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Tom Malinowski is Interviewed about Bob Menendez; Seven Candidates Qualify for Second Debate; Trump Skipping Debate; Questions over Ethics at Supreme Court. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired September 26, 2023 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:00]

TOM MALINOWSKI (D), FORMER NEW JERSEY CONGRESSMAN: And we know that information is going to be used to pressure those people, to threaten those people. It's just not something that any of us in New Jersey feel is acceptable for an elected official representing us.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Do you think politically if Menendez stays in the race, runs for re-election, he endangers the Democratic hold on that seat in a blue state?

MALINOWSKI: I don't think he can win the nomination. I don't think he can win the Democratic nomination. And look, I -- this is a human drama. I think he's in shock right now. He may also feel that he needs to stay in the seat a bit longer to raise money for his legal defense fund. But I think - I don't think he will be our senator come 2025. And so the question is how we get there. And it's important that Democrats be united about this.

MATTINGLY: Are you going to get in the race?

MALINOWSKI: I haven't made any decisions yet. We have a strong candidate already announced in the race, Congressman Andy Kim. I think our focus right now is calling on Senator Menendez to do the right thing and then finding a way to unify our party around an alternative.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Your tweet was notable, not directly about Menendez, but about something you tried to do, Congressman, and that is to put provisions that took on Egypt in several House passed defense bills that were stripped from the legislation. To be clear, you don't know why they were stripped or who supported that. But you did tweet, quote, "the idea that the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee may then have been in a corrupt relationship with Egypt is horrifying."

We reached out yesterday to Menendez's office for any response to that. They didn't get back to us.

Do you believe that is a matter Congress should investigate further?

MALINOWSKI: I think we need to -- I think Congress needs to look at how Egypt -- how this brutal, corrupt dictatorship operates in the United States. How it's trying to corrupt our political system. And I've urged my former colleagues in the House and Senate for the moment to freeze aid to Egypt until we figure out exactly what was going on here. I don't think we get much from our relationship with this dictatorship. I think it diminishes the United States to say that we need brutal dictators like the leader of Egypt. And I hope this is an opportunity to step back and look at that relationship.

MATTINGLY: All right, former State Department official, former congressman, Tom Malinowski. Appreciate you time, sir. Thank you.

MALINOWSKI: Thank you.

HARLOW: So, new overnight, the lineup for the second Republican presidential debate has been announced. We'll tell you who qualified and who didn't this time around.

MATTINGLY: Plus, new allegations that former Trump Chief of Staff Mark Meadows burned documents in the White House. So much so that his wife complained about the dry cleaning bill. Those details ahead.

Stay with us.

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[06:36:28]

HARLOW: New overnight, the Republican National Committee announcing the lineup for the debate tomorrow night in California. Seven candidates qualified. One fewer than last time. On the stage you will see Chris Christie, Mike Pence, Nikki Haley, Governor Ron DeSantis, Vivek Ramaswamy, Senator Tim Scott and Governor Doug Burgum. Asa Hutchinson, who appeared in the first debate, did not meet all of the RNC's criteria this time.

Former President Trump won't be there. He will, instead, travel to Detroit to deliver a speech and talk to union workers.

CNN national politics reporter Eva McKend following all of it.

He will be all across the country except on the debate stage in California.

EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER: Yes, good morning to you, Poppy and Phil.

It's because he's already positioning himself as a general election candidate. By skipping California, going to Detroit, he's essentially telling voters his only focus is President Biden. But there's still a recognition he has to compete in the early states. He's far out ahead in every poll, but his margin not as wide in state level polls.

The electorates are small in these states, like New Hampshire and Iowa. We know that those voters appreciate an aggressive ground game. And hearing from these candidates over and over again that they really want the job. So, after that Detroit speech Wednesday, he'll be in Iowa over the weekend and he made a stop in South Carolina just yesterday. MATTINGLY: Eva, I do have a question. You know, the former president

was in South Carolina. He made a stop at a gun store yesterday. His spokesman tweeted out that he purchased a gun, which would be problematic given he's been indicted for multiple in the form of 90 plus felony charges. What actually happened here?

MCKEND: Yes, so this was a bit of a mess, Phil, and got a lot of attention, as many suspect it would. The spokesperson tweeted out this video showing Trump at a gun shop -- I think we can see the video here -- in South Carolina, declaring he bought a Glock pistol. It turns out he actually did not. He's, as you mentioned, under indictment, facing criminal charges. The spokesperson deleted that post, clarified he did not purchase or take possession of the firearm. He only indicated he wanted one. Federal law, of course, prohibits the sale of guns to people under felony indictments. So, Trump did not walk away from the gun store with a gun after all, Phil.

