Return to Transcripts main page

CNN This Morning

Justin Elliott is Interviewed about a Koch Donor Event; William Taylor is Interviewed about the Ukraine War; Behind-the-Scenes Details of Freed Americans from Iran. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired September 22, 2023 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:33:16]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Well, this morning, Rudy Giuliani is falling deeper and deeper into legal debt after failing to pay more than $132,000 in sanctions to two Georgia election workers. A judge ordered Giuliani to pay the money to Ruby Freeman and her daughter Shaye Moss to offset some of their attorney's fees from their defamation suit against Giuliani. Now interest is accruing as he continues to not pay.

That's only a small chunk of Giuliani's financial burden as he faces fallout from his work for former President Trump. He will also face more damages in the same case from a jury in December. And just days ago he was hit with a new lawsuit from his former attorney for more than $1 million in unpaid legal fees.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: And just this morning, ProPublica is out with more new reporting on Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. According to ProPublica, Justice Thomas secretly attended at least two donor events for the Koch Network over the years. That's the powerful conservative political organization supported by the billionaire Koch brothers. As ProPublica points out, quote, "that puts Thomas in the extraordinary position of having served as a fundraising draw for a network that has brought cases before the Supreme Court, including one of the most closely watched of the upcoming term."

MATTINGLY: Justice Thomas did not respond to ProPublica's questions for the story, but a spokesperson for the Koch Network told ProPublica, "The idea that attending a couple events to promote a book or give dinner remarks, as all the justices do, could somehow be undue influence just doesn't hold water."

Joining us now, one of the reporters who broke this story for ProPublica, Justin Elliott.

We appreciate your time. You guys have done a ton of reporting on this throughout the course of the last several months.

On this specifically, I think what's striking to me, and you factor in the response from the Koch Network spokesperson, is that -- these donors aren't paying to not have dinner with Clarence Thomas. [06:35:06]

Like, my assumption is the donors know what they're getting when they put this money, which is why the dinner is set up. Is that kind of your sense of things?

JUSTIN ELLIOTT, REPORTER, PROPUBLICA: Yes. So, you know, to give you an example where the Koch Network has these annual summits for donors. You have to give at least $100,000 to even get an invite. Some people give millions out in Palm Springs every winter. And Justice Thomas went to one of these summits to have dinner with the donors. And we talked to a lot of Koch Network staffers who said this was seen as basically giving a perk to these high-dollar donors.

And which, you know, judges we spoke to, judicial ethics experts, said this is just totally beyond the pale in terms of what a judge should be doing. Judges aren't supposed to be involved in either politics or fundraising. And this is essentially both.

SIDNER: It's interesting because you've brought some of this to the forefront where Justice Thomas has had to now redo and sort of reveal some of the things that he has done, some of the things and gifts that he has gotten in the past. But you -- your reporter also talks about this 2018 flight to Palm Springs. It's an apparent violation of federal law. Explain that.

ELLIOTT: Yes, so, you know, one of the themes of the Supreme Court is there's actually ironically very few ethics rules. But one of - basically the one rule there is, is, if you get expensive gifts, like private jet flights, you have to disclose them every year on this annual form. And another theme with Justice Thomas is - and these stories is secrecy. So this -- we found that he was flown on this private jet out to Palm Springs for this Koch donor event. It's actually still not clear who paid for that. The Koch's actually said they didn't pay for it. Justice Thomas didn't - didn't respond to us. But we would know who paid for it if the justice had put it on his annual disclosure form, as the law requires, as, you know, many ethics lawyers have told us.

So, you know, as you mentioned, we reached out to the Supreme Court and Justice Thomas for comment. They didn't respond. Sometimes they respond after the stories come out. So, we'll see. Still a lot of unanswered questions there.

MATTINGLY: Sometimes they respond after the stories come out. They respond typically. Why they don't do it on the front end, I've never quite gotten my head around.

The connection between what the Koch Brothers, their network, and their allies care about at the Supreme Court, I think that's, you know, a really important part of that, especially given the case that's coming up, which is a huge issue for not just the Coke Network but I think conservatives in general. Lay that out.

ELLIOTT: Yes, one thing a lot of people don't understand about the Kochs, I mean their -- their election spending is well-known, but they actually also employ lawyers and fund lawsuits in the Supreme Court.

There's a very big case coming up in this upcoming term in the fall or next spring that has to do with the government's power to issue regulations and things like the environment, labor standards. Something that the Koch Network has been, you know, long opposed. And so this case coming up, it's called Loper Bright. The Koch Network brought it to the Supreme Court. And, you know, the people we spoke to for this story said, Justice Thomas' undisclosed relationship with the Koch Network, you know, raises questions about whether he can be impartial in a case that the Koch Network has brought at the court. So, that's another thing that, you know, we'll be watching.

