Return to Transcripts main page

CNN This Morning

Government Shutdown Looming: How We Got Here; White House Making Plans for a Government Shutdown; House Holds Biden Impeachment Inquiry Hearing as Shutdown Nears. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired September 29, 2023 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROLYN MANNO, CNN SPORTS: The best baseball game that he's ever been to. So even though Bryce Harper, Kasie, might not have gotten any sleep last night, I feel like dreams coming true for a fifth grader from New Jersey, very, very sweet. Wearing the jersey everything to the game and then got the helmet to boot.

[06:00:14]

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, well, Harper clearly fits right in with Philly -- the Philly vibe.

But listen, I've got to -- I love these O's, man. It's like it's been a very tough couple -- you know, couple decades, frankly, to be an O's fan. It is just so amazing to watch.

I mean, this is a young team that came up through our farm system. Can't wait to see it in October.

Carolyn, thank you very much for that.

And thanks to all of you for joining us this week. Have a wonderful weekend. I'm Kasie Hunt. CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. Glad you're with us. It is Friday, September 29, and right now the government is open for now, but we are on the brink of a shutdown, with no deal in sight to stop it after a night of failure on Capitol Hill.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: The clock is ticking away, with less than two days left. Here's what happened while you were sleeping.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This vote, the yeas are 191. The nays are 237. The Bill is not passed. Without objection, a motion to consider is laid on the table.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Overnight, the chaos and division among House Republicans was on full display. One of their own spending bills went down in flames after 27 Republican lawmakers voted against it. Just hours from now, Speaker McCarthy trying to hold a last-ditch vote

on his stopgap Bill to keep the government funded temporarily, but it does not look like he even has enough votes in his own party for that. He is struggling with a GOP rebellion, and he is facing the real threat of losing his job this morning.

Here's why a shutdown matters for you. Nearly 4 million federal employees will stop being paid. That includes more than 1 million active-duty troops. Essential workers will keep working without pay while others will be furloughed.

The White House is warning a shutdown could lead to huge travel delays, and training for desperately-needed air traffic controllers will stop.

The IRS will stop processing most tax refunds, and it will be a lot harder for you to get in touch with the agency if you need help with your taxes.

Food Stamps for millions of poor Americans could be in danger, along with housing assistance for the elderly, disabled and other low-income tenants who rely on that federal aid.

There could be serious impact on health and public safety. The FDA could be forced to delay food safety inspections across the country.

And for students, federal loans and financial aid programs will likely be disrupted. A majority of national parks are expected to close if the government shuts down.

In previous shutdowns, D.C. has literally become a mess. Back in 2018 and 2019, we saw trash cans overflowing, garbage scattered across the National Mall right by the U.S. Capitol and Washington's iconic monument as the shutdown dragged on.

We won't be able to enjoy the little things on social media, like the National Park Service's wildly popular Fat Bear Week, which is supposed to start on Wednesday. We are told the bears will keep getting fat. That's a joke. But a lot of serious stuff here.

All right -- Phil.

MATTINGLY: So Poppy, those are the consequences. Fat Bear Week nothing to joke about, by the way. It's very entertaining.

But the consequences are real. So, too, is how we got here. And I think this is important to underscore that this is a very different level of dysfunction than we've seen.

Now, keep in mind Kevin McCarthy, the speaker of the House, has had control of his conference since January, when he was elected speaker after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The honorable Kevin McCarthy of the state of California has received 203.

203.

202.

201.

201.

201.

201.

201.

200.

200.

200.

213.

214.

216. Having received a majority of the votes cast, is duly elected speaker of the House of Representatives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Not one, not two, but 15 votes for McCarthy to secure the votes to become speaker, the longest contest in 164 years.

If you want to understand what's really gotten Capitol Hill, what's really gotten House Republican towards this government shutdown, that's a good place to start.

Now, that ended with this, obviously. The speaker's gavel for Kevin McCarthy, and it underscored that he's willing to grind it out to find an outcome. Something he's tried to do throughout the course of the last nine months.

But this moment and the lead up to this moment is extremely important to understand why we are in the place that we are right now.

First, of course, there was the problem McCarthy had counting the votes just in and of themselves. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Do you think you have the votes to be elected speaker tonight?

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): Yes, I do. Yes.

RAJU: And you'll be able to flip Rosendale and Crane? MCCARTHY: I'll have the votes.

[06:05:08]

RAJU: What are you -- what were their concerns?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How confident are you that you have the votes?

