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Congress Paralyzed as House GOP Scrambles to Find Next Speaker; House in Chaos After Rep. Kevin McCarthy's (R-CA) Ouster, Next Steps Uncertain. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired October 04, 2023 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: For the very first time ever, Republicans have successfully ousted a sitting speaker.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Kevin McCarthy only serving for 269 days, his speakership undone by eight rebel Republicans.

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): This represents the ripping off of the band- aid. That's what we need to do to get back on track.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): I do not regret negotiating. The government is designed to find compromise.

REP. BYRON DONALDS (R-FL): The era of leadership control over everything in this building is definitely over.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): They're in total disarray. They need time to figure out what's next.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the American public understands what we're doing and I think they fully support it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: President Biden is going to aim to strike a tone of business as usual.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The House cannot do anything until there is a speaker who is elected here.

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PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning from Washington, D.C. We are live outside the Capitol. The House of Representatives is paralyzed after Kevin McCarthy became the first speaker in the history of the chamber to be removed. That means Congress can't do its job for the American people and nobody is running the show, at least not officially or formally, with just weeks left to prevent a government shutdown.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The office of speaker of the house of the United States House of Representatives is hereby declared vacant.

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POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: What a moment. The House has been plunged into unprecedented chaos at a critical moment for our nation. Republicans are now scrambling to find a new leader after a rebellion of just eight members led by Matt Gaetz was able to topple McCarthy.

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MCCARTHY: In today's world, if you're sitting in Congress, and you took a gamble to make sure government was still open and eight people can throw you out as speaker, and the Democrats who said they wanted to keep government open, I think you have got a real divide. I think you have got a real institutional problem.

That is not a government that works. That is chaotic.

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HARLOW: And it is still anybody's guess this morning who might succeed McCarthy. Some names that are emerging include House Judiciary Chairman Jim Jordan and Majority Leader Steve Scalise, Kevin Hern's name also out there.

Our Congressional Correspondent Lauren Fox is here with us. Lauren, good morning to you. No speaker, never happened, where do we go?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Historic times, uncharted territory. We are in a place where the future of what is going to happen on the floor is uncertain, where we don't know who the next speaker of the House is going to be, and a large question is looming, what does this mean for Republicans' ability to keep their majority in 2024.

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FOX (voice over): Former house speaker Kevin McCarthy vowing not to run for speaker again after an unprecedented vote Tuesday plunging the House of Representatives into chaos.

MCCARTHY: Unfortunately, 4 percent of our conference can join all the Democrats and dictate who can be the Republican speaker in this House. I don't think that rule is good for the institution, but, apparently, I'm the only one.

FOX: The motion to vacate was filed by Representative Matt Gaetz who, along with seven other GOP members, voted to oust the speaker. With Democrats' votes, the motion passed 216-210.

REP. AUSTIN SCOTT (R-GA): Those eight people are anarchists and they are chaos caucus members. FOX: McCarthy's speakership was the third shortest in history and was plagued with GOP infighting over spending cuts, border security and providing aid to Ukraine.

MCCARTHY: You all know Matt Gaetz. You know it was personal. It had nothing to do about spending.

GAETZ: Speaker McCarthy's time is over. I wish him well. I have no personal animus to him. I hope he finds fruitful pastures.

FOX: Now, the race is on for House Republicans to elect a new speaker as another possible government shutdown is 44 days away.

REP. MATT ROSENDALE (R-MT): What I'd like you to take away from it is I'm tired of being lectured by people that have been here for decades, okay, and have put us in $33 trillion in debt.

FOX: Several names have emerged as possible contenders for speaker, including House Majority Leader Steve Scalise. Scalise has already started reaching out to members, gauging a possible bid for the role.

REP. ELVIRA SALAZAR (R-FL): No one really knows who has the votes.

[07:05:00]

So, now, we're going to go through that exercise right now and see who has our support.

FOX: Another possible name floated is House Judiciary Chairman Jim Jordan.

