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CNN This Morning
Ramaswamy Drawing More Attention After First GOP Debate; Monday Will Mark 60 Years Since Historic March On Washington; 45th President Becomes First Ever With Mug Shot. Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired August 25, 2023 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[07:30:00]
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Very conservative legal scholar, right, said to us the other week there is no Republican Party anymore. What does crash and burn look like --
GEOFF DUNCAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, (R) FORMER LT. GOVERNOR OF GEORGIA WHO TESTIFIED IN TRUMP INVESTIGATION: I think -- I mean, there is, right?
HARLOW: -- for your party?
DUNCAN: I mean, if you look at the polling, 35 percent of folks are addicted to Donald Trump and they seem to be running the party. But there's still 65 percent -- 50 million Republicans that are wanting to ask tough questions. They want genuine leadership.
And to your point, they want to go beat Joe Biden, right -- who, by the way, is the most easily beatable president maybe in history right now. And we just don't seem to want to wake up to the easy facts.
VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: And he's still 35 points ahead of his closest rival in the primary.
Elie, Scott, and Geoff, thank you so much.
HARLOW: OK.
BLACKWELL: Did President Trump's arrest steal the spotlight from some candidates who were on the rise after Wednesday's GOP debate? We'll discuss the state of the race next.
(COMMERCIAL)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VIVEK RAMASWAMY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I expect to be the next president. I expect to win in a landslide. But I will require, respectfully, each of those people to play their respective roles in our national revival, as well, in some way because this is a team sport.
(END VIDEO CLIP) HARLOW: That was Republican presidential hopeful and mister confident, Vivek Ramaswamy last night talking about how he will need fellow Republicans from the debate stage when he wins the presidency. He drew criticism from his -- for his young age and also political inexperience from several candidates during the debate. Now he is trying to seize on the attention he has received.
Of course, former President Trump is now back in the spotlight though after his arrest yesterday and all the candidates who were on stage that night are still chasing his double-digit lead.
[07:35:01]
Let's talk about all of this. Former Homeland Security and Counterterrorism adviser to former Vice President Mike Pence, Olivia Troye, joins us. And CNN political commentator Scott Jennings is back at the table.
Scott, I want to start with you. You know this party very well. I'm digging through here looking for -- OK, here is The Wall Street Journal front page -- "Political Rookie Upstages His Rivals at the Republican Debate." He does not lack confidence. He does lack experience but he's got a lot of success in business. He's obviously been intriguing to Republicans.
What are you hearing?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Well, he's -- he is channeling -- aping Trump. I mean, everything about him is trying to rerun and recreate the Trump playbook. The trouble is Trump is still in the race and --
HARLOW: Yes.
JENNINGS: -- he's sort of serving as just a surrogate for Trump. And so I don't know how he expects to get the nomination --
HARLOW: Yes.
JENNINGS: -- and be the next president in a landslide.
HARLOW: Well, Brett Baier just -- and Martha MacCallum did an interview after they --
JENNINGS: Yes.
HARLOW: -- moderated, which I think they did a great job at, by the way. And Brett Baier said he wished he had, in that moment, asked him --
JENNINGS: Yes.
HARLOW: -- if you Trump is the best president in the 21st century, then why are you running?
JENNINGS: He lacks -- you have to remember back in '16, Trump had a likeability factor and people knew who he was before he came into the race. They kind of liked Trump. He said crazy things but people just kind of liked him.
You know, there's a reason that, like, Scooby-Doo is one of the most beloved characters in animation and Scrappy-Doo is one of the most despised characters.
BLACKWELL: Oh, I love Scrappy-Doo.
JENNINGS: We've got Scooby and Scrappy here. And I just think this act is going to wear thin. People still love Scooby.
HARLOW: Well, is that -- is that a ticket -- Scooby -- is that a ticket?
BLACKWELL: I like Scrappy-Doo.
Olivia, let me come back to you. We're talking about single-digit candidates here. I mean, the person here who has more than half of the support is Donald Trump.
Does anything that happened over the last 48 hours or so change that share -- that he's far and ahead and maybe Ramaswamy gets into double- digits?
OLIVA TROYE, FORMER PENCE HOMELAND SECURITY AND COUNTERTERRORISM ADVISER: No. Unfortunately, as much as I would like to see this moment in time pass, I think Trump remains the frontrunner. I think he was on stage that night. He had his proxy up there, like Scott said.