MCCARTHY: Because I count.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: He can count, but he could not count directly. He went on to fail several votes after he said he would have the votes because he could count. So that's one issue. It's a very fluid conference, and pinning them down and having a majority with such a slim conference and such a slim majority is very complicated.

The other -- and this is more important, I think, to a large degree, is what McCarthy had to give hardline conservative Republicans in order to secure their votes.

Here are some of the concessions. And I want to point out a few that really matter.

One member can call for a motion to oust the speaker. Critical point.

A pair of debt ceiling -- a pair of debt ceiling increases with spending cuts. That led to another critical movement here.

Move all 12 individual appropriations bills. That's a huge problem they have right now.

More Freedom Caucus representatives on committees. That has been an important element of this.

Half discretionary spending at 2022 levels. Impossible when you only control one chamber of Congress.

And then of course, the committee on "weaponization" of the federal government.

So why does that actually matter? Well, when you think through how this actually works, this is the threat that's hanging over McCarthy, why he's been so willing to work with Democrats. The debt ceiling increases with spending cuts, that has driven them to this moment. Their inability to move 12 individual appropriations bills, in large part because they can't hit those 2022 levels, that has driven everything.

The debt deal, though, the debt ceiling and how they got here. That was a critical bipartisan moment for Speaker Kevin McCarthy, one in which he worked with Democrats, shook hands with President Biden, and reached a bipartisan agreement.

What did that deal actually say? Two-year spending caps, a bunch of wins, at least in McCarthy's view, for Republicans to raise the debt ceiling.

However, even as McCarthy called it historic, House Republicans, hardline House Republicans, made clear they had serious problems. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): We're concerned that the fundamental commitments that allowed Kevin McCarthy to assume the speakership have been violated as a consequence of the debt limit deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Now, here's what's different. That's obviously Matt Gaetz. He has been a thorn in McCarthy's side, to understate things to some degree, over the course of his nine months as speaker of the House.

There is conservatives raising concerns about bipartisan deals, and then there are hardline conservatives actually doing something on those concerns.

Less than a week later, right before you heard that Gaetz sound right there to our colleague, Manu Raju, this happened after the debt deal. This was the first sign that things were about to get very bad. Inability to pass a procedural motion, failing 206 to 220. Didn't get a ton of attention. It was an embarrassment at the time.

But what it was, was a sign of what was to come, and that included a multitude of failures, over and over and over again. What do I mean?

July 27, failure to move forward on a spending Bill, pulling it entirely. September 14, pulling back a Pentagon spending Bill, usually the lowest-handing fruit with Republicans. September 19, failing on a procedural motion for that spending Bill. September 21, failing again on the procedural motion, not even getting to that Bill.

That underscored the moment that they're in, particularly because this was all happening about a month before they had a spending deadline just to overcome a shutdown threat. And this had nothing to do with addressing that shutdown threat.

So where does that actually leave things right now? And I think this is an important point here.

When you look at the stopgap Bill that McCarthy is trying to put on the floor today, there's a reality. He doesn't have the votes. Going into this day, where their one proposal, not even to keep the government open but just to start negotiations with the Senate, with the White House, they don't have the votes.

Hard "no" votes from at least -- at least six, seven, eight Republicans, likely "no" votes from an additional four.

And why does this connect to those speaker votes back in -- back in January of this year? Well, Matt Gaetz never voted for McCarthy. Matt Rosendale never voted for McCarthy. You had Crane, never voted for McCarthy. Lauren Boebert never voted for McCarthy. This all connects. And you can see this coming back in January.

Now, back in January when this all ended, McCarthy had this to say about the process. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCARTHY: So it's better that we go through this process right now so we can achieve the things we want to achieve for the American public, what our commitment was. So if this takes a little longer, and it doesn't meet your deadline, that's OK. Because it's not -- it's not how you start; it's how you finish. If we finish well, we'll be very successful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: That was the optimistic and not isolated view of what that 15-vote speaker battle would actually mean for this conference going forward.

Flash forward to yesterday, where Republicans are still struggling just to pass their own congress -- stopgap resolution. This is what McCarthy said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Have you actually gamed out a Plan B if this falls apart?

MCCARTHY: Yes. Why would I tell you? What do you mean? In this job, you've got to have A, B, C, D, E, F, and G.

RAJU: So --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What letter are you on now?

MCCARTHY: I haven't spelled my name out completely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Maintaining some humor, underscoring that the "how you finish" that he framed back in January, right now success, which is what he was pointing towards, is a long way away -- Poppy.

[06:10:06]

HARLOW: Phil, thank you for all of that.