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): I thought it was unfair to Kevin. He was a good man, and he didn't deserve this, in my judgment.

RAJU: Will you run for speaker?

JORDAN: That's a decision for the conference.

FOX: One person not interested in the job is Gaetz.

REPORTER: Are you putting yourself forward for the speakership?

GAETZ: Absolutely not. I have no desire to be speaker.

FOX: McCarthy, for his part, says he has no regrets about his tenure as speaker.

MCCARTHY: I don't regret standing up for choosing governing over grievance. It is my responsibility. It is my job.

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FOX (on camera): And as you can expect, there is palpable frustration within the Republican rank and file as many members believed that Kevin McCarthy was doing as good of a job as anyone could. And the reality is if they keep the current rules package that they have, which hardliners probably going to insist on, the next speaker is going to be dealing with the exact same problems that McCarthy faced.

MATTINGLY: All right. Lauren Fox, you have a lot of work to do the next couple of weeks, for sure. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Joining us is one of the Republicans who supported Kevin McCarthy, Congressman Michael Lawler of New York. Congressman, I appreciate your time this morning.

Not exactly a joyous time in the building behind us or necessarily within your conference. I think my quest ion right now is try to get a sense of what the landscape is. Do you have somebody in mind now that Speaker McCarthy has taken himself out to be the next leader of the conference?

REP. MICHAEL LAWLER (R-NY): I do. But I think there will be a lot of questions that have to be answered by all potential candidates.

MATTINGLY: Who?

LAWLER: I'm not going to say it publicly. But I think -- first and foremost, I think there needs to be a reckoning within the conference. There needs to be accountability for the eight individuals who selfishly upended our House majority and put their own interests above the country, above the conference, and above the institution behind us.

MATTINGLY: What does accountability look like?

LAWLER: To me, in my personal opinion, they need to lose their committee assignments and there needs to be consideration as to whether or not they're even part of the conference.

We had House Republican Conference rules that require a majority of a majority before bringing the motion to vacate to the floor. The fact that these eight individuals teamed up with AOC, Ilhan Omar, Jamaal Bowman, who pulled the fire alarm the other day, to upend a vote, and Hakeem Jeffries, is disgraceful and it's wrong.

The American people elected a House Republican majority to serve as a check and balance on the Biden agenda. They have torpedoed the work that we were doing. They talked about the need to spend single subject spending bills. They have delayed that indefinitely and, frankly, be put whoever the next speaker in a very precarious situation to negotiate with Chuck Schumer and the White House.

And so, as far as I'm concerned, I want to know from any potential speaker how they intend to deal with those eight, number one. Number two, I want to understand what they did to support Kevin McCarthy, whether or not they stood up and fought for Kevin McCarthy and our majority. I also want to understand how they intend to deal with House rules going forward. This motion to vacate needs to go.

MATTINGLY: But do you think there's a rules package that doesn't include that, that could get -- you need the votes for that as well.

LAWLER: This motion to vacate of one person disrupting the entire House and holding everybody hostage, it needs to go. It is not a workable situation.

Kevin McCarthy did a phenomenal job as speaker, and he was severely underestimated time and again by the media, by the Democrats and, frankly, by Republicans. And he delivered on a lot.

But you had a handful of people, for petty personal reasons, who decided their interests mattered more than the country. And I think it's disgusting and I think the rules need to be relooked at.

MATTINGLY: Do you think that your preference currently unstated for the next speaker of the House can get 218 votes or can get the majority?

LAWLER: I will fight like heck to get that person to do it, because I think this country needs to move in a different direction.

MATTINGLY: But you fought for McCarthy too and he's gone.

LAWLER: I did. And you know what --

MATTINGLY: That's not an indictment of you. I'm just trying to figure out the dynamics of your conference.

LAWLER: Look, Kevin McCarthy earned the speakership. He earned my support. He earned the support of the overwhelming majority of our conference. He's a good man who fought for this country, who did the right thing. The reason he's removed is because he did the right thing by keeping government open.