HARLOW: Thank you for clearing that up. Got a lot of attention for sure yesterday.

Eva, thanks.

MATTINGLY: Now, it's worth noting, Trump, while preparing for his remarks tomorrow in Michigan, has also squeezed in plenty of time this week to lash out against Democrats, the media and some of his own political appointees. In a series of posts, these are only some of them, I want to make that very clear, Trump cried treason, called for a government shutdown and even suggested his former Joint Chiefs of Staff chair should be executed. His attack on outgoing chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Mark Milley, comes days after a new report of Milley's distrust of Trump's leadership. He said Milley's dealings with China at the end of Trump's presidency, where were allowed by his administration, should be, quote, "punishable by death." He also suggested NBC's parent company, Comcast, should be investigated for treason for their political coverage. He called on Republicans to push back on Democratic Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro's automatic voter registration policy, and in the same post referred to his former U.N. ambassador, and current campaign rival, Nikki Haley as bird brain.

HARLOW: He called on Republicans to shut down the government if they don't get everything they want in these negotiations. And he went after President Biden ahead of his trip to Michigan, accusing him of killing the UAW and calling on the union to endorse him.

[06:40:08]

So, he did a lot.

With us to discuss, Jessica Washington, senior reporter at "The Root," Michelle Price, "Associated Press" national political reporter, John Avlon, CNN senior political analyst and anchor.

Good morning, everyone.

JOHN AVLON, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Good morning. HARLOW: John.

AVLON: I'm delighted you just did that run-through of Donald Trump because there's a tendency right now to ignore to the extent of normalizing his most outrageous claims. Particularly calling for the execution of his former Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Mark Milley. That's something that is so across anything resembling a moral line in politics. And the fact that it was initially greeted with silence indicates the degree to which we're getting numb to his outburst and his grievances. And the real test for me in the next - coming debate is whether any Republican has the stones to call that out in particular.

HARLOW: Other than Chris Christie.

AVLON: Other than Chris Christie, right, who - who absolutely will. Because, look, if that's not unacceptable, what is? If you're a Republican, you allegedly stand for law and order and strong national security. The former president, the frontrunner, is calling for the execution of a former general, can't call that out, you're not qualified to be president.

HARLOW: By the way, in the same week that Milley ends 40-plus years of service to this country, you know.

AVLON: Correct. Yes.

MATTINGLY: Michelle, I think the question I have -- one, all right, maybe your excuse is you don't -- you're not on Truth Social. Not a lot of people are. So maybe you missed all of them. That would be fair. I don't have an account yet. John helps me out on that.

But I think to John's point, it's the calibration in terms of response, not just for Republican candidates but rite large. As you go into an election where the front-runner in the Republican Party literally tried to overturn the election in 2020, and people seem to be able to brush by that and most Republican primary candidates and challengers are not challenging him on that, and you run through that list of things that are just positively bonkers and everybody just kind of wonders by. Why?

MICHELLE PRICE, NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER, "ASSOCIATED PRESS": I mean that has been the question since Donald Trump came down the escalator. And bonkers I mean among the other things, he claimed he could design a better fighter jet than the military. You know, that -- that list ranged from, you know, violent to just bizarre.

But, you know, you're right, we are not seeing anybody in that field, besides Chris Christie, challenge him on these things. And that - that seems to be the question, is they're all trying to posit themselves as a viable alternative, are they actually running against him or are they just running in the background?

HARLOW: Tomorrow -- go ahead.

JESSICA WASHINGTON, SENIOR REPORTER, "THE ROOT": I - no, I was going to say, I do think it - I mean they don't want to alienate this base. They're terrified of that. I think we, in the media, also have a complicated push and pull because I think there was a lot of fear that we gave Trump too much airtime, that we spent too much time talking about him. And so I think there's also that fear in the media and then also the candidates might have some of those same concerns. And so now we're saying, OK, we have to address these awful, terrible things that he said, but also, how do we not then just constantly get his message in front of people who maybe aren't on Truth Social. And so I think that could feel complicated even though I think we do have to be calling these things out directly.

