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Rep. Tim Burchett (R-TN) Says McCarthy Mocked His Pre-Vote Prayer Session; Judge Issues Gag Order And Rebukes Trump In New York Fraud Trial; Aid To Ukraine In Limbo After McCarthy Ousted As Speaker. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired October 04, 2023 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[07:31:28]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Well, welcome back. We are live outside of the Capitol on a beautiful morning here in Washington. But the House is paralyzed -- plunged into chaos. Congressman Kevin McCarthy now ousted as House Speaker, a first in American history.

Eight of his fellow Republicans, including Congressman Tim Burchett, decided it was time for him to go. Burchett said he ultimately voted against McCarthy after the speaker -- former speaker mocked his decision to pray over whether to oust him -- listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): He just basically said something that I thought belittled me and my belief system and, you know, I -- that pretty much sealed it with me right there. I thought that showed the character of the man. I said to him during the conversation I wish you hadn't waited until right now to call me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Well, McCarthy addressed Burchett's claims during a news conference last night. Here is that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): I personally like Tim Burchett. And I called Tim Burchett because I read his quote. And Tim Burchett is a friend of mine, which I am kind of shocked by this. And Tim Burchett, in his quote, said he's leaning towards no -- he was on CNN -- but I'm going to pray about it.

And so I pick up the phone and call him because I didn't think he was already there. I said, Tim, I read your quote. You said you were going to pray about it. I wanted to talk to you about it.

And somehow he construes that -- I'm a Christian. I'm not going to offend somebody for it. I simply read his quote back. I thought there was still an opening and I wanted to talk to him about it. He never mentioned anything when we were communicating like that. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Well, Congressman Tim Burchett joins us now. We appreciate you being here.

BURCHETT: Thanks for having me.

HARLOW: All right. So now you've heard McCarthy saying his version of what happened on the call. As you hear that, would that have changed your vote, sir?

BURCHETT: Probably not. I -- heck, I've got a recording of what was said. It was -- it --

HARLOW: Oh, you recorded it?

BURCHETT: It was just -- but it was between us. And -- but the conversation went on in a -- in a belittling tone. It was everything I suggested.

I said, well, we -- you know, you told us you were going to bring term limits up. And he said, well, that went in committee. And then he -- I said we were out six weeks. We were out September 30 -- comes around every time, basically. I'm paraphrasing everything. And it was always well, that was -- that was Scalise or that was somebody else, or whatever.

And I -- you know, we need leadership. I don't need excuses.

We are -- we are $33 trillion in debt. We take in $5 trillion. We spend $7 trillion.

We continue with these continued resolutions. And every -- and then we pass one for 30 days. And then they told me the last time -- they said, well, let's pass this 30-day one so we won't pass another one. And I said that's like telling a heroin addict I'm going to give you heroin to get you off of heroin. It doesn't work that way.

We are spending our great-grandchildren's money. We're $33 trillion in debt. And these excuses just -- you know, I just -- we need a strong leader and I felt like we weren't getting that. And that was just the -- I guess that just pushed me over the edge of what I felt like was condescending of what I was saying.

I pray about it. I do. I pray about everything. I -- because God's done me pretty -- he's been pretty good to me. He's given me a wonderful wife and a daughter and I'm incredibly blessed.

There's not a lot Tim Burchetts in Congress. I don't come from money. I'm not a sports star. I'm not a Navy SEAL. I'm not, you know -- I'm just a guy that just got lucky I guess in life.

But I do pray about things. And so, I didn't take that decision lightly. I prayed about it since it started coming up, and I just asked God to show me what to do.

[07:35:03]

And I really had two decisions to make. I had to go, am I going to go with my friend, Kevin McCarthy, who I felt like hasn't followed through with a lot of things that he said he was going to do, or am I going to trust my conscience? And ultimately, my conscience won out and that's how I voted.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: In terms of the path forward, I want to get to that in a second. But just, do you always record phone calls with the Speaker of the House?

BURCHETT: No -- no, I don't. It was just one of those --

MATTINGLY: Why did you choose this one?

BURCHETT: It was just one of those random things because I was in the middle of a meeting with other people and I just said let's record it. And so, I've got it just in case I needed it. And -- because a lot of times when you're talking to somebody you have trouble remembering exactly what you said, especially in a -- in their -- when you're in a lot of pressure. And it's legal.

And so it was just one of those things I did, and I'm glad I did. I'm not going to do anything with it.

MATTINGLY: That's what I was going to ask. You plan on sharing it?