[07:10:03]

Think about how absurd that is. Think about what a disgrace that is, that he would be removed from the speakership because he did not want to allow government to shutdown.

That's where we are in our country right now. And I think the question moving forward is, how do we fight for conservative principles, conservative ideas but understand the reality? I have people in my conference who didn't seem to grasp the fact we're in a divided government that seriously thought that if we just yelled loud enough that we want $1.471 trillion in discretionary spending, that it will happen? It's a joke.

MATTINGLY: But those people are still in your conference and they have still made clear that top line level is what they want. My broader question, as I've watched this all play out, has been nothing is going to change.

LAWLER: I think it's incumbent on the conference to change it, not any one individual. And I've been saying that for weeks that the conference needed to push back forcefully. This was not on the speaker alone to do it. And I think it's important now that we're in this situation, whoever the next speaker is, is going to have to deal with this head on. And I think as far as I'm concerned for my vote, that's going to matter. MATTINGLY: You're a majority-maker, the reason why Kevin McCarthy got to be speaker of the House with a slim majority. What do you tell constituents back home in terms of what you guys are accomplish, how governance is going right now?

LAWLER: Look, in New York we have one-party rule. Democrats have created an absolute mess. We have an affordability crisis. We have a crisis at our southern border, a migrant crisis that Eric Adams says is destroying New York City, that Kathy Hochul just the other day said there's no more room at the inn, we need to stop the influx at the border.

The American people elected a Republican majority because of the ideas, because of the policies, because the Democratic policies have failed miserably. So, what we need to do is show we are worthy of that trust and support, show that we can actually govern.

MATTINGLY: Have you?

LAWLER: It means we have -- up until this week, yes.

And I think the American people expect us to quickly choose a speaker and get back to work. They're not interested in the petty partisan divide. They're not interested in the internal grievances. They're interested in us advancing the ball forward.

We have a lot of work to do between now and November 17th to reduce spending in this country. Joe Biden increased spending by $5 trillion in two years. It is unsustainable. You look at a state like New York, my home state, $9 billion budget deficit next year, $13 billion the year after, a $36 billion revenue shortfall. This is unsustainable across the country.

And If we don't get serious about reining in spending, if we don't deal with the migrant crisis at our southern border and stop the open border policies, the sanctuary city policies, the right to shelter that somehow is being interpreted to mean that if you're a migrant, you automatically get free housing, free health care, free education, all at taxpayer expense, this is absurdity and it needs to stop and we need to get serious about these challenges.

MATTINGLY: And it's worth noting because also we weren't able to coalesce behind a border bill that had been attached to the C.R. because of where your conference is, one of the many challenges to you guys going forward. Congressman Mike Lawler, I appreciate it. Thank you.

LAWLER: Thank you.

HARLOW: All right. We are also going to speak to one of the eight Republicans who voted to oust Speaker McCarthy. Congressman Tim Burchett will join us in minutes.

Plus this --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Donald, are you coming back tomorrow?

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: I'll be back tomorrow, good day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: It's true. The former president will be back in a New York City courtroom for day three of his civil fraud trial. We're going to why the judge rebuked him and handed down a gag order.

Stay with us.

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HARLOW: Welcome back. It is a beautiful sunny morning in the nation's capital, but things are not functioning. We are coming to you live from Washington where there is no speaker of the House for the first time in history and the Republican Party has no clear leader here.

John Harris from Politico this morning writing, quote, the house GOP now resembles a failed state. The party elects leaders with no capacity to lead members who have no interest in being led. What was the guy's name again? No need to commit it to memory, that's what Google is for.

MATTINGLY: It's harsh but fairly true. The Wall Street Journal Editorial Board writes, quote, a band eight Republicans succeeded in ousting Kevin McCarthy as House speaker on Tuesday and we trust they're happy. They now have the chaos they wanted, though it isn't clear what else they hope to achieve. Their clever plan seems to be to cut off their own heads. HARLOW: Here with us now for reaction, their thoughts, their

reporting CNN Congressional Correspondent Lauren Fox is with us, CNN Political Analyst Laura Barron-Lopez and former press adviser to former Speaker John Boehner, Maura Gillespie. Thank you all for being here.