HARLOW: Cassidy Hutchinson, who was such a key witness, star witness, in the January 6th hearings, has this new book out. Jake Tapper talked to her. We're going to see that a little bit later in the program. But one thing we've learned from her book is that she reports that President Trump told his then chief of staff, Mark Meadows, quote, "I don't want people to know we lost, Mark. This is embarrassing. Figure it out." The Meadows' camp is pushing back hard on just the whole book, but that is significant, John. To what end?

AVLON: It's usually significant because it indicates that in real time Donald Trump knew he was lost and was perpetrating a lie on the American people and his supporters that led on an attack on our Capitol. It goes to state of mind. So, that testimony is incredibly significant.

MATTINGLY: Do you think, though, that - I mean, again, we talk about the Truths tweets, whatever we call them.

AVLON: That's (INAUDIBLE).

MATTINGLY: This is another example. You know, the -- the timeline that Cassidy Hutchinson laid out both in her testimony to the January 6th committee but also in this book here -- can't wait to see Jake's interview with her later today on this.

AVLON: Yes.

MATTINGLY: It underscores the dynamic of what this administration actually was at the end. And I - I just -- does it puncture any of the kind of narrative or breakthrough where Trump stands?

WASHINGTON: Yes, I think it's, if true, is damning because his whole point, his whole legal argument is, I believed that I won the election and so I was speaking out. I was saying the truth as I understand it. And so then to have someone say, OK, actually, he knew that he had lost this election and he continued to perpetuate a lie, that makes this whole legal argument fall apart and this whole idea that there was this, you know, plan and his -- he was getting advice and, you know, from his counsel. That all completely falls apart if this is true.

HARLOW: Tomorrow night, what - I mean Chris Christie has seen some improvement in polling. There's this sort of four-way tie under Trump in the state of New Hampshire. Talk to us about what tomorrow night needs to look like for an actual breakout for one of these folks. Nikki Haley got the big bounce after the last one.

[06:45:01]

What about tomorrow?

PRICE: Yes, I mean, she'll be looking to recreate that tomorrow night.

HARLOW: Sure.

PRICE: Tim Scott, the pressure is on, because I think a lot of people thought in that first debate it would be a Tim Scott moment.

HARLOW: And it wasn't.

PRICE: And he was so quiet that --

HARLOW: Yes.

PRICE: I mean I can't remember a Tim Scott line from the first debate.

You know, Doug Burgum will be there. I don't know that we're expecting necessarily a Doug Burgum breakout.

Vivek Ramaswamy was very visible in the - in the first debate and is expected to be just as dominant.

But Ron DeSantis, the pressure is really on him because, you know, he was - he did - he did fine in the first debate but he was just - he was kind of on stage, didn't have any big breakout moment. His campaign said that that was kind of just what they needed him to hold - hold his ground. But he -- he needs to have a splash or some kind of --

HARLOW: But he didn't hold ground in key states when you look at the polling given how far he's fallen.

PRICE: Right.

AVLON: To a shocking extent.

HARLOW: Yes.

AVLON: I mean DeSantis is deflating in all our - in our polls, NBC polls, you see his numbers, particularly among moderates, are being cut, you know, by three quarters. And - and that's not sustainable. So, he's got to have a breakout debate. I think Haley's opportunity is to really solidify her status as the most electable alternative to Donald Trump. Our - you know, CNN's poll showing that she's the only one in the pack who decisively beats Joe Biden. And that's what donors will be looking for. Can she really make herself - the case that she's the alternative? And if DeSantis doesn't turn it around and really claim poll position, I think he might be toast.

MATTINGLY: The pitch that I've heard donors have been making to -- campaigns have been making to donors over the course of the last couple weeks is, don't worry about the first debate. This is the debate that's the inflection point. It comes in the wake of maybe some softness of Iowa for Trump, some concern there. Obviously the abortion comments as well. Not that policy is the center point of his campaign or - or the Republican primary. To continue our 700-part debate between you and me on whether or not this primary is already over, what has to happen to make -- to continue to -- for you to perpetuate this idea that Donald Trump will not be the Republican nominee?

AVLON: People start voting, Phil. That would be -- my criteria for it, that people start voting. And - and, obviously, I think --

HARLOW: That means this is going to be a long fight, guys.

AVLON: Yes, that - look - look, until people vote in Iowa -

MATTINGLY: Aren't you excited?

HARLOW: No (ph).

MATTINGLY: Weeks. Weeks.

AVLON: Weeks.

MATTINGLY: Me and Avlon.

AVLON: Phil and I just wrestling into the morning on this stuff.