BURCHETT: No, no, no. I wasn't doing that. It was for my personal benefit so I could go back and listen. If I made a commitment or if I said something out of line, I want to know.

MATTINGLY: In terms of the path forward -- you know, you were talking about kind of the two options that you were praying over trying to figure out which way to go. The option you chose doesn't have an endgame or an outcome explicitly right now.

BURCHETT: Well, it --

MATTINGLY: What should that be?

BURCHETT: Yeah.

MATTINGLY: Who should that be?

BURCHETT: I think we're going to -- we're going to see that.

But the good thing about it is we have a very deep bench. We've got Roger Williams out of Texas. Jodey Arrington out of Texas. Elise Stefanik, Tom Emmer. My buddy Steve Scalise who I know is calling around folks who I've talked to. Mark Green out of Tennessee.

Our bench is so deep, and I feel like we've got a lot of leaders that are willing to step up and now they are.

And honestly, since we made that vote -- and I know folks are getting on the news and railing on me and all these other folks, but I just left the gym, and I've talked to several people this morning alone who did not vote with us but have conceded that they probably should have and are glad that they did. Glad that -- what we did because they think we need to make a change.

HARLOW: I want to give you a chance to respond. We just had Republican Congressman -- your colleague -- Mike Lawler on from New York.

BURCHETT: From New York.

HARLOW: Here is what he said about the eight who voted to oust McCarthy, so that would include you. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): They need to lose their committee assignments and there needs to be consideration as to whether or not they are even part of the conference. You had a handful of people for petty, personal reasons who decided that their interests mattered more than the country. And I think it's disgusting, and I think the rules need to be relooked at.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: He also said that you guys need to be held accountable.

BURCHETT: Sure, well (ph) --

HARLOW: What do you say?

BURCHETT: I represent my district, and I'm voting the way my district would like me to do.

HARLOW: You're also part of the body.

BURCHETT: I'm also part of the body. But when it's all over with -- Lyndon Johnson said, you want a friend in Washington, get a dog. I have three of them. They're all at home -- Charlie, Buzz, and Roscoe -- but they're not up here.

And Mike, he's from -- he's from New York, and he has a different set of values than I do. He's my friend, and he has his right to his opinion. But the truth is they did the same thing to Marjorie Taylor Greene, and it sure didn't hurt her much. And I just -- that's -- there's a lot of angry people. But I would submit to you when we get this -- when we get new leadership in we're going to be just fine.

HARLOW: When's that --

MATTINGLY: I --

HARLOW: Go ahead.

MATTINGLY: No. I just --

HARLOW: Interested when that's going to be, sir. MATTINGLY: Yeah.

BURCHETT: Tuesday -- Tuesday we'll have orientation -- not orientation. They're going to have the speeches. It's kind of like student council. They'll give their speeches and then -- but it's sort of like on the floor. By the time something gets to the floor, you know, it's already decided.

MATTINGLY: Well, that's what I was going to ask. You said you'd spoken to Steve Scalise.

BURCHETT: Yeah.

MATTINGLY: Is he somebody you'd prefer? What's his pitch?

BURCHETT: I love Steve Scalise. He's a great leader, he's a proven leader, and I believe folks would rally around him. And -- but as I told him, at this time, I'm not going to commit to you. I want to hear what other people have to say. It's just -- there might be some dark horse that gets in it that shows that we -- maybe that's the direction we need to go now. But Steve would be an excellent choice.

And that's the good thing about it. We have no shortage. But -- and a lot of these folks, they weren't -- they couldn't act because of their positions and now they are. And I think it's going to -- it's going to prove good for the -- good -- it's going to be great for the country, actually.

Because as my friend -- you know, he said that -- he got on to me but we're $33 trillion in debt. We take in $5 trillion every year, and we spend $7 trillion. And that's conservative estimates. To me, that's not leadership. We've got to make some tough decisions.

And when my friend AOC -- and she is my friend -- when she says we've got a -- we've got a fiscal issue, I think this time we could all get together and work on something. And I'm all for that.

And, you know -- and the 15 or so of us that were opposed to all this in the beginning, I asked for membership -- leadership to meet with us. Nothing happened.

[07:40:06]

This is the way Washington works. They cram something down your throat. They cram these continued resolutions because they've greased their special interests in the lobbyists, and that's why nothing happened. Nothing changes and we get further and further in debt.

MATTINGLY: Congressman --

BURCHETT: I'm just calling it out.

MATTINGLY: -- Tim Burchett, we appreciate your time.

BURCHETT: Thanks for having me.

MATTINGLY: A busy time at that. Thank you very much.