Maura, let's start with you. So, it went the whole way this time. But Boehner faced a similar moment. It wasn't brought to the floor, right? But he faced the rebellion. He lasted a couple of months and then leaves. Your thoughts as we watch this going full force today and where it leaves us. I mean, you worked for him, right? You are a conservative who believes in the cause and now there is no speaker of the House.

MAURA GILLESPIE, FORMER DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF TO FORMER REP. ADAM KINZINGER: It's a really different situation when John Boehner was retiring. He'd want to retire before it all happened in 2015 when Eric Cantor lost his primary to David Brat. Boehner realized he had to stick around for a little longer, but he had always intended to retire by the end of the year. So, it is a little bit different.

But Democrats were not here when the vote was called back when Boehner was there because they were up for Mario Cuomo's funeral. So, it's a bit different situation, right? But it is hard for me to sit here and not think about the times I spent walking up to this building with awe and reverence and appreciation for this building.

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It makes you really question where we are right now in terms of our government, our politics. I mean, I thought January 6th was rock bottom. This may be rock bottom. We had a congressman who is accused of sleeping with a minor, who is under an ethics investigation, just made history last night by ousting the speaker of his own party with the help of Democrats, and he ran to the cameras to go fundraise off of it, and has no plan.

And I think we kind of needed to look at that situation and be like, where are we now? Where do we go from here? We have got President Trump, who is four times indicted, 91 federal counts against him, and he is running for re-election another time against a president who is, quite frankly, like struggling just to get one foot in front of the other. Like how is this where we are right now in Congress?

I can't help but think back with my time with Boehner and wished that we had some adults in the room because this feels like rock bottom.

MATTINGLY: Laura, I think what's interesting, the adults aren't here anymore, if you want to use your kind of framing of things, because of exactly what actually came to fruition yesterday. The cover of the books, the Young Guns, Eric Cantor lost a primary, Boehner -- Boehner was not a young gun. Paul Ryan decided to leave because he's just kind of over it, and Kevin McCarthy now has been deposed as well. The entire generation of new Republicanism that was supposed to take over the mantle is gone, and what they've been replaced with -- the House is always a messy institution, but this is a different level.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It is a different level. And part of why they're gone, Paul Ryan also wasn't really able to manage this growing extreme faction within the House GOP and Boehner wasn't either. And so that's why Paul Ryan is gone. He now talks about that he doesn't always agree with the direction his party is headed in, he doesn't support the standard-bearer, Donald Trump, would prefer someone else to be at the top of the presidential ticket.

But when push comes to shove, Kevin McCarthy decided to, time and time again, make decisions that emboldened that hard right faction and decided to make it so they could only have one person bring the motion to vacate.

And even yesterday during his meeting with the caucus -- or the conference when he decided to say, I'm not going to run for speaker again, the fact that he said, I'm not going to sell my soul to the Democrats pretty much shows that he was far more willing to, time and again, do what the extreme Republicans wanted versus even just negotiate a little bit with Democrats to stay in the speakership.

FOX: One thing that strikes me is that the eight people who voted to oust Kevin McCarthy were the same people who, on Friday, when the speaker was offering them, and not every single member, but it's generally the same group of people, who, when the speaker was offering them the short-term spending bill with 30 percent cuts over domestic spending areas --

MATTINGLY: And border security.

FOX: -- didn't take it, border security.

HARLOW: And now Ukraine.

FOX: I could not have thought of a more conservative short-term spending bill. They said no to it. What other choice does the speaker have? And his allies have been arguing he wanted to keep the government open. He wasn't willing to shut down the government knowing that to get out of a shutdown, he was going to just have to have a short-term spending bill that the chamber across the way, the United States Senate, was going to pick up and take.

