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Government Set to Shut Down at 12:01 A.M. Sunday; Court Clears Way for Trump's New York Fraud Trial to Start Monday; Border Patrol Agents Must Continue to Work if Government Shuts Down. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired September 29, 2023 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): This is an embarrassment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The case that could spell the beginning of the end for Trump's business empire is starting on Monday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump, Donald Trump Jr., Eric Trump, Ivanka Trump and Michael Cohen among many of their witnesses.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: The former president decides not to fight to make his Georgia trial a federal case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We'll be seeing those proceedings play out on camera.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Good morning, everyone. We are so glad you're with us. A critical day, not only in Washington but for the nation this morning.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, because we are headed towards a government shutdown and there seems to be now way out of it because House Republicans don't have a plan at this point.

HARLOW: That means it could be quite long if it happens.

Good morning, it is Friday, the 29th of September. And as we just said, a government shutdown is imminent, less than 41 hours left on the clock.

MATTINGLY: Now, no final plan but trying to secure a plan. Speaker Kevin McCarthy is trying to hold a last-ditch vote on a stopgap to keep the government moving temporarily but it doesn't look like he has the votes in his own party, certainly can't get it through the Senate or White House. He's also facing a serious threat of losing this job.

One hour from now, the House Rules Committee is set to meet to try and pave the way for a vote on that stopgap bill, even though, at this point, they don't think they have votes at all. HARLOW: Here is why a shutdown matters for you. Nearly 4 million federal employees won't be paid. That includes more than a million active duty troops, essential workers will keep working but they won't be paid, while others furloughed. The White House is warning a shutdown could lead to huge travel delays and training for desperately needed air traffic controllers. That will stop. The IRS will stop processing most tax refunds and it will be a lot harder for you to get in touch with the agency if you need help with your taxes.

MATTINGLY: Now, on top of all that, food stamps for millions of poor Americans could be in danger, along with housing assistance for the elderly, disabled and other low-income tenants who rely on federal aid. The FDA could be forced to delay food safety inspection across the nation. If you're a college student, federal loans and financial aid programs, they could be disrupted, while majority of national parks are expected to close if the government shuts down.

HARLOW: In previous shutdowns, Washington, D.C. literally became a mess. Back in 2018 and 2019, we saw trash cans overflowing garbage scattered across the National Mall by the U.S. Capitol and iconic monuments as the shutdowns dragged on.

Needless to say, there is a lot happening and riding on what Congress does today. Our Lauren Fox is there. Good morning, Lauren.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Poppy. Right now, House Republicans are trying to push forward with a plan to pass a short-term spending bill. This is a last-ditch effort by House Speaker Kevin McCarthy. But as you noted, the votes right now are not there. We know at least eight hard-line Republicans who said there's no circumstance, no way in which they would vote for a short-term stopgap measure to keep the government funded while they negotiate a fuller spending package for one fiscal year.

Right now, that means that Kevin McCarthy is going to go to the floor around 11:30 this morning, try to get a procedural vote passed on this bill, and likely it will fail. In the past, procedural votes were no big deal. House Republicans or the majority would vote for them even if members had concerns about the underlying bill. But as House Speaker Kevin McCarthy's future is uncertain, hardliners used those procedural votes as a way to show McCarthy that they are serious and frustrated with his leadership.

Meanwhile, question, looming whether McCarthy is going to be able to keep his job for very long. We know that Matt Gaetz, a hard-line conservative, has been warning for weeks now that at any moment he could bring a motion to vacate, a vote to oust the speaker from his position. Obviously, one of the key concerns, one of the key problems for hardliners who want to move forward with that is who would they have replacing McCarthy. No one, it seems, really wants that job. Poppy, Phil?

HARLOW: And that's a problem, a big one. Lauren Fox, thanks very much.

MATTINGLY: Well, millions of Americans are bracing for the impacts on food benefits, military and travel, if the government shuts down at midnight. There are real consequences here, not just politics. TSA workers considered essential, so they must show up for their jobs, well, getting paid, though, at busy airports across the country.

CNN's Miguel Marquez is live for us at New York's LaGuardia Airport. Miguel, airport security does not shut down even if and when the government does. So, what are they doing to prepare?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They are not spending lots. They are looking at their budgets and trying to figure out how they can live paycheck to paycheck if today -- today is pay day for most federal government workers, and they're trying to figure out how, if this thing goes on a long time, they're going to make it through.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ (voice over): Veronica Stowe feeds two teenagers, a seven- year-old, her mother, herself and her husband, six total, relying mostly on a once a month payment from the government's SNAP, Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program.

