves, right, instead of focusing more on him.

And so will there be a point, when did this conversation start? Is there going to be a day or a thing that opens the trapdoor for Donald Trump? Maybe. But I think people who have put that money on the table have lost. Every time so far you have placed that bet, you have lost.

HARLOW: How many people said the "Access Hollywood" tape was going to be that point?

KING: Way back, right. And how many things have happened since?

BLACKWELL: Eight years.

HARLOW: Aging me.

BLACKWELL: So Elie, help us understand the news that happened -- we just reported a moment ago, a lawyer swap for Trump. Drew Findling out, Steven Sadow in.

ELIE HONIG, SENIOR CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, so it's a smart move, first of all. You need a local lawyer. This case is going to play out in Georgia. It's smart to get someone who knows the court system and who really, frankly, can relate to the jury. Juries do look for that. They can sense is this person from here? Is this someone we are going to inherently believe? That's a factor.

[08:10:03]

Donald Trump has to make sure though, now, he now has four pending cases. He has got to get his legal team in order. You can't just shuffle in and out lead lawyers on each case sort of on a whim, the way some White House staff were shuffled in and out on a whim. This is different, because those lawyers are going to spend hundreds, thousands of hours getting to know all the nuances of this case. And if you just cashier one defense lawyer after another, you are setting yourself up for a major failure. So if I was advising him on all of these, I would say, pick your lead guy on each of these case, stick with him, let him do his job.

WALKER: John Miller, to you. I think one thing that's interesting is that Trump is going to be the focus today. But Mark Meadows, his chief of staff has to turn himself in because a judge said, no, no, no, you're not special and you don't get special treatment here, and same with the DOJ official Jeffrey Clark.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: So we're going to have a very interesting day. We've had a few interesting days watching as the parade of co-defendants have come through. Some people just go in, go out, unseen as much as they can be. What we saw with Rudy Giuliani yesterday was -- he came out, he did his defiant press conference, and they got back on a private plane.

What is going to be interesting today with Mark Meadows, I think we will see the low-profile approach when that happens. But Donald Trump is going to be the critical one today because when he goes in there, we are in the face of a judge's admonishment about making statements that could be considered threatening to witnesses, co-defendants, and so on, which is a habit of his. They are talking about whether to have a press pool in the motorcade going to the jail, talking about doing a statement at the airport on the way back.

So the question today will be, is there a shift in tone? Is there an adjustment in his rhetoric based on the judge's order and the urging of his lawyers? Which Donald Trump will we see today?

BLACKWELL: Astead, we are going to go into this with potentially a mugshot coming out of it, and both sides are going to hold that up to show to their supporters. It will be on t-shirts of the MAGA supporters, of those who support Democrats. And we are on a day where an American president gets a mugshot and everybody is going to use it as a meme.

ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Absolutely. I think that's without question. I think that's speaks to the uniqueness of this moment. Before that MAGA base, this has been -- they have been careening toward this moment. I remember after the first indictment, I was outside the courthouse here in New York City, and Trump supporters were expecting three to four indictments. They were expecting it to help him rise in the polls.

Look back to the debate last night. One of the things those candidates agree on is weaponization of the DOJ being a kind of calling card for this version of the GOP. It's become a rallying cry for base Republicans. And I think that mugshot, I think that photo, I think this case specifically will continue in that vain. To John's point, we have seen over and over and over base Republicans rally around him. Even the ones who think that he might not be the best candidate for the future will say I don't think these things should go on. That is the kind of way it has been ingrained in the Republican base here.

And so the stakes of this, both legally and politically, couldn't be higher because it actually fuels the reason Donald Trump feels like he can get back to the White House. The political strategy is the legal strategy.

BLACKWELL: Yes. Again, another historic day --

HONIG: To Astead's point, the polarization and the intensification of the polarization, that worries me as a prosecutor, because if you people feeling stronger and stronger both ways, half the country is going to say look at this mugshot, what a criminal, half of them are going to say he's a martyr, that's your jury pool ultimately. And you get one person who is moved by that image the wrong way, that's a tough break for a prosecutor.

BLACKWELL: All right, gentlemen --

MILLER: To John's point, the polls going up, the money comes in every time one of these things happen. Do you think Ron DeSantis is calling the head of the Florida state police saying, can I get a mugshot without getting arrested? Somebody from marketing?

(LAUGHTER)

BLACKWELL: Thank you for that. All right, guys, stay with us.

The candidates on the debate stage, they got a chance to weigh in on whether they agreed that former Vice President Mike Pence put the American people and the Constitution first on the day of the attack at the U.S. capitol. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, (R) FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I think the American people deserve to know whether everyone on this stage agrees that I kept my oath to the Constitution that day. There is no more important duty, so answer the question.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Former Vice President Mike Pence joins us next.

