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House in Chaos After McCarthy's Ouster; Next Steps Uncertain; Scalise, Jordan Among Those Floated as Potential Speaker. Aired 8- 8:30a ET

Aired October 04, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:00:41]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An unprecedented moment in the history of the United States.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Office of Speaker of the House is hereby declared vacant.

REP. MATT GAETZ, (R-FL): Conversations with the former president leaves me great confidence that I'm doing the right thing.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA) FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: Political decision by the Democrats. My fear is, the institution sell to them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When a Speaker makes a promise to either side of the aisle, they ought to keep it.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: An election is expected next week. The jockey for the position, though, is already underway.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He graciously decided not to run again. I think that's a wise decision.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We lose all the four time and get the appropriations bills passed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The White House is trying to project an image of calm and contrast with the chaos on Capitol Hill.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When people say that Washington is broken, it's because of things like this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The House is paralyzed and they cannot conduct any business until they elect new speaker.

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POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. Happy to be joining you from the nation's Capitol. It's a beautiful day, but the house is paralyzed. This morning, the House is paralyzed after this Republican revolt. And we're seeing no speaker for the first time in American history, extraordinary.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: And it's important to step back. The House is often paralyzed about lots of different things. Important -

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Well, we actually really, really --

MATTINGLY: -- it's really the institutions a little bit messy. It's representative of the entire country. We have never seen this before in the history of the country. One motion to vacate has ever gotten up for a vote. Joe Cannon, the building across the street from us was named after him. He won that easily. McCarthy, not so much.

HARLOW: Not so much at all. Congress will not be able to do its job for you, the American people, right? Pay them to come here do their job. They cannot do it in the House right now. And by the way, we're just weeks away from a potential government shutdown

MATTINGLY: That has left House Republicans scrambling to find a replacement for McCarthy. Just keep in mind, it was just eight members led by Congressman Matt Gaetz who were able to topple him. Right now it is a wide-open race to replace him. Some of the names emerging include Jim Jordan, Majority Leader Steve Scalise, minutes ago, Congressman Mike Lawler told us he wants a speaker who will confront the Republican rebels head on.

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REP. MIKE LAWLER, (R) NEW YORK: I think there needs to be a reckoning within the conference. There needs to be accountability for the eight individuals who selfishly up ended our House majority. I want to know from any potential speaker how they intend to deal with those eight.

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MATTINGLY: Democratic Congressman Pat Ryan also joined us this morning, called on Republicans to cross the aisle to make their own leader Hakeem Jeffries, speaker.

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REP. PAT RYAN (D-NY): What we've been doing has not worked. I'm calling on five Republicans to unify with us as Democrats, support Hakeem Jeffries, and let's move the country forward. Let's deliver economic relief. Let's defend democracy. Let's protect reproductive freedom. That is what people in my district, that's what people across the country want.

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HARLOW: Let's bring in our Congressional Correspondent Lauren Fox, who joins us now with much more. Phil is right, the House is often paralyzed. But this has never happened before. And it's going to be at least a week until there's another speaker. What does that mean for people at home?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I mean, the timeline right now is really uncertain. Lawmakers are going back home but there is already jockeying happening in order to try and fill this vacancy.

Now, one of the reasons that they didn't start this process today as they probably would have had to go several rounds, given the fact that there was no clear consensus candidate to take over after House Speaker Kevin McCarthy said he was not going to run again. Does that start to change? In a week's time, you're already starting to see behind the scenes, Republicans trying to gauge support for whether or not they should run for speaker.

Top of that list, of course, is majority leader Steve Scalise. He is already trying to reach out to allies, trying to understand whether there is a path for him. Obviously, he's already in leadership. He has a sophisticated team who's done this before. He knows his way to win a leadership race. He's probably considered the front runner at this moment. There's also of course though, questions about Kevin Hern, who is the leader of the Republican Study Committee, and Jim Jordan who has left that door open to potentially running for speaker.

I'm told this morning that Kevin Hern is trying to understand whether or not there's going to be a lane for him, given the fact that he's sort of in between Scalise, who's in leadership and someone like Jordan who has the backing of members of the House Freedom Caucus in the past.

