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Special Counsel Jack Smith Pushing for January Start to Federal Election Interference Trial against Former President Trump; Some Codefendants in Georgia Election Interference Case Asking for Speedy Trial; Sheriff: Three Killed in Jacksonville, White Gunman Targeted Black People. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired August 28, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Good Monday morning, everyone. Poppy is off this week. We've got Sara Sidner here, which is good, because we have a lot of news.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: It is. And we like news.

MATTINGLY: And we're bringing it today on Monday.

SIDNER: I'm trying.

MATTINGLY: And we're going to start with Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis who is set to lay out the details of her case against Former President Trump. It's part of his former chief of staff Mark Meadows's big to get his own case moved to federal court.

SIDNER: At the same time, Trump's legal team will appear in court in Washington, D.C., as part of his federal election interference case. The judge, by the way, could set a trial date for that case as soon as today.

MATTINGLY: Well, that as the Justice Department is now investigating a deadly shooting in Jacksonville, Florida, over the weekend as a hate crime. The sheriff there says a white gunman targeted and killed three black people at a store after first going to a predominantly black university and being turned away. That sheriff will join us live just ahead.

This hour of CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

MATTINGLY: And we are just two hours away from two crucial court hearings involving two of the four cases against former President Donald Trump. One is in Washington, and the special counsel's election interference case, the other in Georgia, where Trump and 18 co- defendants are accused of subverting the 2020 election there.

SIDNER: In the D.C. federal case, the hearing is over when to hold the trial for Donald Trump. Special Counsel Jack Smith is pushing for a January start. So in just a few months, Trump and his team say the trial should not be until April 2026, long after next year's presidential election.

And in today's hearing in Georgia, former Trump White House chief of staff Mark Meadows is hoping to get his case moved from state court to federal court. And it also could be the first time we see Fulton County D.A. Fani Willis sketching out parts of her evidence in the sprawling anti-racketeering case against Meadows, Donald Trump, and the 17 other co-defendants. Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, who Trump pressured to find enough votes to win the state on that infamous phone call, has been subpoenaed to testify.

MATTINGLY: We have full team coverage of both cases. CNN senior justice correspondent Evan Perez is outside the U.S. district court in Washington. But we're going to start with CNN senior crime and justice reporter Katelyn Polantz, outside the federal courthouse in Atlanta. Katelyn, starting with you, walk us through what we're expecting today.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Phil, today is the opening salvo of any of the criminal cases against Donald Trump as far as evidence presentation goes in court. What's going to be happening today in this federal court in downtown Atlanta is that Mark Meadows and his lawyers, his lawyers at the very least, are going to be here. And they're going to be trying to show a judge that what he was doing after the election that has become part of the allegations against Donald Trump and 18 others in this racketeering case that Georgia has brought against them, they're going to try and show that Mark Meadows was doing his job as the White House chief of staff, something that was under his official duties, that he was operating in good faith.

The District Attorney Fani Willis, she does not want him to be able to show that. And so she's going to be presenting evidence that we know of already, including witness testimony from Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, from an investigator from Georgia, from two lawyers that were affiliated with Donald Trump after the election. And that witness testimony, what she's going to be trying to do with that is show that Mark Meadows, as he was facilitating calls between Donald Trump and Georgia, Georgia Secretary of State Raffensperger, others, and also as Mark Meadows was potentially reaching out to state legislators, all of that effort was political.

And it will be up to a judge ultimately to decide who wins. We might not get a ruling today, but it's important here what the judge does and what the judge says, because when the judge makes a determination on this, it is the question of, does this case stay in state court, where the D.A. has charged it, or does this become a proceeding in federal court, where Meadows and others who worked for the federal government, potentially even Donald Trump himself, have more protection around them because they were federal officials at the time of this 2020 election allegations.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it's a critical question. Swinging over to the federal case now, the federal side and Evan Perez. Evan, what does the Trump legal team want, and what do we expect the special counsel is looking for today?