HARLOW: And we talked about this before, but for people who are just joining us, what do they need to know this morning about what this now, for the first time in American history no speaker of the House? They're gone for a week now and they're going to come back and maybe figure it out. What does that mean if there is a crisis in this country, if there's a disaster in terms of how paralyze this is?

FOX: Yes. I mean, there's a couple of things we know and a lot of things we don't. One of the things we know is that Patrick McHenry, who is the interim speaker at the moment, he has very limited power. Basically, he can run a speaker's race. That is what he can do on the floor of the House. They can't pass legislation. They can't avoid a government shutdown.

There are some open questions about how committees function, if they can function. Technically, I think the answer is, no, they cannot. But then you had people, like Comer, saying yesterday that he wants to continue fighting to investigate for the impeachment inquiry. So, there's a lot of unanswered questions.

And it's a very strange spot to be in, having covered this institution for nearly a decade now, and not know the answer to every single question, but I think there's a lot of parliamentarian --

HARLOW: I don't mean to put you on the spot.

FOX: No, there's a lot of parliamentarian experts inside this building who are going to be looking through their notes to understand whether or not they can do X, Y, or Z because we are in an unprecedented moment, we are in a historic place right now.

And I just think it bears reminding the American people that there's a lot of smart people here but we don't know what's going to happen next.

MATTINGLY: Yes. It was our institution fact wizard, Kristen Wilson, who is sending over that McHenry is technically not in the line of succession right now because he's pro tempore, that he cannot even adjourn the House without Senate consent if it's for more than three days.

[07:25:06]

It's a very weird period.

What do they want? Laura makes the most critical point here. They offered a top line that was a dramatic 30 percent cut to a C.R. and a dramatically conservative border security bill and no Ukraine aid, and they voted -- they wouldn't do it. What do these eight lawmakers want? What are their principles? What are their driving forces from the conservative side?

GILLESPIE: They want to have something to fight against. That's what they know how to do. It's what the MAGA Republicans have done before they were MAGA Republicans, right? We were the Republican Senate committee when John Boehner was in the speakership. They moved the goal post. He gives them what they want, they move the goal post because it doesn't serve their purpose. They don't actually have a plan. If they were put in charge, if they were given real leadership positions, they would not know the first thing to do with themselves.

So, it's easier to fight the fight and fight the man and fundraise off of that, what you're seeing. Nancy Mace had her whole statement with a fundraising email. Matt Gaetz has been fundraising all weekend with his media blitz.

HARLOW: Nancy Mace -- I don't if we have that sound or we might not at this time, but Nancy Mace also had very specific reasons as to why she voted the way she did. Kevin McCarthy did not follow through on her rape kit bill, et cetera, things that she had promised.

GILLESPIE: With a big donate now, donate here.

HARLOW: I'm aware she fundraised off of that. I just wanted to point out why she said --

GILLESPIE: But I think people are frustrated they're not getting anything done because everyone is coming into Congress thinking that if I don't get my way 100 percent of the time, I'm not going for it. That's not why we send members of Congress to go do. They have to work across the aisle. They have to work with their fellow members.

And to continue to vote for people and put people in power that are solely there for themselves and looking out for number one and that's it, shame on us. We need to vote in our primaries. We need to get involved because this is what we are left with, an empty speaker's office.

HARLOW: It's just so interesting because I think what our kids come home -- my son comes home from kindergarten and talks about having to work out fights with his -- how the teacher tells them to figure it out together, compromise, and that's kindergarten.

We have got to go, guys. Thank you very, very much.

Republican Congressman Tim Burchett voting to oust Kevin McCarthy from his speakership, saying McCarthy, quote, belittled his faith in a phone conversation the two of them had. McCarthy addressed that last night.

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MCCARTHY: I personally like Tim Burchett and I called Tim Burchett because I read his quote. And Tim Burchett, he's a friend of mine, which I'm kind of shocked by this.

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HARLOW: Congressman Tim Burchett here with us live, next.

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