MATTINGLY: Can I just ask you quickly, the basic functions of this place, does anybody know what happens here, given we've never seen this before?

FOX: Yeah, I mean that is one of the key questions. Right now, we know nothing can happen on the floor. There are some unanswered questions about what can happen in committees. The understanding that I have is that nothing can continue happening right now.

[08:05:14]

But then you had people like Comer last night saying he wants to continue trying to get information for his impeachment inquiry. So I think that right now, we are in unchartered territory. We have unanswered questions. And a lot of smart people in the building behind you are trying to figure out the answers right now.

MATTINGLY: You usually have the answers for everything.

FOX: Exactly.

MATTINGLY: And this time, they don't. Lauren Fox, thank you.

HARLOW: Appreciate it very much. Well, Democrats played a major role in kicking Kevin McCarthy out of speakership, something he talked about a lot. Yesterday after it happened. Listen.

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MCCARTHY: I think today was a political decision by the Democrats. And I think -- I think the things they have done in the past hurt the institution. My fear is the institution sell today. Because you can't do the job. If eight people, you have 94% of or 96% of your entire conference, but eight people can partner with the whole other side. How do you govern?

(END VIDEO CLIP) HARLOW: Joining us now, the number two House Democrat Katherine Clark of Massachusetts. Nice to have a good morning.

REP. KATHERINE CLARK (D-MA): Good morning.

HARLOW: You described Republican infighting as full-scale Civil War. Is what happened maybe good for Democrats politically, but bad for America?

CLARK: The whole speakership of Kevin McCarthy has been bad for America because he continues to choose extremism to attack Social Security, to put abortion rioters into every bill that comes before us, to not focus on lowering costs. So his whole speakership was defined by unprincipled catering to the most extreme actions of his party.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: No speaker of the House this morning, and no speaker for at least a week, good for America? You guys literally can't do your job?

CLARK: It is absolutely not. And the seeds of the destruction of this speakership were planted by Kevin McCarthy, when he created the rules around this motion to vacate himself and gave that authority to extremism. Listen, we hope more than anything, that the lesson that GOP will take out of this is that bipartisanship is not a dirty word. Let's put the American people first again in the House of Representatives.

HARLOW: OK, so talking about bipartisanship, Lauren, our colleague just laid out some of the names that are out there. Steve Scalise looks like the top of the list for many folks right now. Jim Jordan, maybe Kevin Hern? Are any of those names more palatable to you as speaker than Kevin McCarthy?

CLARK: We're clear who our are leaders today.

HARLOW: I understand you want Hakeem Jeffries.

CLARK: Hakeem Jeffries.

HARLOW: But I'm asking you about the reality of these three right now.

CLARK: You know, what we want is them to put forward a speaker who wants to do the job, not just hold the job. HARLOW: All right, let's say Steve, let's play the sound. Steve -- Steve -- if Steve Scalise wants to do it, making calls now, if that -- is that someone who you think is more palatable to you than McCarthy?

CLARK: You know, we -- we stand ready to work with this speaker, who is going to put the American people first. Look -- look what we did in the 117th with the exact same thin majority, infrastructure bill with bipartisan support, bringing manufacturing back, lowering the cost of health care, gun safety legislation protecting the freedom of -- and right to an abortion. That's what we were able to do.

So where is that leadership? And this catering to extremism. We'll see who they put up. But we know that Hakeem Jeffries embodies what the American people are looking for from us, in our house.

HARLOW: Do you really believe there are five Republicans who will agree with you on that and vote that way?

CLARK: I think we're clear-eyed that they have the majority, and that they will have a Republican Speaker.

HARLOW: OK.

CLARK: But I am not going to sit here and speculate on who is going to come forward. But we are here waiting to do the work of the American people. And we hope that they put someone forward who will.

HARLOW: You said something interesting, it was September 22, you spoke to Politico. And at that point, you seemed open to some concessions from McCarthy that maybe would have led to Democrats bailing him out. You talked about more disaster aid, you talked about support for Ukraine, there was a lot of talk about, you know, the -- the impeachment proceedings, an inquiry into Biden, were you open to as Democrats backing him here if you had gotten some of those concessions?

