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Congress Paralyzed as House GOP Scrambles to Find Next Speaker; Judge Issued Gag Order for Trump in Civil Fraud Trial. Aired 6-6:30a ET
Aired October 04, 2023 - 06:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow along with Phil Mattingly, live outside of the Capitol in Washington, D.C., this morning. It is Wednesday, October 4, and there is no speaker of the House.
[06:00:55]
We are going to discuss the politics of how this happened and where we go from here. Certainly, we're going to talk about the process of what happens next, but we are really focusing this morning on the implications.
The people's House is paralyzed. It cannot do its job for you, the American people, after Kevin McCarthy became the first speaker of the House in our nation's history to be removed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The office of speaker of the House of the United States House of Representatives is hereby declared vacant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Take a look at these. These are the front pages from the major papers across the country. As you wake up this morning, our nation enters uncharted territory.
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: The House is in chaos, with just weeks left to prevent a government shutdown. Republicans are now scrambling to find a new leader after a small rebellion, just eight members, led by Matt Gaetz, was able to topple McCarthy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): In today's world, if you're sitting in Congress, and you took a gamble to make sure government was still open, and eight people can throw you out as speaker, and the Democrats who said they wanted to keep government open, I think you've got a real divide. I think you've got a real institutional problem. That is not a government that works. That is chaotic.
(END VIDEO CLIP) MATTINGLY: While there is no clear front-runner, some names are emerging as possible successors to McCarthy, including his No. 2, House Majority Leader Steve Scalise; chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Jim Jordan.
CNN congressional correspondent Lauren Fox is here with us on set. Lauren, the big question now, I think, once you kind of pick your jaws up from the floor -- this is the first time in the history of the institution that this has happened -- what happens next?
LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we're in unprecedented times. The question, of course, when will a race for speaker begin? It will not start, at the earliest, until next week. That is when House Republicans plan to return to the Capitol and begin this process.
Right now, there's no alternative, Phil, and that is really why we are in these unprecedented times.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FOX (voice-over): Former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy vowing not to run for speaker again after an unprecedented vote Tuesday, plunging the House of Representatives into chaos.
MCCARTHY: Unfortunately, 4 percent of our conference can join all the Democrats and dictate who can be the Republican speaker in this House. I don't think that rule is good for the institution, but apparently, I'm the only one.
FOX (voice-over): The motion to vacate was filed by Representative Matt Gaetz who, along with seven other GOP members, voted to oust the speaker. With Democrats' votes, the motion passed 216 to 210.
REP. AUSTIN SCOTT (R-GA): Those eight people are anarchists. And they're Chaos Caucus members.
FOX (voice-over): McCarthy's speakership was the third shortest in history and was plagued with GOP infighting over spending cuts, border security, and providing aid to Ukraine.
MCCARTHY: You all know Matt Gaetz. You know it was personal. It had nothing to do about spending.
REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): Speaker McCarthy's time is over. I wish him well. I have no personal animus to him. I -- I hope he finds fruitful pastures.
FOX (voice-over): Now the race is on for House Republicans to elect a new speaker as another possible government shutdown is 44 days away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I'd like you to take away from it is I'm tired of being lectured by people that have been here for decades, OK, and have put us in $33 trillion in debt.
FOX (voice-over): Several names have emerged as possible contenders for speaker, including House Majority Leader Steve Scalise. Scalise has already started reaching out to members, gauging a possible bid for the role.
REP. ELVIRA SALAZAR (R-FL): No one really knows who has the votes, so now we're going to go through that exercise right now and see who has our -- our support.
FOX (voice-over): Another possible name floated is House Judiciary Chairman Jim Jordan.
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): I thought it was unfair to -- unfair to Kevin. He's a good man, and he didn't deserve this, in my judgment.
[06:05:03]
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Will you run for speaker?
JORDAN: That's a decision for the conference.
FOX (voice-over): One person not interested in the job is Gaetz.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you putting yourself forward for the speakership?
GAETZ: Absolutely not. I have no desire to be speaker.
FOX (voice-over): McCarthy, for his part, says he has no regrets about his tenure as speaker.