SIDNER: You report a lot on sort of the moneys given to him by Harlan Crow or given, you know, buying the house for his mother, that she can live in for the rest of her life rent free. I - and then you - and now you have this information. Is this just a major sort of breach and bungling of the norms that we expect from particularly the Supreme Court justices?

ELLIOTT: Yes, you know, another aspect of this story is that Harlan Crow, this Texas wealthy political donor, who takes Justice Thomas on vacations around the country and around the world, has taken him to these retreats in California where he - where Justice Thomas actually developed this relationship with the Koch brothers at this retreat called the Bohemian Grove.

And, yes, I mean, I think what we've been told is that it's just not a common or acceptable thing for judges or justices to be accepting this kind of large gifts (ph) year after year, private jet flights, free vacations, you know, the undisclosed real estate transaction you mentioned. And - and this, you know, what we found in this story is just even more examples of that from - from Harlan Crow.

SIDNER: No matter what, often the appearance of influence is just as problematic as actually the influence itself. So, thank you so much for joining us. Really good reporting.

ELLIOTT: Thanks.

MATTINGLY: Well, last-minute concessions stalling. The new CNN reporting on the hurdles the U.S. government had to jump to bring five Americans home from Iran. We have a great behind the scenes story.

SIDNER: And potential tropical cyclone 16 is strengthening off the southeast coast of the United States. The system is now producing tropical storm force winds. The National Hurricane Center says those winds are expected to reach the coast of North Carolina this morning.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:43:32]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY, UKRAINE: But American investment in Ukrainian security and global protection of freedom is working one hundred percent. Every cent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has wrapped up his visit to Washington, where he met with President Biden, lawmakers, Pentagon officials, seeking to bolster U.S. support for Ukraine. Now, Zelenskyy received a warm welcome from President Biden at the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No nation can be truly secure in a world if in fact we don't' stand up and defend the freedom of Ukraine from the face of this Russian brutality and aggression.

PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINE: And I will look forward, Mr. President, to our discussion for the benefit of our nations and the world. When it comes to weapons, we will discuss everything with a special emphasis on air defense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: All right, you hear that, but there are some Republican lawmakers, as you know, who were not convinced about the necessity of spending more on the Ukraine war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): What I - what the meeting revealed to me is, is that in the words of the - of President Zelenskyy, the conflict is a total stalemate. That's what he said, totally frozen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Joining us now is former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, William Taylor. He is the vice president of the Russia and Europe Center at the U.S. Institute of Peace.

Thank you, sir, so much for being here.

When you see this conflict among, you know, the U.S. - the congressmen and congresswomen, and you have Zelenskyy there saying, I cannot get this done without your help, what, in the end, happens here?

[06:45:12]

What do you see happening to Ukraine? Will this just be a war that just - almost a forever war at this point in this kind of stalemate?

WILLIAM TAYLOR, VP FOR RUSSIA AND EUROPE CENTER, U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: Sara, I don't think so. I think that, number one, there's actually some progress on the ground. There's some progress in the southern part of Ukraine where the Ukrainian forces are slowly grindingly, bloodily, very difficult fighting, are moving into and pushing the Russian back. That's their goal. And there's some indication that that's having some success. In the last couple days we're seeing reports of that. Number one.

Number two, I expect, in the end, this assistance package, like all the previous assistance packages, will be approved by Congress. If you put this to a vote in both houses, you're going to get bipartisan support, good majorities. And the question is how to get it to a vote. But - but smarter people than I will - will get that - get that done. When they actually vote, it will pass.

MATTINGLY: You make a great point in the sense of, if it could get to the House floor, the requisite number of votes are there, period, end of story. In the United States Senate, the Senate majority leader there, Chuck Schumer, is certainly there. There is no bigger supporter or more, I think, bigger defender than Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell. And I think that's why the dynamic is so interesting right now because the tone felt different yesterday than when I was in Washington for -- when President Zelenskyy came for his first visit outside of Ukraine at the end of last year, for the video remarks to the joint session of Congress a month after the war. That total shift, what do you think is behind that?

TAYLOR: So, Phil, it's been a long time. The Ukrainians have been fighting for 19 months. The United States has been supporting for 19 months. That's a long time to maintain that kind of focus and intensity.

Ukrainians have no choice. They have no choice but to defend themselves. They are under attack every day. Every day. And it's up to us to maintain our support. And so I think that - that long-term support, I was just in Ukraine last week and it's the same thing, it's a grim determination.

When I was there a year ago, it was - it was enthusiastic because the counteroffensive was beginning so well. Now the counteroffensive is going, but it's not as dramatic. And so the grim determination is something we have to support.