[08:05:02] EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Phil, what they're trying to do is buy some time for the former president. As you know, he's running for office, he's running for president again, and he is trying everything he can to delay all of these proceedings before he has to stand before the voters in November of 2024. They've asked for an April 2026 trial date. That's something that judge, Judge Tonya Chutkan has indicated she is inclined to try to set a trial date at this hearing today, perhaps as soon as today.

And we know that Jack Smith, the special counsel, he's asking for a trial in January of 2024. Now, the former president's legal team is saying, look, we're buried under millions and millions of pages of documents that were produced as part of this case, and of course, his other case. This case is very narrow in comparison to the one that was brought in Georgia, the one that Katelyn is covering. He's facing four charges. One of them is defrauding the United States, obstructing Congress, and of course, disenfranchising voters in the states where the former president was trying to overturn the elections.

We expect that Judge Chutkan is going to force the two sides to perhaps defend why they want these trials on their particular days. But what we expect, Phil and Sara, is that Judge Chutkan wants to have this trial perhaps next spring, next summer, before the election. She's already signaled that she believes this is a case of importance for voters and for the American public for the determination to be made before the election. Guys?

MATTINGLY: All right, big day for both of you guys, Katelyn Polantz and Evan Perez. Thanks, guys.

SIDNER: Joining us right now, we have got a crack team in here with us today. CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig, national correspondent for "The Washington Post," Philip Bump, who also has a great book called "The Aftermath," and former deputy White House press secretary under Donald Trump, Sarah Matthews, as well as CNN political analyst and national politics reporter for "The New York Times," Astead Herndon. I will not forget you again, even though you're not in the studio. So happy you're back.

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ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Thank you, I appreciate it.

I'm going to start with you, Elie. What should we expect from these hearings today? Hopefully getting a date, also seeing, maybe, a case laid out for us, right?

ELIE HONIG, SENIOR CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, so I think, first of all, starting with the Mark Meadows motion to move into federal court, we're going to see live testimony -- we're not going to see it, because it's not going to be on camera, but the judge will see live testimony from Brad Raffensperger, the person we've heard so many times on that famous phone call. He will testify. Also from this investigator, Frances Watson, who was pressured by Mark Meadows and others to try to recount some of the votes. So this is going to be the first time we see live testimony in relation to any of these cases. On the D.C. case, the trial date is so important. There's this wide

gap where Trump's team has asked for 2026, and DOJ wants it in January of 2024. Both of those, I think, are unrealistic. It does seem clear to me, as everyone is saying, that Judge Chutkan is going to set a date before the election, but where does it land?

MATTINGLY: Astead, as somebody who's out on the trail and constantly talking to voters, I care less about -- I guess, I'm less interested at this moment in, what does the Republican primary electorate think about Trump? We got it, we see it, pretty much on a daily basis. But for me, campaign organizations, actual mechanics perspective, where I think this could really have an effect, the calendar and the money. When you talk about a campaign, even if you're plus 30, plus 40 in the polls, where do you see this having the biggest impact?

HERNDON: I think you really identified it. It's in that calendar and it's in the amount of money that the Trump campaign is going to have to spend on this legal defense. When you talk to people who are close to the campaign, they're not really foremost concerned about the political fallout, the kind of stuff we talk about all the time. They're really concerned about, where does he physically have to be in the year of 2024, and how much wiggle room will he have to actually get out on the trail, or will it be all wrapped up in these kind of -- in these legal trials.

I think the calendar is usually important, and then you kind of overestimate the amount of money that has to be spent here and how much that has weighed on Trump and those around him, that we know that the apparatus of the Republican party has lent itself to him as he's faced some of these legal problems. But I think that that's even going to become more -- that pressure is only going to become more intense. I mean, this is the real necessity of him winning this primary, because I think, if a Republican nominee for the next election is standing in front of all of those indictments, that's a little different than the former president standing in front of those indictments.