There's a lot happening on Capitol Hill. Let's bring in our Lauren Fox with more. Is there a plan B, C, D, E, F, G, this morning or just Plan A, and it looks like it's going to fail?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I don't know. I don't know what letter of the alphabet we are on at this point. But here's what you can expect in the House of Representatives today.

The House Rules Committee is going to convene around 8 a.m. this morning. They're going to try to finish up a rule that would have a short-term spending Bill head to the House floor.

The problem with this short-term spending Bill, as Phil laid out beautifully, is the reality the votes are not there at this moment.

Then around 11:15, 11:30 this morning, the House will move to a procedural vote to put that Bill on the floor. Here's where things get dicey for House Speaker Kevin McCarthy.

This is a procedural vote. Typically, the majority just puts up these votes. They pass, and then there's usually a larger question on the underlying Bill.

In this case and as has been the case over the last several weeks, as hardliners have dug in, those procedural votes are getting harder and harder for Kevin McCarthy.

So expect that, if the votes don't pass on that procedural vote, you can't move to the next step, which is putting the final Bill on the floor.

This is going to be a very big day for House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, because he knows he likely does not have the votes for this short-term Bill. That means he's going to be basically choosing, what does he do next? Does he turn to Democrats? Does he try to work with them, knowing that if he does, that likely means end of his speakership -- Poppy.

HARLOW: And that's the question. Do you believe there will be a vote to vacate him? A motion to vacate the vote?

FOX: Well, certainly, all indications right now from hardliners is they are preparing for that.

One of the challenges for them, though, Poppy, is that who are they going to run to replace Kevin McCarthy? Who actually wants this job of corralling this very divided Republican conference right now?

And one of the key things that you can look to is, there have been some names floated. Republican Whip Tom Emmer. He told our colleagues last night he doesn't want the job. Don't look at him. Don't think that he would take the job. He doesn't want the job.

There are other names floating out there. Mark Green, someone else who says he does not want the job. Kevin Hern, the leader of the Republican Study Committee, he has an influence in this conference, but does he want the job?

I mean, this is a very hard position because, at any moment, any member can turn on you and bring a motion to try and oust you from your job, Poppy.

HARLOW: That's the deal they made. So now we'll see what actually happens. Lauren, thank you for the reporting on the Hill.

Phil, back to you.

MATTINGLY: Thanks, Poppy.

Over to the White House, where preparations are being made for that government shutdown that now seems all but inevitable.

Priscilla Alvarez is there for us this morning.

And Priscilla, I think one of the questions I have right now is the White House has made clear they feel like they have a deal. Right? That this was the deal that they signed for the debt limit. This should not even be a question right now.

But Republicans on Capitol Hill, they've been focused on border security. Senators are trying to figure out some type of border security measure to really thread the needle here. Does the White House feel like they have to respond on the border, which is a real issue?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're responding by noting what exactly a shutdown means for the Border Patrol agents that Republicans are talking about.

And that means that thousands of Border Patrol agents are going to go without pay. They'll continue to carry out their law enforcement duties, but they won't get paid for it.

And the other note that the White House is making is that the cities in the interior, as well as the border, won't get the federal funds that they need to shelter migrants.

So the White House is taking the opportunity here to note the consequences of what a shutdown would look like for the border.

But, of course, Phil, this is a delicate time for the White House when it comes to the U.S.-Mexico border. Border crossings have been going up. It's put this politically-fraught issue at the forefront and caused concern within the White House.

But the opportunity they're seeing now is noting that the GOP proposals could potentially result in eliminating CBP personnel, as well as the fact that, in the event of a shutdown, a lot of these folks are going to have to work without pay.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it's a great point. In terms of the White House itself, having covered a lot of these, it's always interesting to see how staff is trying to figure out how to prepare.

We've seen -- I think my email inbox has shown, from a communications perspective, they're certainly fully engaged on their rapid response how they're trying to frame all this. How are they preparing for what now seems like an inevitability?

FOX: Well, there's certainly a steady drumbeat of press releases, all of which are focused on what would happen in the event of a shutdown. What happens with federal agencies, and what does that mean for Americans? Today, for example, the focus is on -- on small businesses and the

fact that the Small Business Administration would stop processing new business loans.

But then there's also the very real impacts of their not being enough funds for recovery efforts. Those FEMA funds that we have talked about before. The focus right now is simply on any sort of response in the event of a natural disaster, not so much the recovery projects, because they're so slim on funds.

[06:15:02]

Then, too, is the risk of millions of women and children going without food assistance.

And, of course, Phil, millions of federal workers not getting paid. To give you a glimpse of what that looks like inside the White House, Phil, some senior aides are having to learn the jobs of junior aides to get by in the event of a shutdown when those workers are furloughed.