Ramaswamy was pretty much mini-me up there and he was pretty much parroting everything that Trump has said and positions that Trump has taken in the past. While Trump was omnipresent throughout the debate, he was the elephant in the room so to speak. I had hoped that we would see a breakthrough.
But look, Trump is out there fundraising based on his mug shot yesterday. I would think that we would want to take that moment more seriously for this time in our country. But it is what it is. The grift continues.
BLACKWELL: But there's also the portion -- there's another portion of the interview with Laura Ingraham that I think really sells the point here. There -- he's answering some question, kind of giving his pitch, and then this happens -- watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAMASWAMY: I do think it's an important point to pause on where the left feeds our vacuum of purpose with race, gender, sexuality, climate. And I do think we as conservatives need to now level up --
LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST, "THE INGRAHAM ANGLE": How?
RAMASWAMY: -- so we're not just criticizing that agenda but offer an actual vision of our own -- individual family, nation, God. I'm leading the way on that but I'm going to need the other people on that stage to play their part in our revival, too. (INAUDIBLE).
INGRAHAM: All right, Vivek, we've got to get back -- we've got to get back to the Trump chase here, but thank you for joining us.
RAMASWAMY: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLACKWELL: That's the race --
JENNINGS: Yes.
BLACKWELL: -- Scott. That's the race. He's making a pitch. He's trying to sell on policy. Sorry, we've got to go over here and follow one of the cases.
JENNINGS: Yes, and there's no differentiating between him and Trump. He's got no area where he says this is how I will be different and, therefore, a better candidate. He said Trump is the best candidate in the 21st century. He has gone to the courthouse in cases where Trump has been indicted and arraigned. It is a pure Trump surrogacy.
And after all the debate, who did Trump thank? Ramaswamy. Because he's hurting DeSantis. I mean -- I mean, he is the guy who's trying to sort of drag DeSantis down. And DeSantis is the only candidate they're worried about -- the Trump camp -- which is why Trump continues to attack him and send their surrogate out to attack him.
HARLOW: Olivia, you worked closely with former Vice President Mike Pence. I think we saw the most aggressive, combative Mike Pence I've ever seen. I wonder if you've seen that on the debate stage. But guess who he was most of that toward -- Vivek Ramaswamy. That was interesting.
TROYE: Yes, I found that interesting as well. Look -- hey, I was proud of my former boss. It looks like he finally found his voice. He came out swinging and I think that's very unlike Mike Pence normally. He's a very nonconfrontational individual. But I think he's going to need to maintain that level of, sort of, presence on stage and continue to push back on people. And I hope that he'll stay the course going forward.
But like you said, he was pushing back on who, Ramaswamy -- which is interesting, right? Because for a while there it was always about DeSantis. DeSantis was like the second in command waiting and he's been, sort of, the second person in the polling. But it's interesting that, really, the attacks were directed at Vivek, who I guess was seen as Trump.
[07:40:00]
But I would say this. The one thing I would caution about the -- sort of, the counters on Vivek is there was -- there was a lot of talk about his inexperience, which I think it's important. Inexperience on foreign policy, which I think Nikki Haley did a great job on. But the age thing -- I would kind of -- I would kind of take a pause
on that because I want to remind people that Gen Z is a powerful voting bloc, right? They -- I do believe that they will make a difference in the upcoming elections. And so, just remember that those young voters are also listening to what you're saying.
BLACKWELL: All right. Olivia Troye and Scott Jennings, thank you.
HARLOW: It's hard to believe it has been 60 years since that historic march on Washington where Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. gave his "I Have A Dream" speech. Our Jason Carroll sat down with activists who were there that day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EDWARD FLANAGAN, ATTENDED THE 1963 MARCH ON WASHINGTON: We are still, while in a much better place than we were in '63, not in the place where one would expect 60 years on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL)
BLACKWELL: Monday will mark the 60th anniversary of the historic civil rights march on Washington. Two hundred fifty thousand people from across the country flooded the streets, flooded the Mall there in Washington to fight for jobs and freedom and help lead to new laws, including the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which outlawed overt racial discrimination. Yet, of course, the fight for equality is really never over.
CNN's Jason Carroll joins us now. I'm glad we are doing this. I'm glad --
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Me, too.
BLACKWELL: -- you have done this.
CARROLL: Thank you.