And so the campaign sees its legal strategy as political, not just because it puts it in a different mind for voters, but actually foremost because it might lend itself to getting some financial backing and also kind of create some wiggle room on the calendar front. They don't want to be in courtrooms all year during 2024, and that's actually how this is turning out to have biggest impact.

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SIDNER: Philip, now to you. You have this really good article where you kind of went through Trump's post-surrender comments, arguments. It was kind of campaign style reaction to it. How did you see it? Did you see anything in there that you were surprised to learn, or was this the same-old, same-old?

PHILIP BUMP, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Exactly, I was not particularly surprised. And you're right, basically what happened is Donald Trump went down to Fulton County. Right afterward he stopped before he got on his plane to fly back to New Hampshire and he made these comments. We've seen him do this before. We've seen this with the arraignments in Florida, for example, he went out afterward and went to that bakery and was schmoozing people, right?

And so yes, what he did, though, is he made this very pointed political calculation. Astead is absolutely correct that there are these other nonpolitical concerns, but politics is at the heart of that. He needs to maintain this energy with his base, and he needs to maintain them giving him money, right? And so he makes these arguments as he's standing on the tarmac in Georgia that are really centered on how he is the target of this oppressive force, the elites are out to get him. It's the same standard pattern that we've seen before, with some very specific things to Georgia about this case as opposed to the federal ones.

But this is what he's trying to do. He saw this big jump in both support and fundraising after the indictment in Manhattan. He didn't see as much after the federal indictments, and I think he's hoping that once again this local indictment, where he can really focus on someone who isn't Jack Smith, and who is a black woman, that he can focus on that as being -- he can parlay that into money.

MATTINGLY: And if you look at the numbers, the first day, four plus million, I think $7.1 million up to this point. It's borne out that it has been much closer to what we saw after the first indictment than actually more so.

And Sarah, I guess my question is, when you talk to Republicans behind the scenes, you often hear a very different story about their feelings about Trump and the Trump campaign. But from the donor perspective, like, they're not getting that money from big donors, and I'm not totally sure how sustainable it is long-term. Are big Republican donors looking around saying, four indictments, look, we'll be there in the general? Because that's the question money wise that I have right now. How sustainable is that when this is all small dollar, and at some point you're going to need big dollar.

SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY, TRUMP ADMINISTRATION: Yes. I've long believed that Trump jumped into the 2024 race because he knew he was facing legal troubles and he wanted to be able to fundraise off of it. And then also he can claim that this is politicization, he can use this as a shield and say that they're coming after him because he's a candidate. But if I'm a big donor, I don't necessarily want to donate to him, because I see that he's using these donations to go toward not just funding his own legal fees, but his co-defendants legal fees. And I think I would hold off until the general.

And I think that these big donors are having trouble identifying, though, who they want to put their money into for a primary right now. There's been a lot of different names thrown out. DeSantis was kind of the first person that they were eyeing. And now that his poll numbers have seemed to decline, I think they're looking for someone else to put their money into to potentially defeat Donald Trump in a primary. But that hasn't happened yet.

SIDNER: It will be interesting to see. I just want to ask one last question to you, Elie. What if everyone in Georgia -- I know this is a what if, but I couldn't help myself -- if everyone says I want a speedy trial, what happens? How could they do it? Two have.

HONIG: This is going to be a big problem, I think, for the prosecution, because we've had Jeffrey Clark ask for -- sorry, John Eastman ask for a speedy trial, and now Sidney Powell as well. That's going to split this into two pieces. We're going to have an early trial which is going to be in October of 2023, and then a later trial. And there's no way to stop that if you're the prosecution, because under Georgia law, if a person invokes their speedy trial right as a defendant, you get your speedy trial, in this case it has to start by November.

And what that means is that all the other people who go second, I would be happy to be second if I was in their shoes. You sit back, you watch, you take notes, you see all the government's witnesses take the stand, see how they're cross-examined. So there's an enormous tactical advantage to going second here. But because of the way the speedy trial rights work, there's no way for the prosecution to stop that.