MATTINGLY: Yes. Learning that the junior aides actually work on a lot of stuff, and they use computers and technology, which can be complicated for us older people sometimes.

Priscilla Alvarez, appreciate your reporting, as always -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Security preparations under way as former President Trump's $250 million civil lawsuit. That trial begins here in New York on Monday. We'll talk about key witnesses who could take the stand.

MATTINGLY: And mind-blowing. An unmitigated disaster. That's how one Republican source described yesterday's first impeachment inquiry hearing against President Biden. We'll play for you the Republican witness testimony that clearly undercut the Republicans' own argument.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Look at the nation's capital this morning that is currently open for now. But look at that. We are less than two days away from a government shutdown.

And yet yesterday, House Republicans spent six of those precious hours leading an impeachment inquiry against President Biden. Republicans are attempting to make the case the president profited from his son Hunter's business dealings.

Here's a bit of what their own Republican witnesses said on the stand.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): Are you presenting any firsthand witness account of crimes committed by the president of the United States? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I'm not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am not.

[06:20:01]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do not believe that the current evidence would support articles of impeachment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not here today to even suggest that there was corruption, fraud or any wrongdoing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: One -- one senior Republican aide described the hearing as, quote, "an unmitigated disaster," saying, quote, "You want witnesses that make your case. Picking witnesses that refute House Republicans' arguments for impeachment is mind-blowing."

Nevertheless, House Oversight chair James Comer now says he'll issue subpoenas for Hunter Biden's bank records.

Joining us now, CNN anchor and senior political analyst, John Avlon; "Washington Post" political video editor, Joyce Koh; and CNN senior legal analyst, Elie Honig.

Elie, I want to start with you, because this wasn't -- the opening hearing of an impeachment inquiry is not necessarily the hearing that's designed to lay out all the smoking guns and, essentially, have everybody decide that everyone is guilty.

But Republicans controlled the hearing, the witnesses, the framing of the hearing, and they got run over yesterday. And that's not my saying that. That's members of House Republican leadership, their advisers, saying that repeatedly. How?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: What a complete disaster and embarrassment.

And you're right, Phil. The first hearing, traditionally, is not necessarily where you have to make the whole case --

MATTINGLY: Right.

HONIG: -- but you have to have something. You don't want your own witnesses essentially turning on you, like we just saw.

And for contrast, when we were in the impeachment inquiry stage in Donald Trump's first impeachment, the one related to his attempt to shake down Ukraine, during that process, we heard first first-person testimony from Marie Yovanovitch, from Alexander Vindman, from Bill Taylor, from all these people who become familiar, who were giving you direct evidence that was relevant to impeachment. Here, they're still looking, and, God bless them. You have that --

they have the House majority. You can do what you want. You can subpoena what you want. You can investigate what you want. But I think they got a little -- well, quite a bit ahead of themselves here by calling this hearing to a start when they just don't have the evidence.

HARLOW: A couple of things we don't know. We don't know if there will be another hearing. We don't know if they will subpoena President Biden, but we don't know if articles of impeachment will be brought.

What we do know is the time that was spent and chosen to be spent in this moment. And what was interesting is that Chair Comer said yesterday, John, that this inquiry, this team, et cetera, is deemed essential? Which means they will keep doing this work through a shutdown?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST/ANCHOR: It's essential for their short-term political purposes. It's not essential to the functioning of government. Nor is it essential from any constitutional standard when it comes to actual impeachment.

Now, Comer begins by saying there's a mountain of evidence, which is completely refuted by his own witnesses, who say there's no direct evidence.

HARLOW: He did talk about -- I don't know if we have the sound. We'll play it later in the show, for sure. But do you remember that moment when Comer talked about the -- and I'm paraphrasing here -- two wire transfers from --

MATTINGLY: Yes.

HARLOW: -- China at an important moment. Right? I think those are things we need more details on.

AVLON: We all -- it's perfectly legitimate to get more information.

HARLOW: Yes.

AVLON: But not at the standard of an impeachment inquiry, which has an historic standard. It's only happened four times in our history. Five if you include Nixon.

HARLOW: You're saying, get that first?

AVLON: Get that first. This is just a fishing expedition for blatantly partisan purposes, without the kind of evidence necessary to this constitutional standard.

HARLOW: And saying something versus showing something is very different.

AVLON: Big-time.

MATTINGLY: And I think that's the biggest thing. On those wire transfers, that was when Hunter Biden was living with Joe Biden at his residence.