HARLOW: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Well, former President Trump says he will be back in court today after a judge issued a gag order because of some of Trump's social media posts.

HARLOW: Also today, more than 75,000 health care workers from Kaiser Permanente are going on strike. What they're fighting for and how all of this could impact you. That is next.

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HARLOW: All right. So these are live pictures of health care workers on the picket line in Virginia. Kaiser Permanente employees are beginning what is set to be the largest health care strike in U.S. history. More than 75,000 workers planning to join those picket lines for a 3-day walkout.

The strike includes nurses, radiology and x-ray technicians, ultrasound, stenographers, and hundreds of other positions whose top concerns are a staffing crisis that is affecting the quality of patient care, as well as pay increases.

[07:45:06]

The health care system provides care for nearly 13 million people across those eight states you see on your screen. But their patients are not simply being abandoned. About 60 percent of the staffers are still working.

We'll keep you posted on this significant strike.

MATTINGLY: Well, also this morning, in just a few hours, day three of former President Trump's civil fraud trial in New York City is set to resume. And Trump says he'll be back in court today after the judge imposed a gag order on him for attacking his clerk in a social media post Tuesday. Trump now says he's planning to testify at some point, but his long-time accountant will return to the stand.

CNN's Brynn Gingras is live for us in New York outside the courthouse. Brynn, it looks like the court -- like it takes a court-mandated order to keep Trump quiet. Do we feel like this is going to be sustainable over time?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Ah, Phil, has it ever? I don't really know. I mean, honestly, it's not all that surprising. Has it ever really kept him quiet? That's a great question. I don't know.

But I can tell you this. So, yesterday, when we returned from lunch and the courtroom reporters went inside that there was this big delay and everybody was wondering what was going on. And then the judge went to the bench and he essentially just issued this rebuke, staring straight at the defendant's table where the former president was sitting. And basically was talking about this Truth Social post that Donald

Trump has posted yesterday, and it was of the court clerk who sits right next to the judge. And it was a picture of her with Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer. And in that post, the former president essentially said that she was Schumer's girlfriend without any evidence to back that up. And it's very unclear what the relationship of those two even is past that picture.

So this was a bridge too far for the judge. And keep in mind the context here. This is a judge who not only is deciding the outcome of this case but also someone who Trump has attacked personally to him. So again, this was just too much.

And he basically said that this was disparing -- disparaging. It was untrue. It personally identified his clerk, which he didn't like. He asked that the post be deleted, which it was. But he says it was also emailed to millions of people and so that's why he issued this gag order.

And he said, quote, "Personal attacks of any member of" -- any court staff are unacceptable -- "of my court staff are unacceptable, inappropriate, and I will not tolerate them."

And he basically said no longer. You cannot post anything, email anything about my court staff or there are going to be some strict sanctions. What that means, it's still unclear.

We know that the lawyers all met behind closed doors without press inside that courtroom. So it's still to be determined what exactly he meant by that. But certainly, not mincing words on the bench there.

MATTINGLY: Yeah, absolutely.

Brynn Gingras, day three -- appreciate it. Thank you.

HARLOW: So the bipartisan short-term spending bill that McCarthy got passed over the weekend did not include aid for Ukraine. It also ultimately led to his ouster. But with the speakership vacant, what does this all mean for the funding that is needed for Ukraine? We're going to be joined by the former Defense secretary under President Trump. Mark Esper is here.

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[07:51:46]

HARLOW: The historic vote to oust Kevin McCarthy from his speakership further complicates the outlook for Congress providing more aid to Ukraine. Right now, the House is adjourned until next week. No legislation can be passed until a new speaker is elected. And this leaves President Biden's request for an additional $24 billion of aid to Ukraine in limbo.

It is estimated that Ukraine's current burn rate of weapons and munitions is nearly $2.5 billion a month. But U.S. aid -- that money is rapidly running out with about $5 billion remaining in what is known as a presidential drawdown authority that allows the rapid dispatch of weapons from existing stocks. It's essentially about two months' worth of money.

Joining us now to talk about that and a lot more is Mark Esper. He served as the Defense secretary under President Trump. Secretary Esper, it's good to have you. Thank you very much for being here.

MARK ESPER, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP (via Skype): Good morning.

HARLOW: There is not even a guarantee, by the way, that they come back in a little under a week and elect a speaker mid-next week, end of next week, right? And so, the question to you is what do you believe this will mean for the already difficult task of trying to get the House to pass more Ukraine aid?