HARLOW: Can't wait.

AVLON: Look, it - it -- you know, Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, these are not states that always are typical in their outcomes. And, you know, Chris Christie is betting it all on New Hampshire. Iowa is, you know, it's own peculiar and wonderful snapshot of the American people.

But there's a real move on the grass stops in Iowa to look for an alternative to Donald Trump. The question is who folks coalesce around as the alternative. And that's why whoever is seen as the most electable alternative could really reshape the race. If Trump loses ground in some of those first couple of primaries, things could fall apart quickly. The problem is people have been cowed into a sense of inevitability out of fear of the base that's causing people to stay on the sidelines. And that's why I think I disagree with you that I think treating this as inevitable perpetuates that cycle and psychology.

HARLOW: You guys haven't even told us what the bet is over. Like, who gets what.

AVLON: Oh, great question.

HARLOW: That's for the next one.

Michelle Price, John Avlon, Jessica Washington, thank you very much.

AVLON: Oh, we'll tell - the big reveal next time.

MATTINGLY: A tease right there. AVLON: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Thanks, guys, appreciate it.

Well, the Supreme Court is back on the bench today for the start of a new term. The justices face historically low approval ratings over a flurry of ethics issues. We're going to dig in coming up next.

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[06:52:15]

HARLOW: So, today, the Supreme Court returns for its first private meeting of the justices for the new term. It comes after multiple controversies and huge ethics questions. Most notably the revelations about Justice Clarence Thomas accepting and failing to disclose lavish gifts and vacations from a wealthy Republican donor. Approval ratings for the court have now reached record lows. A recent Gallup poll shows, look at that, just 40 percent of Americans approve of job being done by the highest court in the land.

With us now, CNN Supreme Court reporter Ariane de Vogue.

Ariane, good morning to you.

ARIANE DE VOGUE, CNN SUPREME COURT REPORTER: Good morning.

HARLOW: Some of these justices really want more ethics constraints, more rules, more transparency. Is that going to happen this term?

DE VOGUE: Well, it's interesting. As you said, this is the first time they're meeting behind closed doors since this summer recess. And there have just been this array of stories over the past month, really drawing attention to the fact that there is no code of conduct, no ethics rules that apply directly to the justices themselves. Nothing that's binding.

And the court, over the summer, in various appearances in the spring and summer, they have talked about it a little bit. We heard Chief Justice John Roberts last spring, and he said he wanted to assure the public that they're taking this seriously. We heard from Justice Brett Kavanaugh over the summer who said he hoped the court would take concrete measures, whatever that is.

But Justice Elena Kagan, the liberal, Poppy, on the court, she went further than anybody else last week. And she said, look, maybe we can adapt the code of conduct that is in effect for lower court justices for the Supreme Court.

Take a listen to what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELENA KAGAN, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: I think it would be a good thing for the court to do that. There are complicated issues here. There are, you know, totally good

faith disagreements or concerns, if you will. There are some things to be worked out. You know, I hope we can get them worked out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DE VOGUE: And, of course, she is saying all of this as the new term officially begins next week.

HARLOW: There is a really important case that's going to be heard this term and it's about something called chevron deference, which I will not bore the American people with, but it's incredibly significant in terms of the agency of, you know, federal agencies, for example. There is an -- a question now because of this ProPublica reporting that Justice Thomas attended a Koch brothers event - Koch Network donor event and the Kochs are part of sort of the legal backing of this case. Is that going to complicate things?

DE VOGUE: Well, right. This is one of the biggest cases of the term. There has been this long, conservative movement or effort to scale back on the power of federal agencies.

[06:55:05]

That would affect small businesses, climate, public, health. And now finally they have this big case, as you said, before the court asking the justices once again to scale back on precedent, overturn precedent. And now because of that news reporting with the Koch Network, Democrats are saying to Thomas, look, you need to recuse from this case. So once again, these ethics controversies are really overshadowing the work of the court, Poppy.

HARLOW: Yes. And he would be, obviously, a critical vote on that case.

DE VOGUE: Yes.

HARLOW: Thank you, Ariane, very much.

DE VOGUE: Yes.

HARLOW: We'll see you soon.

DE VOGUE: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: President Biden is heading to Michigan today as the auto strike enters day 12. CNN is live at the picket lines.

HARLOW: Also, Ukraine claiming it killed the commander of Russia's Black Sea fleet. If true, it would be a big blow to the Russian navy. More on that ahead.

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