HARLOW: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Which is why, you know, Biden folks say that that's why the address was on it with those transfers.

But to your point, like, these are things that raise questions. And I think the reality is I think a lot of Democrats have acknowledged, everything that Hunter Biden was doing, trying to trade on the name while it happens in Washington on a regular basis, looks really bad.

I think the question, in terms of if you're controlling the narrative, you're controlling the framing, how do you get this far ahead of yourself and then end up with something like yesterday?

JOYCE KOH, POLITICAL VIDEO EDITOR, "WASHINGTON POST": Well, I think that was a big question going into this impeachment inquiry in the first place, is how do you -- what do you do when there is no evidence? And if you don't have witnesses that are being presented with any firsthand knowledge of this?

I don't think anyone is questioning that Hunter Biden did accept payments from Chinese nationals, but you have to -- in exchange for his father's influence. But you have to be able to prove that the president himself also used his power to then benefit his family and enrich his family.

So I -- you know, in talking to a lot of strategists, Democratic and Republican strategists, that is kind of the big question, is how do they -- what do they do when they don't find any evidence? And what do they do when this does not amount to -- if they don't find evidence, and this -- what happens if this doesn't really amount to anything substantial?

HONIG: To that point, there was some conspicuous sleight of hand, I think, going on by Representative Comer. In his opening statement, he kept on saying, "the Bidens" or "the Biden family," but he couldn't say, in any kind of good faith, linking to President Biden.

And he kept talking about the massive documents, thousands and thousands. Fine. I mean, I very much have an open mind. I'm curious. I want to see what they have? Do any of those wire transfers link up to anything? But, man, look before you leap.

HARLOW: Can you give us -- you're so good as always explaining this with the historical context. It's not normal to have this many impeachment inquires in this short a span of time?

[06:25:09]

AVLON: Not remotely. I mean, the first impeachment inquiry is Andrew Johnson after the Civil War.

The second, you've got to fast-forward 100-plus years to Richard Nixon. Then you've got Bill Clinton, and then you've got two Trumps. Right? Both of which, by the way, I would argue hit that standard. And this is simply a tit-for-tat acceleration cycle.

And by the way, not for nothing, but the split screen yesterday between, you know, President Biden giving a speech about threats to democracy at John -- McCain Institute.

HARLOW: At the McCain Institute, by the way.

AVLON: Bipartisanship. McCain Institute in Arizona.

And this, you know, sort of farcical impeachment inquiry by historic standards, that tells you everything you need to know about the bizzarro state of our politics right now.

HARLOW: Bizarro. Specific term. Scientific analysis.

AVLON: Bizarro world, yes.

MATTINGLY: That's an historical reference.

HONIG: Yes, it was very important.

MATTINGLY: To that point, I'm glad you brought this up. Watching the speech yesterday, knowing the preparations heading into the speech. Let's take a listen to something that President Biden said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm here to speak about another threat to our democracy that we all too often ignore: the threat to our political institutions, to our Constitution itself and the very character of our nation.

There's an extremist movement that does not share the basic beliefs in our democracy. The MAGA movement. But there's no question today's Republican Party is driven and intimidated by MAGA Republican extremists.

Trump says the Constitution gave him, quote, "the right to do whatever he wants as president," end of quote. I've never even heard a president say that in jest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Fourth speech from the president on democracy, and on the stakes, really, the throughline from his campaign announcement in 2019, to now and his campaign in 2024.

And yet the chaos on Capitol Hill, impeachment inquiries, the Republican campaign. Is the message going to be as effective as Democrats think it was in the midterms?

KOH: You know, I think the president is going to have to do more. Now we've had four years of the Biden administration and looking forward into 2024.

I think that this message will resonate. It will continue to resonate among, certainly, Democrats and his base of supporters.

But he's going to have to do more, because there are a lot of dissatisfied voters out there who have seen four years of his administration, are dissatisfied with the economy, his handling on immigration, complaints about his age. We saw that in "Washington Post" polling just this past -- this past week with Biden, you know, trailing Trump by at least ten points.

MATTINGLY: Yes. It will be a central theme, but I think he has a record now, which is different than 2020, that he's going to have to talk about.

All right, guys. Appreciate it, as always.

HARLOW: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Thanks so much.

HARLOW: Happening today, more autoworkers could walk off the job. That could happen within hours this morning. We'll give you the latest on the strike, the negotiations, and what the -- Bill Ford himself is telling his employees about politicians getting involved.

MATTINGLY: And new claims of racist taunts at Tesla plants. Details on the allegations in a lawsuit filed against the electric carmaker. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)