[08:15:00]

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAMASWAMY: I just want to respond to Mike for 1 second because he invoked me back. Listen, now that everybody's gotten their memorized prepared slogans out of the way, we can actually have a real discussion. Now, the reality and the fact of the matter

PENCE: Is that one of yours?

RAMASWAMY: Not really, Mike. Actually, we're just going to have some fun tonight.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

BLACKWELL: Some tense moments on the stage during last night's first GOP debate, including that back and forth between Mike Pence and Vivek Ramaswamy. The former vice president pulling no punches as he hopes to boost his poll numbers out of the single digits.

And the former Vice President Mike Pence joins me now.

Sir, good to have you.

I'm going to assume you think you did well.

MIKE PENCE (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thanks for having me on.

BLACKWELL: You think you did well enough to break out of this pack and get into double digits?

PENCE: Well, we've been encouraged by the response. And, frankly, I was -- I was really honored to be on that stage, to be able to talk about the fact that I really believe with all humility, based on my years as leader in the Congress, my years leading the state of Indiana as governor, and my years I think as the leading conservative in the Trump/Pence administration that I -- I'm the most qualified, the most tested, the most proven conservative in this race.

And the opportunity to take that case to the American people and to have an energetic debate with others on the stage was something that I relished and I'm grateful for. BLACKWELL: Energetic is one way to describe what happened. You mixed it up with Vivek Ramaswamy.

I want to play a bit of your criticism of him and then ask about it on the other side.

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PENCE: Now is not the time for on-the-job training. We don't need to bring in a rookie. We don't need to bring in people without experience.

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BLACKWELL: You say he's a rookie, on-the-job training. Your last boss was a rookie. He had on-the-job training, a businessman who had never been elected, who had no foreign policy experience.

Why is it disqualifying for Vivek Ramaswamy and not for Donald Trump in 2016?

PENCE: Well, I think it's -- we live in a different time. I mean, President Joe Biden has weakened this country at home and abroad. The disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan has emboldened the enemies of freedom. We have war raging in Eastern Europe. China continues to menace in the Asia-Pacific.

And here at home, the runaway spending under the Biden administration launched the worst inflation in 40 years. The war on energy has gasoline prices still up 60 percent. Their open border policies created the worst border crisis in history.

[08:20:00]

And I just wanted people to understand, I believe this is a time for proven and experienced leadership in Washington, D.C. I know how to get things done in Congress. I know the role of states, the vital role that our states play, and I know how an administration works.

And bringing all of that experience to bear -- frankly, it's the reason why my wife and I stepped into this race. It's because we believe that to whom much is given, much will be required. And we've been blessed with opportunities to serve this country and we just felt really a duty, Victor, to step forward and offer our experience to meet the challenges following the failed policies of Joe Biden and the Democrats in Washington.

BLACKWELL: Let me play what you told my colleague Dana Bash about the former president who is not on the stage last night, Donald Trump, and if he should be president again. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENCE: I'm running for president in part because I think anyone who puts himself over the Constitution should never be president of the United States. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Never be president of the United States.

However, when you were asked last night if you would vote for former President Trump even if he's convicted for president, you raised your hand. Reconcile those two.

PENCE: Well, look, every one of us on the stage signed a pledge to support the Republican nominee. And, frankly, my hand was raised in that spirit, just in keeping my word.

But I really do believe more after last night that Donald Trump is not going to be the Republican nominee. I know that many of you in the media think this is already a rematch between Trump and Biden. I don't see that.

I think last night, the American people saw hopefully -- hopefully, they got a better sense of me and my role as a leader over the last 20 years. But also, I think they got a better sense of what a deep bench the Republican Party has and that we have -- we have better choices for 2024 for our party.

So, I'm more confident than ever that our party is going to give us a standard bear fitted to the times, someone who's going to lead us to victory in 2024 and I'm going to continue to work my heart out to make sure that's me.

BLACKWELL: Let me ask you, a few days ago, Laurence Tribe and conservative former judge, J. Michael Luttig, wrote an article for "The Atlantic" and argued -- and here's the quote: "The former president's efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election and the resulting attack on the U.S. Capitol placed him squarely within the ambit of disqualification clause and he is, therefore, ineligible to serve as president ever again."

We're talking about the 14th Amendment here.

You consulted Judge Luttig when you were given the advice by John Eastman and others that you had the power to reject slates on January 6th.

Do you agree with his conclusion that because of the president's actions before and on January 6th, that he is disqualified from holding presidential -- the office again?

PENCE: Well, I really can't comment on his --

BLACKWELL: Yes, you can.

PENCE: -- his legal theory. Look I (ph) -- I made -- I made it clear last night that I hope that all hadn't come to this. I hope the judgments over the president's action in and around January 6th had been left to the American people.

I -- I don't know whether -- whether the 14th Amendment applies. I read an article the other day that in the -- in the Justice Department's pleading, they didn't even reference that kind of a charge.