CLARK: So let me be clear, those were never a term sheet or list of demands. Those are the fundamental reasons why we so distrust Kevin McCarthy and why we are looking for this civil war, this chaos going on within their own party to end and move forward to get back to work.

[08:10:17]

I mean, you just look at what Kevin McCarthy did back in May, we had an agreement that would have restored the dramatic cuts they wanted to make, to climate action to our veterans' health care. I mean, they had a scorched earth approach to our budget. We set budget agreements, bipartisan vote to approve it. Kevin McCarthy just rolled back again catering to the most extremists, and they are the ones who took away his speakership.

HARLOW: We got to go. I just wonder when you believe you can tell the American people watching, there will be a Speaker of the House so that you can proceed with your business?

CLARK: We are ready. We have our candidate, and we hope that our Republican colleagues end this chaos and get back to the work that we were sent here to do.

HARLOW: OK, Congresswoman Katherine Clark, thank you for your time --

CLARK: Thank you.

HARLOW: -- for being here in person this morning. We appreciate it.

Phil?

MATTINGLY: Former President Trump has been a big supporter, both Kevin McCarthy and Matt Gaetz but has avoided weighing in on that feud that ultimately led to McCarthy's ouster.

Next, how Trump is reacting this morning? And also this morning, 75,000 Kaiser Permanente health workers will be on a three-day strike, some in Virginia and D.C. already begun. We'll show you what that could mean for patients in those medical systems. Stay with us.

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MATTINGLY: This morning, former President Trump is preoccupied with his civil fraud trial in New York and is perfect purpose believe at least at the moment saying out of the Republican revolt that costs Kevin McCarthy his job as House Speaker.

[08:15:00]

That, of course, is in very stark contrast to Trump's efforts in January to aid McCarthy in becoming speaker when he stepped in at the 11th hour and told Republican holdouts to stand down instead, this time, Trump merely asked last night, quote, "Why is it that Republicans are always fighting among themselves? Why aren't they fighting to be the radical left Democrats who are destroying our country?" Close quote.

Why are they fighting? Why would there be intra-party battles, Poppy?

HARLOW: Don't ask me.

MATTINGLY: With more about where things stand right now, both with the trial and the former president. Live from New York outside of Trump Tower, Alayna Treene. Alayna, do we expect the former president to get involved now that this is a very real race?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Well, it's all unclear, but, you know, the former president, I've covered him for years. I find it hard to believe that he won't try to make what he wants known soon. I wouldn't be surprised if today he's asked about it by reporters or asked over the weekend when he's campaigning in Iowa and offers some sort of vague response like he has so far.

But listen, I mean, I spoke with many of Donald Trump's advisors over the last 24 hours, as well as some of his allies, and they told me that he purposely did not want to get involved. And the reason for that is he has allies on both sides of this fight. He has many people who have endorsed him, and supported Kevin McCarthy. But he also is very close to Congressman Matt Gaetz, of course, who

has endorsed Donald Trump and also is a key surrogate for his campaign. And so, his aides tell me, Donald Trump's aides, that really, he saw a little political upside to this. Now, I do have a quote from one Trump ally that thought know, captures how Donald Trump is thinking about this perfectly, they said, quote, "He can't be sticking his neck out whenever there's a fight in the House, especially when he has people who endorse him on both sides."

Now, as you mentioned, Phil and Poppy, this is very different from January when McCarthy was going through those 15 rounds of votes in his effort to become speaker. At the 11th hour, Donald Trump did call up. He called Matt Gaetz. He also called Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, other conservative holdouts, and opiates, really, to stand down. And we saw that they ended up voting president, some of them.

We saw Matt Gaetz do that, and it helped McCarthy become a speaker. We saw no such effort yesterday. McCarthy really went without Donald Trump as anally as he went into that speaker fight. And of course, as we saw, he was removed.