SIDNER: May I ask you sort of what you think the world is doing as they look at this sort of fight in the United States over this and as this war has ground on what the message is. You have McCarthy sort of not wanting to be seen with him on camera, and then suddenly you see this picture of them behind the scenes standing next to each other. He did not let Zelenskyy speak to Congress. What is the rest of the world doing, and how much of a damage could this cause in seeing that there is infighting in the United States over whether to help fund this war?

TAYLOR: Well, Sara, you're exactly right. In the - in the - in the closed meetings there apparently was - was support, even from - from Mr. McCarthy. Mr. McCaul, the committee chair, Foreign Relations Committee chair, said that Mr. McCarthy was strong support on doing more. Actually, these ATACMS, these long-range missiles, they were pushing the administration to provide those. So, there is that.

But you're right, in public there is this debate. This is not a surprise. People observing the U.S. government and the U.S. machinations, political machinations, they under - people around the world, in particular in Ukraine, they know what's going on here. And, again, they - they know they can't win this war in the immediate sense without the United States leading this coalition, leading the alliance. So, they're counting on this kind of support coming through.

MATTINGLY: Ambassador William Taylor, in Ukraine last week, we appreciate your thoughts, sir. Thank you.

TAYLOR: Thank you, Phil.

SIDNER: Thank you so much, sir.

We're now getting an inside look into the New York City daycare where this horrible story, infants and toddlers, where exposed to fentanyl. What investigators found under a secret trap door there.

MATTINGLY: And we'll take you live to the border where thousands of migrants are crossing into Texas from Mexico.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There's been a group of about 50 or so migrants who have been waiting for hours. And they've now just started crossing through the concertina wire, literally dragging each other underneath it, and turning themselves into authorities.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:52:58]

MATTINGLY: That's a wonderful look at the sun coming up, Clearwater, Florida. I don't have as clever a way of doing it as Sara Sidner did, but she's a Florida Gator, so we'll note that.

SIDNER: Exactly. Put that out there. Thank you for that.

We are now learning new incredibly interesting behind the scene details about the crucial final days and really hours before the five imprisoned Americans in Iran were brought back home to the United States. Senior State Department officials, under condition of anonymity, say Tehran threw up road blocks, tried to force the U.S. to make last-minute concessions and even stalled the release moments before the five were set to board the plane that the world watched coming into Qatar.

CNN State Department reporter Jenny Hansler is joining us now.

You wrote this really interesting piece where you take us through sort of a maze of things that happened. Give us some sense of what actually transpired to get those Americans back home.

JENNIFER HANSLER, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT REPORTER: Well, Sara, it was really fascinating because we learned that the extent to which the Iranians really tried to make life difficult for the U.S. negotiators, for those Qatari interlocutors, even though they had agreed to this deal to bring these Americans home. So, Roger Carstens, who's the envoy for hostage affairs, Abram Paley, who's the Iran envoy, they arrived in Doha on Saturday afternoon to facilitate these last-minute logistical details with Qatari and Swiss officials. But they also had to deal with what one official described as a new demand from Iran every hour to either stall the process or make life difficult for the sake of making life difficult. So, they weren't necessarily concerned that the deal wouldn't go through, they were confident that Iran would not walk away from especially those funds that had been transferred to Qatar. But there were a lot of just roadblocks.

The Iranians even threatened to not release the five Americans that they had agreed to release. They said they would not release, you know, all five. They'd do less than that. And, you know, the U.S. had to continue to tell them, we agreed to this deal, that's what you're going to get.

And some -- some of these were even kind of bureaucratic delays. At one point when the funds were transferred to Qatar on Monday, the Iranians couldn't find the head of the central bank to sign off on a letter to fully start transferring the prisoners to the airport.

[06:55:04]

And even when they got to that airport, I found this fascinating -

MATTINGLY: This is the best detail.

HANSLER: The Iranians tried to make all of the released Americans and the officials who were flying to Doha with them eat lunch there at the Tehran airport before they could take off. And the Qataris, you know, in this, what was described as a good diplomatic maneuver, said, we will be very offended if you don't eat our food on our plane, so we need to go take off. And that finally, you know, led to them being wheels up and on the way home.

SIDNER: Wow.

MATTINGLY: It's a great story. And you're - you've broken so much news on hostage negotiations and Americans that have come home during this administration.

Thanks so much for coming on.

HANSLER: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: The story's on cnn.com. you have to read it. The behind- the-scenes details are just really, really rich and underscore why so many people were so anxious quietly over the course of this trip.

HANSLER: Yes. Absolutely.

MATTINGLY: Thanks, Jen.

HANSLER: Thank you. MATTINGLY: Well, ahead, what we're learning about the moment a bus

carrying 40 students to band camp tumbled down a 50-food ravine in New York. We're live near the scene.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)