So, I'm skeptical about that. But look, we'll make sure the president has his presumption of innocence. No one is above the law.

But what I welcomed last night, and it took a little while for some people, was for every aspirant on that stage to acknowledge that on January 6th, I did my duty under the Constitution of the United States. Frankly, it's -- for me over the last two and a half years, to have Donald Trump and his allies continuing to repeat the falsehood that I had the right to reject or return votes that no vice president in American history had ever claimed or ever should claim, it has -- I think it's really misled a great number of Americans.

So having all of the candidates on the field affirm that, recognize that, because I want people to know that on that fateful day, whatever the -- whatever the process of these various cases will be, is that President Trump asked me to put him over my oath to the Constitution, but I chose the Constitution, and I always will.

BLACKWELL: All right. Former Vice President Mike Pence, it was a late night. We thank you for waking up early and speaking with us. Thanks so much.

PENCE: Thank you, Victor.

[08:25:00]

POPPY HARLOW, NEWS ANCHOR: Victor, where do we start? First of all, that was a brilliant question on rookies.

BLACKWELL: Thank you.

HARLOW: Yeah, and he didn't answer it.

BLACKWELL: If it's disqualifying for Vivek Ramaswamy. Donald Trump, he said, was ready on day one.

HARLOW: I know rookie in the same way.

BLACKWELL: In the same way. This is so interesting. And then the last question about the 14th

Amendment and this argument from a legal scholar, renowned conservative legal scholar that Pence relied on January 6.

BLACKWELL: He kind of sidestepped.

JOHN KING, CNN NEWS ANCHOR: They were both textbook examples of how these candidates feel like they are put in a straitjacket by the fact that they don't like Donald Trump. They don't believe Donald Trump should be president again, and many of them don't back here think he's eligible to be president again.

But the only way they improve their numbers is to draw supporters away from Donald Trump, and they don't want to insult and challenge those voters. And so, the vice president just said, there again, "Donald Trump asked me to break the law and I wouldn't do it,".

Right, he doesn't say it that plainly, but if you translate that's what he's saying, "Donald Trump asked me to break the law and break my oath, and I refuse to do it." But then he won't say, "This man, he should not be allowed near the White House, let alone through the gates and into the White House again. "

He won't say that part because his only chance is Iowa. Ten years ago, he was a textbook Iowa candidate, midwestern governor, Midwestern congressman, evangelical Christian, and a textbook Iowa candidate. But the party has changed so much with Donald Trump as its leader, that they are afraid they need those votes.

And all of these candidates are wrestling with, how do I convince these voters who are loyal to Donald Trump, to give it up.

ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: The problem with being branded as anti-Trump is it puts you at a political ceiling in this Republican kind of electorate. And so, yeah, there's a question of can he break out to get to a double-digit, to be a kind of alternative?

But if you are someone who has branded as against the Trump movement and for lack of facts, that January 6 moment has set in for 30, 40% of that electorate. That causes a kind of electoral ceiling and makes it a lot harder to

cobble together a coalition.

I think Pence did himself a lot of favors last night. It did his legacy favors, did his kind of message favors. That kind of clarity of voice is helpful. The clarity of voice, though is at odds, with the motivating factor of a large section of the Republican base.

So, you have someone like Ramaswamy, with all of that inexperienced, is still speaking in the language of that base when I am out on the road when you talk to those Trump supporters, they sound a lot more like Vivek Ramaswamy than they do like Mike Pence.

KING: That's right.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I just cannot make sense of Mike Pence. I didn't mean for that to rhyme, but I can't understand why this is a guy who stood strong on January 6 and did the right thing against so much pressure that was being applied to him, and now he's saying, even if Donald Trump's convicted, I would still support him.

I mean, Mike Pence is a victim in that case. They were chanting to hang Mike Pence. The court will consider Mike Pence a victim if it comes time for a sentence. But I guess I do get it now because our political experts make perfect sense of why he's trying to thread this impossible needle.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: And he's walking this impossible line. One of the most gracious people in politics. We saw some of that last now, I briefed him on terrorism matters when he came to New York and I was at the NYPD. But when you look at this impossible line, he starts off with these indictments by saying no one is above the law, but Donald Trump shouldn't have been indicted.

Last night was saying you know, pushing back against Trump, but then taking credit for the Trump-Pence administration's accomplishments. As you said, he's trying to thread a needle where you're going to end up getting stuck at some point.

HARLOW: Really interesting.

BLACKWELL: Gentlemen, thank you.

HARLOW: So, one of the moderators of last night's debate called former President Trump the elephant not in the room remember of Red Bear said that did any of the candidates do enough to cut into Trump's strong support? We're going to be joined next by Republican governor of New Hampshire, Chris Sununu.

(BEING VIDEO CLIP)

NICKEY HALEY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have to face the fact that Trump is the most disliked politician in America. We can't win a general election that way.

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[08:30:00]