MCCARTHY: I don't regret standing up for choosing governing over grievance. It is my responsibility. It is my job.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOX (on camera): And House Republicans, because they don't have a speaker, and because we don't know how long this process is going to take, there's legitimate questions about whether or not the government is going to be funded in just a little over a month and a half at this moment, given the fact that right now, the House of Representatives, the building behind us, has really descended into chaos.
HARLOW: It was so shocking yesterday when the news came that they were going home to socialize with others, a different way to interpret socialize, but then come back in a week to try to get all this business done for the American people.
Lauren, stick around. Thank you very much.
FOX (voice-over): Let's also bring in "EARLY START" anchor and CNN national affairs analyst Kasie Hunt; and Axios senior politics reporter Eugene Scott. Guys, welcome.
Eugene, I want to start with you. Because we can get into the kind of nitty-gritty, in the weeds of the speaker's race and what's going to happen and what delegations are meeting, how they're actually going to try and play this out, but to start, to pull back a little bit, this was a week House Republicans were supposed to start moving on two more spending bills, which is at the crux of this entire problem.
Instead, the institution is completely paralyzed. It is a critical piece of one of the branches of the federal government of the United States of America, and no one has any idea if there's a path forward at this point. How is it possible we got here?
EUGENE SCOTT, SENIOR POLITICS REPORTER, AXIOS: Well, if we think about how this began, and McCarthy ascending to the speaker leadership position, we shouldn't be that surprised. He had a hard time getting there in the first place.
And we should have known then -- we didn't know that it would happen within 12 months -- but that he would find himself in a state where someone would bring forward a motion to vacate, based on disagreements with him on policy, procedure, behavior, ideology.
And we're here. He had a hard time keeping this party together for -- for various reasons, various ideological diversity. There are also some petty grievances. And this is what happens when you have those issues.
KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR/NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: So, Phil, I go back to -- and I know you have known Kevin McCarthy over the course of your career, and I've been in a lot of different situations with him, public, private, listening to how he talks to people.
When you are listening to him, he is almost always telling the person across the table from him what they want to hear. That is how he got into this position in the first place.
And when your job is primarily to recruit candidates and raise money, it works really well.
I think the challenge here, and part of why you're seeing so many of these hardline members talk about personal reasons they're upset with McCarthy, is that once you actually have the gavel, once you're in power and you say things, there are actually consequences when you don't deliver on them. People do not forget.
And, you know, I think he kind of got himself into a little bit of trouble here, in that the way he has always done business, the way he rose, just simply didn't work once the responsibility was on his shoulders.
HARLOW: Lauren, what about Americans waking up this morning to this news, and they're at home, going to work and making breakfast for their kids, and sending them to school? And they're asking themselves, can we trust Republicans to govern, to do their job?
FOX: Yes. I think this is one of the issues the Democrats were weighing when they were trying to decide --
HARLOW: Right.
FOX: -- yesterday how they wanted to proceed.
Republicans were making the argument to their colleagues that, Don't you want this institution to function? And I think Democrats were thinking to themselves, yes, we do, but not with Kevin McCarthy.
And there is a possibility this is prolonged, that this goes on for a very long time, and the American people --
HARLOW: What's very long, Lauren?
FOX: -- the American people start to see that this is what Republicans do when they govern.
A long time could be weeks. It could be days. But, you know, even if this is wrapped up by next Friday --
HARLOW: OK.
FOX: -- that's still two weeks lost in the appropriations process. And that is two weeks that House Republicans want to try to pass standalone bills that Phil was talking about.
Those bills are going nowhere in the United States Senate, which means it's sort of a shell game that's happening on the House side, before you get to the larger problem of actually negotiating with the Senate and getting a deal.
And the next person who becomes speaker, that problem that existed for McCarthy --
HARLOW: Yes.
FOX: -- is going to exist for them.
HARLOW: It's about keeping the government open, right? What are they, 42 days now and counting?
MATTINGLY: Forty-three, 42, yes.
HARLOW: Ukraine funding.
MATTINGLY: Right.
HARLOW: So many critical issues in -- in these few weeks. And as Lauren said, maybe they waste two weeks or more here.