I should say, it's Chesebro who asked for his early --

SIDNER: That's right, that's right.

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: A lot of different lawyers in this case. A lot of defendants, a lot of lawyers, a lot of different -- a lot of indictments. A lot of things, a lot of potential trial dates.

SIDNER: A lot going on.

MATTINGLY: It's going to be a lot to cover. We appreciate you guys helping us walk through it. Astead, we see you, even if Sara doesn't. I still see you.

SIDNER: OK, see, under the bus, under the bus every time.

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MATTINGLY: Thanks, guys, we appreciate it.

Also this morning, President Biden offering condolences to the families of three Marines killed in an air crash during military exercises in Australia. The latest on the investigation. That's coming up.

SIDNER: And the sheriff in Jacksonville, Florida, calling the gunman who opened fire in a Dollar General Store a, quote, "madman who hated black people." We'll have a live update on the investigation from that sheriff, coming up next.

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TRACIE DAVIS, (D) FLORIDA STATE SENATE: From years ago to listening to people say, you know, as a black people, we've come a long way, after what happened yesterday, I question that and say, have we really? (END VIDEO CLIP)

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SABRINA ROZIER, FAMILY MEMBER OF JACKSONVILLE SHOOTING VICTIM: It's hurtful because I thought racism was behind us, but evidently it's not, and that's what they're calling this act, racism, and I just feel like he was a coward.

You went in and shot these innocent people for nothing that you didn't even know, and then you took your own life. That's just the cowardly way to go.

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SIDNER: That was a family member of one of the victims of Saturday's deadly shooting of three Black residents at a Dollar General in Jacksonville, Florida.

She described 29-year-old Jerrald Gallion as a fun-loving young father of a four-year-old little girl, a little girl who still did not know a gunman killed her father as of last night because her family just hasn't been able to find the words to tell her about it.

The sheriff in Jacksonville says a madman who hated Black people targeted those victims. The sheriff released video of the moments the gunman approach and entered the store. There's a still shot of that there. We're just showing you a still because it is extremely disturbing to watch, and we know what happened next.

Three people were killed over 11 minutes, two others, another shopper and a store worker; then he killed himself as officers arrived at that scene.

The sheriff says the killer left behind racist messages and that it was clear he was targeting Black people.

Now, the Justice Department is investigating the shooting as a hate crime and an act of racially motivated violent extremism. Joining us now Jacksonville sheriff, T.K. Waters

Sir, thank you so much for coming on. I know that you are extremely busy and I know that you are heartbroken. I wanted to just get an update on where this investigation is.

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Before I do that, do you think this was a hate crime? Because you've read the words of this man who perpetrated this horrible violence.

T.K. WATERS, JACKSONVILLE, FLORIDA SHERIFF: Yes, absolutely. There is no question about it. He hated Blacks, and I think he hated just about everyone that wasn't White. He made that very clear.

SIDNER: You talk about him as a madman, when you say that, a lot of people will jump to this conclusion that he was insane, he didn't know what he was doing. Is that how you see it?

WATERS: No. I don't want to give him that -- I want to make sure people understand that he is completely accountable. He understood what he was doing. Based upon the things that I've read, he understood what he was doing and he understood why he was on it.

SIDNER: Can you tell us where you are in this investigation? Obviously, the suspect is dead, and I think you told us that you heard -- that your deputies heard a gunshot go off and he killed himself. Where does the investigation go from here?

WATERS; So how these things work? We start from that point. Now, we're going backwards. And every day, we're learning more. I just had one of my chiefs come in, and he's getting ready to update ne on some new information.

So we're going backwards, and we're trying to learn everything that happened. You know, try to get more and more as each day passes. We're trying to learn everything that happened that led up to that incident.

Now, we gave a pretty detailed timeline yesterday, but I just found out some more information, so we're continuing to learn. We are going as far back as we can to get to -- I mean, we want to find out when this all started.

SIDNER: Now, Sheriff, you know, when you said "I just find out new information" that the reporter in me has to ask you if you can share any of that with us.