So, you get SNAP benefits once a month.

[07:05:00]

Does that last you? Does that buy food for an entire month?

VERONICA STOWE, RELIES ON FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOOD PROGRAM: Sometimes it does. Like, right now, I have $200 left. The month is almost gone.

MARQUEZ: Her next SNAP payment scheduled for October 16th. The government has guaranteed it through the month in case of a shutdown. But after that, it's unclear.

What are you doing different today in case the government shuts down?

STOWE: Well I cut it back on how we eat, how much we eat. We buy the same amount of food. We cook it differently. Instead of fry, we stew it so you can use it as a soup or broth so it can last longer. You have to make cut back.

MARQUEZ: She's also stocking up at a Brooklyn food pantry.

STOWE: This place is critical because when I run out of food at home, what am I really -- where am I going?

MARQUEZ: The campaign against hunger saw food insecurity skyrocket during the pandemic, the current migration crisis adding even more pressure.

DR. MELONY SAMUELS, CEO AND FOUNDER, THE CAMPAIGN AGAINST HUNGER: We are feeding 12,000 to 14,000 families per week. And so that's equate to over 20 million meals.

MARQUEZ: 20 million meals a year. During the last government shutdown they quickly saw a new group of New Yorkers in need of food.

SAMEULS: All the government workers are going to come in. We had from the TSA, we had the hospitals, we had so many families that were in need of food in 2018, 2019, that it just broke the safety net.

MARQUEZ: The shutdown in 2018 was also a drag on shops whose customers pay for food with government benefits.

Nationwide, the cost of a lengthy shutdown, enormous, the 2018 shutdown disrupted $18 billion in federal spending and estimated $3 billion was never recovered, denting the nation's GDP lower by 0.02 percent.

The nation's airports and air travel vulnerable during a shutdown. The 2018 shutdown, 34 days, the longest ever, a fight over then President Trump's border wall funding, sought TSA agents, air traffic controllers and many other federal employees working without pay until the dispute was resolved.

ALEXIS MADDOX, TSA, EXPERT TRANSPORTATINO SECURITY OFFICER: Mentally, it can be very draining on any human being, not just officers or employees for the federal agency. To not know when you'll be able to feed your family or provide the next meal or be able to provide education and childcare for your children, if that is your situation, it is very frustrating.

MARQUEZ: Alexis Maddox, who works for the TSA and the union representing federal employees, says most government workers live paycheck to paycheck, paid every two weeks. The next payday, today, Friday, September 29th. When will that next check come? That uncertainty producing the most anxiety.

MADDOX: We are bracing for the worst. We're telling officers to save a little extra money, put some things to the side. If it's not a necessity, please don't. Don't spend in excess what you don't need because we don't know.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ (on camera): So, since 1977, there's been 20 shutdowns or there's a stoppage of government funding. Most of those have been resolved within a week or less. But things are so divided in the nation's capital right now. People that we spoke to here don't think it will be resolved very quickly. They are hoping and praying that like they have to go to work, sometimes they say they don't agree with what their boss asked them to do, but they get it done, they do their work, they're hoping Congress does the same. Phil?

MATTINGLY: All right. Miguel Marquez, thank you very much.

And joining us now is one of the Republicans who poses a short-term funding measure, is Congressman Tim Burchett of Tennessee. Congressman, I appreciate your time this morning.

I'll get into kind of the political dynamics and the chamber dynamics in a minute, but I want to start with that in terms of, as you look at the path things seemed to be headed on right now, how does the cost benefit net out as worth it when you think about the impact that this will have on people outside of the Capitol Building?

REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): Well, first of all, thanks for having me on. And, of course, it's a terrible thing to have a shutdown, but I'll tell you what's worse is if our whole economic system collapses. We're taking in about $5 trillion this year and we'll spend about $7 trillion. So, this economic model that we're in right now is just not sustainable. And I dare say that if the economic system completely shuts down, that it will do more than -- it will be a little more than discomfort.

As you stated in the preamble there, that payday for most government employees is today, and some people are paid monthly and some people are paid every two weeks. So, hopefully, we'll have it -- it will be painless because, hopefully, we'll have it all resolved within a couple of weeks.