MATTINGLY: And Lauren makes a good point in the sense that they're trying -- they're playing a shell game when it comes to the actual bills themselves, but they haven't even started to, like, set up the table and put the shells out yet to play the shell game. They took it all back yesterday, and so now everything is frozen.
Just going to try and continue the metaphor as far as I can go.
HUNT: Let's also -- look, I don't want to be doomsday over here, but big picture, right, I mean, this is the United States of America. It's a major player on the world stage.
[06:10:03]
We haven't had a -- I mean, the rule -- the rule that was written that means that Patrick McHenry has that gavel, it was actually put into the rule book formally after September 11, because there needed to be a plan for continuity of American government.
And while right now, yes, we're talking about what, I'm sure to many Americans, feels very wonky, very in the weeds -- spending bills, the appropriations process. It's very hard to understand. But if there were to be a crisis, which there could be at any moment, the reality is there is no one running this show. And that is potentially a major problem.
HARLOW: Then what actually happens? Let's play that out for a minute.
FOX: The power that Patrick McHenry has right now is extremely limited. Basically, he can run a speaker's race.
HARLOW: That's it?
FOX: That's what he can do right now. He cannot take further legislative action, which speaks to Kasie's point. If you have the crisis -- and we, you know, don't want to be doomsday -- but if you have a crisis, you don't have a way to solve it in the House of Representatives.
HARLOW: So --
HUNT: Let's play this out, Poppy. And Phil, I think you were -- I think you were there when they passed the American -- the TARP, the plan that bailed out the banks. Right?
HARLOW: It took a couple of shots.
HUNT: We had -- you know, if Lehman Brothers were to fall, the way it did at that time, they can't organize this body to actually do anything quickly.
I mean, think about what happened when COVID was declared a pandemic, and they had to suddenly make sure that Americans had enough money in their pockets to get food.
Now, we can hope that, in the event that something like that happened, the Republicans would recognize it. And they would say, OK, let's very quickly get Steve Scalise in the chair so we can actually do things.
But I do think it's important for people to remember that the Congress, in moments of great national crisis and strife, actually plays a very significant role.
HARLOW: Those are great examples.
Let's talk about options for who it could be. MATTINGLY: I mean, I think this is -- and Kasie makes a great point,
when she says maybe they'll move quickly onto Steve Scalise. He is the No. 2. He's the majority leader. He and Jim Jordan were asked what they want to do. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you physically up for the job as speaker? Do you think you can handle that?
REP. STEVE SCALISE (R-LA): I feel great.
JORDAN: We're going to do the same thing (ph) next week.
SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: If the conference comes to you and says, we'd like you to be the speaker, would you do it?
JORDAN: I'm going to talk to the conference over the next week, Sean. I think that's the key. I don't -- I think this is a day where we say, look, what happened here was not good.
HANNITY: Yes.
JORDAN: I think what happened to Kevin McCarthy was not fair. Let's figure out how we come together as a conference and focus on our agenda.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: So two things here, and I think they're critical points. One, Steve Scalise has health issues. He was just diagnosed -- correct me if I'm wrong -- with cancer of the blood a few weeks ago, at least publicly. He made that clear. So there's some concern about that. There's also concerns, just generally, about getting to 218.
But Eugene, Jim Jordan, that answer is very, very telling.
SCOTT: Yes.
MATTINGLY: He's leaving the door open, which is different than he was during the 300 votes for McCarthy. And he has a lot of support inside the conference. So what happens here?
SCOTT: He does, but he also has some popularity issues. I mean, Jim Jordan has been a bit of a firebrand in the GOP. He's moved a little more to the center the past few months.
But he's upset many Republicans in how he handled things in January, and some haven't forgotten that. The reality is there are moderate, more centrist Republicans, who are in districts that Biden won. And they're concerned about what they put forward and who they put forward to lead the GOP as they try to figure out if they're going to be able to keep the House in the next election.
MATTINGLY: Yes. There's 18 of them in Biden-won districts, and they're the reason that Kevin McCarthy was speaker for 246 days. All right. Guys, stay with us. We've got a lot more to get to. We're
going to continue to follow all the twists and turns here in the Capitol all morning.
We're also following other news, including a mass shooting on the campus of Morgan State University in Baltimore. Those details coming in overnight.