BLACKWELL: You spoke with some people who were there --
CARROLL: Yes.
BLACKWELL: -- 60 years ago. Tell us about those conversations.
[07:45:00]
CARROLL: Well, first of all, let me just explain. The theme this year and it says so much of the march this year is a commemoration; not a continuation. So it's a continue to push for civil rights.
And as you said, I did speak to two men, if you can believe it, who were there 60 years ago. I spoke to them about the march. I also spoke to them about where they saw the country then versus where it is now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CARROLL (voice-over): It was a call for economic and racial equality -- a call to action that brought more than 200,000 to the National Mall in Washington, D.C. on August 28, 60 years ago. A day best remembered for Martin Luther King Jr.'s historic "I Have A Dream" speech.
MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. BAPTIST MINISTER AND ACTIVIST: Now is the time to make real the promises of democracy.
CARROLL (voice-over): Among the hundreds of thousands, two young activists who were filled with hope.
COURTLAND COX, CHAIRMAN, SNCC LEGACY PROJECT: I was all the way on the top.
CARROLL (on camera): All the way on the top --
COX: Yes.
CARROLL (on camera): -- over to the left.
COX: Yes, over to the left.
CARROLL (voice-over): Courtland Cox is now 82. But 60 years ago, he was a 22-year-old working for the civil rights organization SNCC, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.
COX: And what I remember is the platform there in the center.
CARROLL (voice-over): Edward Flanagan was there, too.
CARROLL (on camera): Where were you? Do you remember?
FLANAGAN: I was sitting on the wall up top there by the entertainers.
CARROLL (voice-over): Flanagan is 80 now. But on the day of the march he was a 20-year-old who had just finished his shift as a waiter. Like scores of others, he wanted to take a stand for civil rights.
FLANAGAN: I was very close to Joan Baez, OK? I was able to notice she was barefoot and I had on a new pair of shoes.
CARROLL (on camera): She was barefoot?
FLANAGAN: She was barefoot.
JOAN BAEZ, SINGER, SONGWRITER, MUSICIAN, ACTIVIST: Singing "We Shall Overcome."
CARROLL (voice-over): A march, six decades ago, now seen through the eyes of two different men who shared the same goal many did that day.
FLANAGAN: It was, in fact, a march for jobs and freedom.
COX: Our thought today is that we succeeded in changing this country. CARROLL (voice-over): As a young organizer, Cox was responsible for
arranging safe transportation for people making the trek from the south to Washington, D.C. He says there were challenges from top to bottom and much had to be done in very little time.
COX: The challenge from the bottom was the logistics of getting people here. Over a period, I'm trying to get Trailways buses, I'm trying to get Greyhound buses, and the drivers are saying look, it's dangerous bringing people from the south. The challenge from the top was the Kennedy administration was opposed to John Lewis' speech.
CARROLL (voice-over): Cox worked alongside then-23-year-old civil rights activist John Lewis, who was the chairman of SNCC. This picture shows the two men as they rewrote the speech to tone it down -- to make it less critical of the Kennedy administration's civil rights bill, which they felt didn't go far enough to protect people from police brutality.
COX: John Lewis, Jim Forman, and myself were in the back of the Lincoln Memorial rechanging John Lewis' speech to make sure that while it was critical that it was not negative.
CARROLL (on camera): That had to have been an incredible moment.
COX: Well, yes -- which was more incredible to me is that John got up after all of that controversy and delivered a fantastic speech.
JOHN LEWIS, AMERICAN POLITICIAN AND CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: It is true that we support the administration's civil rights bill. We support it with great reservation, however.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've never been here before.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You've never been here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've never been here before.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, that's very --
CARROLL (voice-over): This week, Flanagan brought his daughters back to the place history was made. He'll be back again Saturday.
FLANAGAN: That's the side where the entertainers were.
CARROLL (voice-over): Cox prefers to stay away this time, saying his marching days are behind him.
Both agree while much was accomplished that day the work is not over.
FLANAGAN: We are still, while in a much better place than we were in '63, not in the place where one would expect 60 years on.
COX: We succeeded in doing a number of things by what we did in the past, but we also know that we have to do much more for the future.
(END VIDEOTAPE) CARROLL: Of great concern to Mr. Cox and Mr. Flanagan is when they see the push to change how African American studies are taught in the United States. These are people who lived through lynchings. They lived through not having access to jobs or education. Again, a reminder that this is a fight for them that is not over.