[07:10:00]

MATTINGLY: You say a couple of weeks. What do you think people should think as they watch this play out outside of Washington? I think we get very insular and myopic about covering things like this, but your constituents back home, what should they be thinking right now?

BURCHETT: Well, first of all, I don't think it'll take a couple weeks. Obviously, I've been a very much a critic of our work. I think here in Washington, D.C. You know, we start meetings around 10:30 and take a couple hours for lunch and kick off at about 4:30 and then tell America we've been working hard when they've been working all day and, frankly, it disgusts me, but we're here and we need to work.

So, I think the folks back home understand the fact that we're up here trying to do something and the conservative folks that I'm one of and the people that I represent understand that we're keeping our word. We are going to make this country fiscally sound, if we can.

And that's what this is all about. You know, we want to have single issue payment bills. We want -- we don't like the C.R.s, continuing resolutions, because that's just a gimmick. It's a 30-day C.R. and then they tell us -- leadership will tell us we need to pass another C.R. so we don't have to pass any more C.R.s.

And that's like telling a crack head, look, I'm going to give you some more crack to get you off a crack. But because this country is addicted basically to our great grandchildren's money, and this is the process and that's why we're going through this so we won't have to go through this again.

MATTINGLY: Connecting this to crack heads was a twist I didn't expect necessarily this morning to take but the idea of -- I understand your point. I understand history quite well in terms of these issues. But you guys have basically blocked individual spending bills repeatedly. You guys, I mean, the House Republican Conference, repeatedly over the course of the last two and a half months. So, if you're Kevin McCarthy, you're saying I put up individual bills. You won't even let us get onto the bill, let alone get through the rule.

BURCHETT: No, no they haven't, they haven't gone through it, like we did in the past, like the way it's set up. It's set up right now or in the past, it's been in the last 30 years, we have not passed a budget. It's set up so we go through this process of a continued resolution and then we do a 30-day and then we do another 30-day. And then, guess what, we're backed up against Christmas and everybody needs to get home so they pass what's called an omnibus.

And the omnibus is basically the Nancy Pelosi you got to pass it to know what's in it, 2,000 pages, and then you read down to find out what's in your district and then you stop reading. And then you vote for the 1955 other pages and that's why we're 33. That's why we're trillions of dollars in debt. That's why we spend $2 trillion more than we take in. It's not feasible and that's what we want to stop and that's what we did. And as you saw last night --

MATTINGLY: I understand your point. And I think what I would just say, sir, and I assure you, I've covered very close to the appropriations process, I know everything that you're detailing right now, I think last night is a good example, though, right? The homeland bill goes down. You passed three of the four bills that were up. If you guys are sinking your own -

(CROSSTALK)

BURCHETT: No, sir. Homeland -

(CROSSTALK)

MATTINGLY: I'm sorry, DHS passed, Ag went down. It's been a confusing couple of weeks, sorry. But if you're shooting down your own spending bills, DOD has gone down a couple of times over the course of the last several weeks, my point is how do you ever reconcile if you can't get your own bills through? I think that's what McCarthy has been saying.

(CROSSTALK)

BURCHETT: Well, my own bills, who are my own bills? You know you're talking about a defense bill. You're talking about a Pentagon that is never passed an audit. You understand that process, obviously. And they spend trillions of dollars. They lose billions of dollars and yet this year that we put $30 billion more into our Pentagon.

Now, all I'm saying is let's -- and that's all the conservative folks are saying, let's go back to pre-COVID spending levels. If we just went back to pre-COVID spending levels, and I dare say you or anybody else at the station could name one government program that's been added since COVID that we that you can't live without, yet here we are, if we just go back to those pre-spending levels, then we'd be okay, then we could balance our budget.

Jodey Arrington out of Texas, you really ought to get him on and talk to him. He is the chairman of the Budget Committee and we actually have a budget now. He was given his ten minutes in conference and they gave him the little golf clap and everybody patted him on the head, but we actually have a budget if leadership would take it up because that is what we are constitutionally and that is what we're really mandated to do. One thing in Congress is to pass a budget and yet we haven't done it in the last 30 years.