HARLOW: One thing that he is talking about right now, he's vehement that he will testify in this civil trial. He's talked a lot, by the way, in the past in different probes about saying, I'll do an interview, I'll testify. He hasn't. Do you think he will this time?

TREENE: Well, that's unclear. As you mentioned, Poppy, we've heard that from Donald Trump before, and talking to his team, he does want to testify. He does want to be heard, especially in this case, something that means so much to him about his business, about his empire, something that he ran on in 2016, in 2020, and now again in 2024.

And I think we'll have to see what his lawyers say. In the past, when he said that he wanted to testify, he kind of turned around and said, actually I've listening to my advisors. My lawyers say I shouldn't, and so I'm not going to. But I do think there is a real possibility that he does testify. We'll just have to see what he ultimately decides.

And from the advice of this council, Poppy, Phil?

MATTINGLY: Right, Alayna Treene up in New York. Thank you.

HARLOW: Let's bring in The Early 202 Co-Author Newsletter and Washington Post Live Anchor Leigh Ann Caldwell. CNN anchor Audie Cornish and former Deputy Chief of Staff to Adam Kinzinger also worked with John Boehner, and Maura Gillespie back with us. Good to have you all.

Audie, taking a step back here. I was saying to talking with our team last night, saying the politics matter, the process matters, and the American people matter the most. And this is the first time in history that we have ever seen no speaker of the House. They're going to be gone at least a week until we see one. And should there be a disaster, should there be an emergency, they're really handicapped. How should people think about this, waking up this morning for them?

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: Well, first, I don't want to alarm people in thinking that somehow no one's running the country right now like White House fine, Senate fine. This is a very particular problem on one side of this building. But it is not only Kevin McCarthy's problem because in 40-something days we're all going to be talking again about the continuing resolution and this idea of potentially shutting down the government, et cetera.

And the same fissures and same battles that kicked this off in the first place. Maybe you could say earlier this year, but I'd argue probably a decade ago, are going to come back only with a new leader. So, the question is, who is that and what will they have to give away to make that happen?

MATTINGLY: What's the answer to that? The reason I ask is because I think Audi makes an excellent point in the sense that this has been building for three decades, right? This is from the new Gingrich era and to his credit, the majority first time in decades. However, this has just continued to evolve inside the party. What are the answers to those questions?

[08:20:00]

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL, CO-AUTHOR, THE EARLY 202 NEWSLETTER: Well, it's interesting because last night at Kevin McCarthy's side winding press conference that lasted nearly an hour after ---

HARLOW: He was still psychologically yes.

CALDWELL: After he was ousted. So, he was asked multiple times in multiple different ways, how does the Republican Party move forward? And he would not talk about it as being a problem within the Republican Party. He would say it is a problem within just a small fraction of people who call themselves conservatives, who aren't really conservatives.

But the reality is, as you mentioned, Phil, and as you alluded to Audie, is that this is not the first time this has happened to a Republican speaker. It's happened a few times to a Republican speaker who's unable to keep their job because of the divisiveness and the factions within the Republican Party and a faction of the party that doesn't want to govern.

So maybe the next speaker knows how to do it, but it's a big, big job.

CORNISH: What lesson would you have taken away, right? Like, you worked for Boehner, so Boehner, Paul Ryan, Eric Cantor, maybe they didn't get voted out the same way, but make no mistake, they were essentially kicked out, right? Or ousted and pushed out of the party in a way.

And so, what lesson could you possibly have taken from the last decade that Kevin McCarthy himself wouldn't have learned? MAURA GILLESPIE, PRESS ADVISER TO FORMER SPEAKER JOHN BOEHNER: John

Boehner had plans to retire. And I know everyone likes to say that he was kicked out, but he had plans to retire. This just made it that much easier for him. He is a conservative and he stands by his own principles and the conservative values the party has shifted from not his principles haven't shifted, but the party's principles.

CORNISH: But you hear this over and over again, right? I mean, fundamentally, he did not have control of that caucus. He may have wanted to retire, and I don't want to relitigate that period. But the fact that his legacy is not like, wow, he knows, locked that in.