HARLOW: Also happening now, the biggest healthcare worker strike in U.S. history has just begun. Tens of thousands of Kaiser Permanente employees will strike for three days at hundreds of locations across the country in an effort to get better pay, higher staffing levels and guaranteed performance bonuses. Much more on what that means for hospitals nationwide.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Kevin McCarthy, where is Kevin? There is my Kevin.
Kevin called me in the heat of battle, right, Kevin?
Who is Kevin McCarthy, the great Kevin McCarthy?
We have -- we have a great man, and he's going to be, hopefully, a great speaker in the House. We've got to get him there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: Donald Trump did help get Kevin McCarthy there, but McCarthy worked for it. We all remember that trip to Mar-a-Lago McCarthy made to patch things up with Trump after criticizing him in the wake of the January 6th attack on the Capitol.
But now, the man once affectionately dubbed "my Kevin" finds himself "ousted Kevin."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you support Matt Gaetz's efforts to remove McCarthy as speaker?
TRUMP: I don't know anything about those efforts, but I like both of them very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: That was on Sunday, but just yesterday --
MATTINGLY: I don't know the guy!
HARLOW: But after the vote to remove McCarthy as speaker, Congressman Matt Gaetz suggested he may have had the former president's backing. Listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GAETZ: My conversations with the former president leave me with great confidence that I'm doing the right thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: The only official comment on this from Trump was on Truth Social. Quote, "Why is it that Republicans are always fighting among themselves? Why aren't they fighting the radical left Democrats who are destroying the country?" closed quote.
Let's bring back in Lauren Fox, Kasie Hunt and Eugene Scott. I mean, the sound says it all.
FOX: Yes. The question I actually was trying to get in right after that was, Did you talk to the president, former president, today? And he did not answer that question.
HARLOW: He doesn't have any shot today.
FOX: Exactly. I mean, I think one of the biggest questions right now are these right-wing hard-liners did this, and they didn't have an alternative. There was no plan. There was no game for here's how we're going to play this out.
It was just, We don't like McCarthy. We're getting rid of McCarthy.
And I think that, as much as we're talking about this place descending into chaos and why they're not going to come back today and try to figure this out, the reality is if they did that right this moment they would have a 15-round speaker race. Because there is no Plan B.
You know, we are talking about a couple of candidates. We're talking about Steve Scalise, Kevin Hern, Jim Jordan. The question just becomes, what do you do for the next couple of days to start to lock down votes?
That work is already beginning for Steve Scalise and his team. They know how to win leadership races. They have done this before. They know how to fundraise. That's also another dynamic here.
Kevin McCarthy was a prolific fundraiser, liked that life, knew how to do it, know how to dime (ph) for dollars.
[06:20:07]
There's a question about the other people in this race. Do they know how to do that? And can they put a team together to get the votes to try to lock things down?
That's why I think Steve Scalise has such an advantage here. And he made clear yesterday when he was asked if he'd be up for the job that he feels great.
MATTINGLY: It's always fascinating when the dog catches the car or, in this case, the car stops, the dog runs smack into it and, like, breaks its muzzle and several other bones.
The question I have, Trump's resistance to weigh in on this is not subtle. He holds enormous sway over a significant portion of the House Republican conference, more so than he does in the Senate. He has power there. But in the House he can control things. He can move things around. When does he get involved explicitly, do you think?
HUNT: Well, I think my understanding from talking to sources is just that the calculation was that Trump didn't see anything in it for him, one way or the other.
So I think he was kind of telling everybody what they wanted to hear behind the scenes. Gaetz obviously heard what he thought he wanted to hear from the former president.
McCarthy's team didn't seem to send any signals that they were unhappy with what the former president was doing.
And on the campaign side, it seems like he's just like, man, this was -- I'm going to kind of stay out of this.
I don't know that he necessarily needs to have a dog in this fight, as long as he's not unhappy with whoever the choice may be. I mean, I do think it's going to be interesting if he weighs in and says, you know, I want Jim Jordan to be speaker of the House. That could obviously change the conversation up here pretty quickly.
But you know, I will say, I think there was a lot of speculation and, you know, when we covered this when he had those 15 rounds, when McCarthy was trying to get the speaker's gavel. And then you tie that back to what happened on January 6th and the way McCarthy really switched. You showed that photo of him at Mar-a-Lago just days after the Capitol was attacked.