ESPER: Right. Well, first, before we look forward, let's look backward a few days. And I think things look a lot better if you're Vladimir Putin sitting in Moscow. I mean, he sees a U.S. government that's dysfunctional right now that can't provide the aid that Ukraine needs. And, of course, if U.S. aid to Ukraine falls, we're like the -- we're like the big Jenga block at the bottom of the tower. You pull that out and a lot of other Western aid risks being lost as well.

And then, of course, you have a pro-Russian government in Kosovo -- in Serbia, I'm sorry -- amassing forces on the Kosovo border where the NATO troops are. You have a grain dispute between Poland and Ukraine. It just seems like the West is fracturing. So that's concern number one.

And then as you rightly said, if we look a few weeks ahead, will the Congress support the president's request for $24 billion? Yes, based on the numbers you said -- and U.S. support is actually a little bit less than $2 billion a month -- we could hold out for a -- for a few months. But who is picked next to be speaker will make a big difference in what happens with regard to Ukraine funding going forward.

HARLOW: Yeah.

MATTINGLY: Where do you think the gap has been in terms of -- there is a majority in both the House and the Senate that support more funding for Ukraine? That is unquestionably the case. It's I think why your point about who the next speaker is being important is so critical.

But there has been a shift away from support amongst the American public and certainly, amongst members of the Republican Party. Why? Is it just exhaustion? Is it that people don't have the bandwidth to continue it? What's your sense of why this has happened?

ESPER: Well, I think, Phil, over the last couple of months -- a few months -- if you look at successive votes on Ukrainian aid you'll see that an increasing number of Republicans in the House are opposing it --

MATTINGLY: Yeah.

ESPER: -- and that's not a good trendline.

Why is that? Look, I think a lot of it is driven by President Trump and this isolationist strain in their -- in the far-right wing of the party that says too much money going abroad. We should focus on things at home. We should focus on the border. And look, we should be focusing on the border. I think the time has come where even Democrats agree that we need border security. So -- but the two aren't mutually exclusive.

[07:55:00]

But I do think there is that isolationist strain in the Republican Party -- the far-right -- that is on the rise and driven by the presidential nomination process as well that's pulling people that way. And, of course, if Trump goes that way he pulls a lot of other members with him. He pulls his diehard supporters with him as well. And that's what's pulling us in that direction.

HARLOW: I do want to ask you about this fascinating, terrifying piece, in many respects, in The New York Times this morning that you're all over because you talked in your book about this. And the headline is "Trump Wanted to Fire Missiles at Mexico. Now the GOP Want to Send Troops."

In your book, you recount a conversation you had with former President Trump where you say that he asked you about firing patriot missiles into Mexico to take on the cartels and then trying to blame another country. Needless to say, you pushed back vehemently against that.

But as you read this piece in the Times -- it says, quote, "If Mr. Trump returns to the White House in 2025, he has vowed to push for the designations and to deploy Special Operations troops and naval forces to, as he puts it, declare war on the cartels."

It seems -- we've heard what DeSantis said in that CBS interview about what he would do as president.

What is your take on all of this from increasingly loud voices in your party?

ESPER: Well look, I think if you look at what was animating Trump at the time and many now is the fact that fentanyl continues to cross the border from the south. It's killing 100,000 Americans a year. It's terrible. And look, President Trump was concerned about that, as a lot of people are.

I did not think the right solution was attacking -- or attacking cartels in a neighboring country whose support we need, by the way, to deal not with just the drugs but with illegal immigration and a number of other things.

So I understand the sentiment but I don't think that's the right approach. I think -- in my view, we have a very good model, and I explained this at time -- at times to folks in the party -- and that was playing Colombia that we did in the early 2000s with the country of Colombia where DOD played a supporting role providing helicopters and other aviation, special forces doing training.

And together, working with the Colombian government, we really made a big dent in to not just the guerilla movement down there but also the drug trade. And to me, that's the malrigo (PH). I've seen varying expressions of this need or want to use the military. Some have spoken more about what I'm describing. Others have taken a more aggressive approach, like President Trump.

But I think we need to look at the big picture. And the fact is we need Mexico's cooperation. We need to work with them, not around them.

MATTINGLY: All right, Mark Esper. We appreciate your time, sir. Thank you.

ESPER: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Well, even though a fellow Republican initiated the move to oust him, former speaker Kevin McCarthy is blaming Democrats, at least in part, for losing his leadership post.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCARTHY: I think today was a political decision by the Democrats. And I think -- I think the things they have done in the past hurt the institution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: The number-two Democrat in the House, Congresswoman Katherine Clark, joins us next. We're going to ask her where the House goes from here. Stay with us.

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