WATERS: I can't share it yet because I'm waiting for my follow up deck from a homicide team and one of my chiefs, and so when I get that information, we'll get that out.

SIDNER: Okay, Sheriff, thank you so much for that.

Let me now ask you about when you're looking back, when you're doing this and going back, is there any indication that there were others that perhaps knew this was going to happen or perhaps helped him? Whether it be, you know, obtaining the guns, which I understand were purchased legally, or had some inkling of who he was and what he was about to do?

Was there any one do you think that may also be charged in this case?

WATERS: You know, we don't know. That's part of the investigative process. We're still looking into that. Our partners at the FBI, they are also looking at some things to see if things branched out.

But as we can see, right now, there was no one else involved. He actually claimed to be a lone actor in this himself. But we haven't found anything to indicate that yet. SIDNER: He first ended up at a Historically Black University, the

Edward Waters University. Was there anything that you found that showed he intended to actually attack that university before going to this store?

WATERS: No, there was not. So I'll tell you this much. We learned this yesterday. He had the opportunity to do so and he did not.

For some reason, he was focused on that Dollar General. He left that parking lot. There were two people very, very, very, very close proximity to him that he did not do anything to and we're thankful for that.

He left there and went directly to Dollar General and started this killing.

SIDNER: Thank you, sir. There are lots of places, lots of states that are either looking at red flag laws or have red flag laws. Was there anything that could have been done to prevent this legally speaking?

WATERS: It is very difficult. You know the -- it is very difficult. The process in allowing people, and I'll say this, this is not my intent to be political at all.

The object is not necessarily the issue, it is a tool. What the problem is, is you can't read people's minds. So we try to go back as far as we can to figure out what happened, where he went off the tracks.

I know there was a Baker Act when he was 15 years old. He was sent for a 72-hour evaluation. That 72-hour evaluation, they released him from that point, but that does not mean he was held as a mental patient. So that's probably why that did not show up when our gun dealer ran his information as they were supposed to have done, and they did, it just didn't come up.

SIDNER: Do you think that should change that if someone is picked up on a 72-hour hold for a mental disturbance that that should be put into a record?

WATERS: Well, you are also dealing with the fact that he is a juvenile. There are so many protections in place for juveniles from medical health, and that's a medical issue, that's far beyond the police and the scope of the police. I think that there are different ways to try to address that and it is going to take more than just law enforcement.

It's going to take government agencies, it's going to take communities. It's going to take the medical community, the psychiatric community to be involved and working on that problem, on that issue.

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SIDNER: Can I lastly ask you, how is the community doing after going through this and particularly the Black community who was targeted for no reason at all, except for this person, apparently had hate in his heart?

WATERS: I can tell you that I think that the Black community is hurt, but I think they are strong resilient. I think they are -- I think we banded together very well in this city.

Jacksonville, this is not representative of Jacksonville, and as a matter of fact, this person did not live in Jacksonville. He came from a neighboring county to wreak havoc in our community.

Jacksonville is a strong community. Jacksonville is a very tough community, and there are pockets of issues, there are. There is no doubt about that.

But that's everywhere, all right. I believe this country is a great place and I believe the city is a great place. I think our community is strong, resilient, and I think they've banded together and I think we're going to get through this and I think we're going to be stronger because of it.

SIDNER: Sheriff T.K. Waters, thank you so much for your very honest discussion on what is a very difficult time there in Jacksonville. I appreciate you.

WATERS: Thank you very much.

MATTINGLY: Well, so in Florida, Anna Maria Island, it looks beautiful right now, but it is bracing for Tropical Storm Idalia, which is expected to intensify into a dangerous hurricane by the time it hits Florida's coast.

How the White House is responding. That's next.

SIDNER: Experts are already warning travelers to brace for a hectic Labor Day weekend.

Hey, Phil, maybe we should just stay home. You know what I mean?

Tips on how to avoid the chaos. That's next.

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