I think there was a perception that Trump was going to try to prevent McCarthy from ever becoming speaker. And that did not come to pass here.
So you know, I do think, also, Trump is -- like, he knows how to affect what they do here by throwing bombs into it. Right? The number of times that Paul Ryan had to get on the phone with the White House and say, Hey, I really need your help here. Please fix this.
So we'll see if he continues in that vein.
HARLOW: You made an interesting point before this, that McCarthy, in your view, didn't extend an olive branch he could have to more conservative Democrats. But you really think this could have saved him, that they would have gone their own way and tried to come in to save him?
SCOTT: Probably not. But it certainly hurt him when you look at how he handled the past week. Moving forward --
HARLOW: The comments he made about Democrats last Sunday. SCOTT: Yes, in terms of the shutdown, blaming them for saying that
almost happened. The impeachment inquiry. Moving forward with that really pissed the Democrats off.
Just days after so many of them tried to figure out how they were going to find a way to not have to force so many individuals who would suffer if a shutdown happened from finding themselves in a fate.
And McCarthy didn't say anything to them that led them to believe that they could trust him. And that's why you had some leaders like Jayapal saying, We just don't trust him, and questioning his character.
MATTINGLY: All right. Eugene, Kasie, Lauren, thank you guys very much. So much to dig into on this. We will throughout the course of the morning.
Also happening today, former President Donald Trump says he'll be back in court for another day of his civil trial in New York City. He says he will testify at some point.
Plus, why the judge rebuked him and handed down a gag order. We'll have more next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[06:27:23]
HARLOW: All right. As we join you from the nation's capital this morning, a live look at Trump Tower in New York City.
In a few hours, former President Trump says he's going to go back to court. Day three of his civil fraud trial will begin this morning.
For the first two days of trial, Trump has repeatedly attacked both the attorney general, Letitia James of New York, and the judge, who is now imposing a gag order on Trump for targeting his clerk in a social media post.
Meanwhile, Trump is saying he plans to testify, but it could be several weeks before he is called to take the stand.
Our Brynn Gingras following it all live outside the courthouse with more.
There are so many things to get to, Brynn. The fact that the judge decides in this case. Now he's got a gag order on Trump. Trump says he's going to take the stand. I am dying to know what his lawyers think about all of that.
But walk us through this mandated order, on a very serious note, to keep Trump quiet after this -- after what he posted about the judge's clerk.
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Poppy, you know, it was super interesting, because after lunch yesterday, the court was sort of delayed. And everybody was kind of wondering what was taking so long.
But when the judge went to the bench, he issued this strong rebuke right at the defense table, where the former president was sitting with his attorneys.
And it was in response to a Truth Social post that Donald Trump had posted, with a picture of Judge Engoron's clerk and Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer. And in the post claiming, without any evidence, that she is Schumer's girlfriend.
Now there's no clear connection of the relationship, if anything, past that picture at this point.
But the judge, someone who has been attacked by Trump many times throughout the course of this trial and before, this was a bridge too far. He essentially said that he asked it be taken down. It was. But he says that was before it was sent to millions of people via email.
And he said, "Personal attacks of any member of my court staff are unacceptable, inappropriate, and I will not tolerate them."
He says now that the defense cannot talk publicly, cannot email, cannot post about anyone on his staff, or there are going to be serious sanctions as a result.
Now, listen, it's very unclear exactly what he means by that, because he didn't issue a formal order. However, when court was over, everyone was called back in the courtroom, as far as the defense and the state's attorneys, without the press in there. And there was a conversation to be had before the president [SIC] left -- former president left for the day.
MATTINGLY: Brynn, it's a fascinating decision, given I think Trump has pictures with Hillary Clinton and many other people, as well, if he wants to play that game going forward. But I want to follow up on what Poppy was saying.
HARLOW: At his wedding.
MATTINGLY: Yes, at his wedding.
HARLOW: Just saying.
MATTINGLY: Glass houses and all that.
HARLOW: Yes.
MATTINGLY: The idea that Trump says he's going to testify, he said it in the past.
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