MATTINGLY: Sir, I do -- before I let you go you are on the House Oversight Committee. I think there's a lot of frustration inside some Republican circles, including Republican leadership, last night with how the first hearing of the impeachment inquiry went. You've been on the record saying that you thought this was very clear in terms of the case up to this point before yesterday. After yesterday, do you still feel the same?

BURCHETT: Yes. But what we have to do, like my friend, Ken Buck, says, who was a former prosecutor, that we have to tie it to when he was president, all the crooked dealings, $20 million, unpaid taxes, all those stuff that swept under the rug by the Justice Department, that doesn't really matter apparently.

[07:15:11]

What we have to do is tie it to his current presidency and the $250,000 wire from Communist China to the president's residence, that was after he had announced that he was running for president. So, there is a direct tie.

And you have to ask yourself, honestly, $20 million of money flowed through that family. They created 20 different LLCs just to launder the money. They didn't produce anything. And you have to ask yourself, why are they not paying taxes? If you and I sell $600 worth of stuff on eBay, we get a letter from the IRS demanding that we pay that.

MATTINGLY: Can I just ask you, though, because Congressman Buck, as you noted, former prosecutor, has said that the evidence has not shown that you guys have met the threshold. He's not seen direct connections to the president. You're citing him here.

(CROSSTALK)

BURCHETT: That's correct.

MATTINGLY: That's why none of the stuff you're laying out has necessarily directly connected to the president.

BURCHETT: Well, it's directed to the president and the fact that he says he had no contact with him, and yet the witnesses say he did. And then this last $250,000 wire went to his residence. I don't know or at least his residence and him as the recipient of it. I don't know how you say that's not evidence.

So -- and there's bank records and there's FBI informants that are not Republican or Democrat informants that have said what went on and they were told to look the other way. So, I think there's a lot of smoke there. And I think -- and also I think you have to realize too that Democrats are being openly against this president. They are looking for somewhere else. And I suspect they'll throw him under the bus a long time before we will. And I suspect you'll see the governor of California march out as the Democrat nominee, in my opinion.

MATTINGLY: It's, you know, House Republicans weighing in on Democratic presidential strategy, it's an interesting position. But I know that's where people are.

(CROSSTALK)

Congressman, we got to go. I appreciate it.

BURCHETT: That's why I have Democrats telling me that. So, thank you so much.

MATTINGLY: Thank you, sir.

HARLOW: It was a really interesting, robust, important conversation, Phil. Thank you. Thanks to the congressman as well.

Meantime, former President Trump's New York civil fraud trial, it's going to start Monday. They did not win an appeal to try to delay it. We'll tell you who could take the stand. That's next.

MATTINGLY: For many migrants, the road to America is dangerous and starts much further away than Mexico. CNN joined two families who are risking it all for a chance at a better life. That's ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're waiting for the two families that we met to make their way across. And they're about to board a raft and meet us in the middle as they cross illegally to Mexico.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:20:00]

HARLOW: Welcome back. Three days from now, the trial is set to begin in the $250 million New York civil fraud case against former President Trump and his adult sons after a state appellate court denied Trump's motion to stay the trial yesterday. Trump has been found liable for fraud and the Trump Organization's business certification has been canceled.

The judge says Trump inflated the values of his golf courses and hotels as well as his homes in Mar-a-Lago and Seven Springs on financial statements.

CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig is here with more. They wanted it stayed, they didn't want it to happen, they wanted it delayed, they're going to trial. What's going to happen?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: This thing is a go, Poppy. It's starting on Monday. So, this case is a civil case, first of all, not a criminal case, brought by the New York State Attorney General Letitia James, against Donald Trump, his adult children, and the businesses that they ran.

Now, the attorney general's core allegation here is that Trump and his businesses systematically and dramatically overinflated the value of their real estate holdings and their assets.

Let me just give you one quick example. Mar-a-Lago, the actual buildings, the plant there, was assessed by the Palm Beach County Assessor, not some partisan interest, at being worth about $20 million. But Donald Trump and his paperwork claimed that Mar-a-Lago was worth $500 million. I did the math on that, that's a lot.

Now, why would they do this? Because they would go then to banks, including Deutsche Bank and others, and they would use those inflated values to get higher loans than they might otherwise get at better interest rates.

Now, important to know, the A.G. has already won an important piece of this case. Donald Trump has lost that piece of the case. The judge on this case, Judge Arthur Engoron, issued a ruling a couple days ago giving a judgment for the attorney general on one of the counts in the case for repetitive, persistent fraud.