GILLESPIE: What's interesting is how the speakerships, they're all run differently, right? Pelosi ran it differently; Bayer ran it differently and he wanted to give power back to the members. Now, some will say exactly that his idea of wanting to give the power back to the members empowered them to not be happy if they didn't get 100% of the things they wanted.

And we're hearing that from members, the eight that voted to House Speaker McCarthy, that they didn't get everything they wanted, they're going to take them out. And is that how our politics is going to go from here on out in a Republican Party? It may.

CORNISH: Because there was widespread criticism by the Republican Party of Pelosi about how she ran, that she ran it too strictly, also. And she had two very slim majorities, right? Four and five people, same thing. Still passed enough legislation to make her the boogeyman for another decade to the Republicans.

So why is the takeaway that this form of speakership appeases this person, that person that person is going to somehow get you to governance?

GILLESPIE: I think it was more about let's give power back to the conference and put it to the committees to put the bills together, as opposed to what Pelosi did was have acre group of people who wrote the bills. And again, you can argue the merits of which style is better. It was how we envisioned it.

CORNISH: One chair is empty. That's the report card.

GILLESPIE: But I don't disagree. And I think that Boehner had it going in with this with a positive let's be positive thinking, let's be a unified party. And you had those on the far right who were like, "Yeah, actually, I don't like this because I'm not getting anything I wanted." So, they moved the goalpost, and we saw that time and time again.

It was super frustrating. But John Boehner had relationships across the chamber, but also across the aisle.

CORNISH: Are you saying that's different from McCarthy?

GILLESPIE: Absolutely, I'm saying that's different. And all this comes down to is relationships. And there is a real problem in the Republican caucus, in the Republican Conference, and their ability to have relationships with Democrats. For some reason in this country, we have decided to view each other as enemies as opposed to political opponents, and we're hurting ourselves.

HARLOW: Let's talk let's talk about moving forward. Leigh Ann, the big names being floated. Steve Scalise, Jim Jordan, maybe Kevin Hearn. See if some others come forward. Does it matter if McCarthy backs any of them?

CALDWELL: Well, he was asked last night again if he was going to endorse someone, and he said maybe. I think that it could hurt the next person, perhaps, especially with those eight who don't like Kevin McCarthy. There are a lot of people who don't like Kevin McCarthy. He has a lot of power within the 200 members of the conference, and maybe he can unite them.

But it's not about 200. It's about finding 218 votes. And that's what the next person needs to be speaker of the House. There are not a lot of ideological differences between the people who are running Steve Scalise, Tom Emmer, perhaps Jim Jordan. They're all conservatives, but people have their favorites. And people, some trust some over others.

It is going to be a week of a lot of jockeying. It's going to be a week of a lot of fundraising on who is able to also fill the shoes of Kevin McCarthy.

[08:25:00]

MATTINGLY: That's what I want to ask you about. I think what people need to understand is this isn't just Kevin McCarthy in the building behind us. He is the financial reason that a lot of these guys are in their seats. He's the financial reason that Republicans are in the majority right now. He's raising like 60, 70% of the party's money for the party committees.

He is a massive fundraiser. He has an infrastructure of outside groups at the NRCC, his own personal team. What happens to all that?

CALDWELL: So, Democrats called me yesterday and said that they are going to be watching this very closely because McCarthy's fundraising network was not built overnight. He has been doing this for years and years and years with the ultimate goal of being a speaker in the House and electing a Republican majority. And there is no one who comes close in the Republican conference right now.

And so that is a huge concern among Republicans as well on their path to maintain the House majority. Kevin McCarthy said he was going to continue to work to elect House Republicans, but let's face it, he doesn't have the role and he no longer has the incentive to do what he was doing.

HARLOW: That's fascinating that Democrats were calling you about that. Leigh Ann. Thank you very much, everyone. Stick around. We appreciate it.

MATTINGLY: Also, this morning, a mass shooting at Morgan State University during homecoming week. Five people were shot. All but one of the students were going to be live on campus as police continued to hunt for the gunmen. Also, new strike this morning. Thousands of healthcare workers just walking off the job. What they want, what it means for patient care, that's ahead.

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