BLACKWELL: Yes. These men are national treasures. I mean, I can only imagine the conversations you were afforded with them.
And when we look -- as they said, these school districts now are trying to rob students of learning about not only what these men fought against but also, in some cases, these actual events.
CARROLL: Right. And that's why there is this great concern not only about concerns about getting jobs in this current day and age but also, that much of what they went through is going to be a race and they want to make sure that this is something that does not happen.
[07:50:00]
HARLOW: Told in the beautiful way you always do, Jason.
CARROLL: Oh, well.
HARLOW: Really, truly, thank you for doing that.
BLACKWELL: Thank you, Jason.
CARROLL: Thank you.
HARLOW: We appreciate it.
OK. Former President Trump's campaign is already fundraising in unique ways off his booking and his mug shot last night. Where will his new mug shot stack up though against some of the most famous in history?
(COMMERCIAL)
HARLOW: A stunning split screen -- Donald Trump's official presidential picture and the mug shot from his arrest yesterday. He is the first former president to have his mug shot taken, begging the question, what will his legacy be and the legacy of this photo, right?
He is hardly the first prominent figure in American history to have a mug shot memorialized, from civil rights icons Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Rosa Parks, John Lewis. Criminals and crime bosses like Al Capone, John Gotti, Lee Harvey Oswald, and Jeffrey Epstein, as well as people like O.J. Simpson, Robert Downey Jr., Nick Nolte, and James Brown.
Our correspondent Tom Foreman is with us this morning to walk us through the most noteworthy mug shots. This one will certainly be remembered but it's alongside others, too.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it really is. And you pointed it out there Poppy very well. There really are at least three categories of mug shots. There are the sure-enough criminals -- the people who we all know are there because of serious crimes and who eventually get convicted of serious crimes and move on.
Then there are the celebrity mug shots that would come up -- people who in some way or another have stumbled into a run-in with the law. Maybe public drunkenness. Maybe something like this in the case of O.J. Simpson -- very serious charges.
[07:55:01]
But other charges out there. In the case of Nick Nolte, it was a drug abuse issue, which he said helped drive him into rehab to make things better for him.
Those often become lesser issues, in a way. They're big celebrity causes but they don't necessarily have a giant impact on the whole of society.
And then there are those who are people who really have stood for some kind of giant moment in the rights of Americans and the fight for rights, and the fight for justice in this country. One hundred percent, Donald Trump and his followers want to see him as fitting into that category of standing up for something right.
In fact, some of his supporters had said that they are -- some in his camp said that when he had the mug shot taken he wanted to appear defiant. I don't know if you're going to see him as defiant. Many people in this country where he's always been a minority president are going to say he doesn't look defiant to me.
But those are really sort of the three categories of people out there. And with politicians, there have been others who have had their photographs taken like this before -- John Edwards, Tom Delay, Rick Perry. Interestingly, John Edwards for using campaign funds to try to hide an illicit affair out there. That sounds a little bit familiar.
So, Poppy, we've seen a lot of these before. They don't all mean the same thing.
HARLOW: What's the history of the mug shot, Tom?
FOREMAN: The history? I think the history of the mug shot is very interesting. It goes back to 1888 -- French. Alphonse Bertillon, who was a police officer -- they had been taking photographs of people who they arrested but they were taken from all different kinds of ways. And he thought we should have a standardized way of doing it. So this is him. The very first mug shot was of him and he was innocent.
So we'll see what happens as the Trump mug shot plays out. He would like it to be something triumphant in the end. This is the first time, though, we know that has been tied to the presidency. And we know millions of times they've been tied to the penitentiary -- Poppy.
BLACKWELL: All right, Tom Foreman, thank you.
FOREMAN: My pleasure. BLACKWELL: More of Trump's 18 co-defendants turned themselves in overnight. Still, two more to turn themselves in by noon Eastern. The deadline a little more than four hours away.
HARLOW: We also have this ahead for you. This is the moment that Shamel Capers first saw his daughter after spending eight years in prison. A new unit within the Queens District attorney's office fought to get his murder conviction vacated after new evidence came to light.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Do you think you'd still be in jail if it were not for the Conviction Integrity Unit?
SHAMEL CAPERS, WRONGFULLY CONVICTED OF MURDER, FREED AFTER EIGHT YEARS IN PRISON: Yes. I would still be fighting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