And in this, the judge said that Donald Trump's assessments were coming from a fantasy world, not the real world.

HARLOW: So, what's interesting is that Trump's legal team chose a bench trial, not a jury trial. So, it's this judge again, who's going to make the ruling in after all the witnesses testify, which is just fascinating to me. What kind of witnesses would take the stand?

HONIG: So, we are getting a sense now, we're seeing the party's witness list. First of all, those witness lists include Donald Trump himself, his adult children, Don Jr., Eric Trump and Ivanka Trump.

Now, interesting to note here, in a criminal case, prosecutors cannot subpoena, they cannot force the defendant to take the stand. That would violate the Fifth Amendment right. But in a civil case, the plaintiffs and the defendants can subpoena one another. If that happens, Trump and his children are going to have two choices. They can testify.

That's risky, though. We saw Donald Trump's deposition in this case, it was a disaster, but they can also take the Fifth Amendment. But in a civil case, Poppy, if any of them take the Fifth Amendment, the judge can consider that against them.

HARLOW: So, the defense here would be lack of intent, lack of knowledge?

HONIG: So, a couple of defenses I think we're going to see. First of all, Donald Trump has argued and will continue to argue, these assessments of real estate value, there is some subjectivity, reasonable minds can differ. But the judge has said, yes, but not by 25 times.

They're also going to argue, Trump's team, that they had these waivers, that what they call the worthless clause, saying our numbers here, they're worthless, don't pay attention to them. But the judge has said, that worthless clause itself is worthless.

And then, finally, Trump's team is going to argue, there's no victim here, there's no loss, the banks hold it.

HARLOW: Because they repaid the loans.

HONIG: They got paid back with interest. That actually does not matter for the count that the A.G. has already won, but it will matter for the other counts.

HARLOW: I just want to turn the page, if we could, Elie, with the time we've left, to Georgia.

HONIG: Yes.

MATTINGLY: This was fascinating.

[07:25:00]

You're on the air as this broke yesterday. They're not trying to move this RICO case to federal court for Trump. Why?

HONIG: I admit to being stunned by this one. We saw Mark Meadows try to make this move, unsuccessfully, the federal judge rejected it. Jeffrey Clark is in the process of making that argument. He could lose at any moment. I think he will lose. But Donald Trump's team said, no, we're actually going to stay in state court.

I think there're two strategic reasons that could be driving this. One, the state judge has been right down the middle. He's given some rulings that I think Trump likes. I think they want to stay with him.

Second of all, that state trial is very far off. They're going to get to see the early trial first. I think they like the timing, the procedural posture they're in. I think they're worried that if they got moved to federal court, they could be put on a fast track.

HARLOW: They get to see the approach of the prosecutors in these cases that go before them. And then we could see it all on T.V. if it stays in state court.

HONIG: Exactly, quite a twist.

HARLOW: All right. Elie, thank you, I appreciate it. Phil?

MATTINGLY: So, how will the government shutdown impact the crisis at the border? Our David Culver is in Mexico on the ground with the people risking their lives to make it here to the U.S. David? CULVER: And Phil, really understanding this migrant crisis impacting the US requires you to see what's happening much farther south of the U.S. border. Here we are in Southern Mexico. For that reason, you can see hundreds of migrants gathering. They're seeing record highs at the Mexico-Guatemala border.

Just ahead, I'm going to bring you along for a unique sampling of what it takes for these migrants to get here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTINGLY: As we continue to wait for a looming shutdown, we're taking into what it means for all sorts of elements around the country. Right now, I want to dig into the nation's border crisis.

Border Patrol agents are considered essential federal workers. They must continue to work, but without pay.

The shutdown could harm other operations in previous shutdowns. Like the one in 2019, the Homeland Security Department was forced to delay maintenance of facilities. According to a congressional report, this, quote, endangered the lives of law enforcement officers and created significant border security vulnerabilities.

Despite all these issues, migrants are still arriving every single day, hoping for better life in the U.S.

CNN's David Culver joins us live from Mexico's southern border with Guatemala. David, you've been doing, I think, such revealing, to some degree, reporting given the political conversation that we tend to have on these issues.

[07:30:04]

Since you've been on the ground there, you also went on a journey with some of these migrants. Tell us what you found, what you saw.