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Hillary Clinton On A Potential Biden-Trump Rematch; Hall-of- Famer Dick Butkus Passes Away at Age 80. Aired 6:30-7a ET
Aired October 06, 2023 - 06:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[06:33:11]
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Hillary Clinton speaking out about the chaos between House Republicans during an exclusive interview with CNN's Christiane Amanpour going to discuss everything from her views on Jim Jordan as a potential speaker to the divide over Ukraine funding. Here's part of that conversation.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Here we are in Washington, D.C. amidst another malfunction, the whole world is looking at what's happening in the House and the historic ouster of a speaker, is American democracy in trouble?
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Yes, absolutely, it's in trouble. It was in trouble before this latest incident. This just makes it abundantly clear to anybody paying attention that we have one political party that unfortunately is in absolute hostage situation with its most extreme members. And Kevin McCarthy, who, you know, I have no, you know, relationship with of any kind. But when he actually did the right thing for the country and kept us from going into a government shutdown, he was punished. And he was punished because he worked with Democrats. He worked for the good of the country. He was not continuing to be captive to the far-right extremists. So they toppled him. It was a very small number as you look at the vote, but now we're, you know, reaping the consequences of their misbehavior.
AMANPOUR: So should the Democrats have saved him so to speak, should they have voted to keep him in?
CLINTON: You know, that was a very tough call for the Democratic caucus, but the problem was for them as I understand it, he was totally untrustworthy by any measure. He immediately after they did help him, keep the government open as you know, begun to blame them for all kinds of, you know, extraneous matters. And at some point a leader who has lost all credibility in dealing with the opposition, where you want to have an open line of communication, you want to be able to trust his word is going to, you know, ask for their help and not get it.
[06:35:20] AMANPOUR: It said that the main contenders for his position are Jim Jordan, who you know very well from Benghazi --
CLINTON: I don't know him well. I watched him and, you know, stared at him for 11 hours while they made stuff up about me. So I don't know him. But I've seen him in action.
AMANPOUR: So what will it mean if he gets the speakership?
CLINTON: Well, I mean, he is one of the principal ringleaders of the circus that's been created in the Republican Party for the last several years. I have no inside knowledge about what the Republicans will do, who they will end up voting for. But when do they put the contrary first, they do not represent a majority of even the Republican Party. When you look at the extremists in the House, they certainly don't represent a majority of the country.
And, you know, somebody has to stand up and say, enough. You know, we can have disagreements. I'm all for that. I was in the Senate for eight years. I worked with a lot of Republicans and, you know, oppose them when I didn't agree. But at some point, there needs to be a backlash against the control that this small group of extremists have. And I don't know who will lead that. But let's hope whoever becomes the new speaker will.
AMANPOUR: So the firebrands as you've said, the eight or however many they are, the minority of the Republicans who've ousted their speaker, have done so also loudly decrying America's support for Ukraine and saying that no, no, no, we care about America first, not about Ukraine, is not in our best interest. Do you think that's going to continue? President Biden is planning a major speech in order to shore up what his administration is doing for the defense of democracy in Ukraine? What is your feeling about this and your advice?
CLINTON: Well, I believe that the majority of the Congress on both sides of the aisle still support giving aid to Ukraine, helping Ukraine defend itself, understand that Ukraine's fight is our fight. Understand that a democracy is struggling against an autocracy that is conducting a barbaric invasion and committing crimes against humanity and genocide has to be defeated. So I think a majority of the Congress just like still a majority of the public is in favor of helping Ukraine.
The challenge will be if whoever is elected Speaker somehow controls the floor, so you can't get a vote. So we have a majority, just like we had a majority to keep the government open until, you know, finally, McCarthy allowed there to be a vote with Democrats and a big number of Republicans. So they'll have to be an enormous amount of pressure and maneuvering to get that vote because the Senate will vote to continue to fund Ukraine.
The Pentagon will be asking to continue to fund Ukraine, they understand the stakes. So the, you know, the struggle will be in the House. And we'll all have to do everything we can to force a vote because if we get a vote, Ukraine will be given the aid it needs.
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HILL: And CNN's Chief International Anchor, Christiane Amanpour, joining us now. So Christiane, in this wide ranging and fascinating interview, let's pick up there with Ukraine, where you just left off in that clip. There's also the broader impact, right, of what happens in this country and what that could mean for support from other Western nations specifically for Ukraine. How concerned is she about that?
AMANPOUR: Massively concerned. And you can imagine our conversation was happening as on a split screen, this slaughter of civilians in Ukraine was taking place, the worst single act of random and horrible violence against civilians in this war. So it was really coincidentally -- terribly coincidentally, well-timed what she was saying. And she was saying that, look, this is in America's interest as well. And we cannot, as a country, do anything that would embolden the kind of people, i.e. Vladimir Putin who would do that kind of attack.
And she also had some very, very sharp words for what she called would be appeases in Congress, in the House. And liken them to the America first brigade during the Second World War, who were appeases of Hitler. So it was very, very sharply pointed, and she very much backed President Biden's plan to have a speech to convince the nation that this is not just for Ukraine, but it is also for America.
MATTINGLY: Christiane, it was fascinating, wanted to hear her kind of read on what's transpired on Capitol Hill over the course of the last week or two. But also the idea of which involves some very personal experience for her about Jim Jordan potentially being the next Speaker of the House. Do you feel like there is a kind of personal feeling about that? Or is this more about policy who he is as a member of the party?
[06:40:16]
AMANPOUR: Well, I think it's really about policy. She obviously didn't go there on the personal, but she laid out exactly what happened during those -- those hearings. But she has basically said and a fuller excerpts of this interview will -- will show her saying that there is an extremist cult that is basically leading this dysfunction of minority of the Republican Party that she said probably needs some deprogramming. And she basically went on to say that the onus is on the next election 2024. Because I asked her about that. I asked her about Trump's challenge. She fully expects him to be the nominee for the Republican Party, but said that -- that he needs to be defeated if American democracy is to survive. And if she said this extreme is called, of the Republican Party and Trump ism is to be defeated.
HILL: And we're going to set us up perfectly there, because we're going to dive a little bit deeper with that, after a quick break, Christiane. Stay with us, we're going to have more of your exclusive interview, including some of those comments about this potential Trump-Biden rematch and what it could mean for the country?
MATTINGLY: Also happening today, the trial of disgraced crypto billionaire Sam Bankman-Fried continues after a key witness testified that both he and SPF committed multiple financial crimes. We're going to dig in, coming up.
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[06:45:33]
MATTINGLY: We're back now with more of Christiane Amanpour's exclusive sit-down interview with Hillary Clinton and her outlook on a potential rematch between Donald Trump and President Joe Biden.
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AMANPOUR: So when you look at how to go forward for the country's, you say, is there any area of coalition building that could happen? There are pragmatic Republicans, as you say, could there be a new -- a whole new way of trying to, you know, get legislation going and cross-party governance going by Democrats and certain Republicans forming a coalition?
CLINTON: Well, you saw the number of Republicans who voted along with Democrats to keep the government open. So there's clearly a common sense, sane part of the Republican Caucus in the House. But I think they are intimidated. They oftentimes, you know, say and do things which they know better than to say or do. And it will require us defeating those most extreme measures.
AMANPOUR: Right.
CLINTON: And the people who promote them in order to try to get to some common ground where people can, again, work together. That's the way it used to be. I mean, we had very strong partisans in both parties in the past. And we had very bitter battles over all kinds of things, gun control, and climate change and the economy and taxes. But there wasn't this little tail of extremism, waving, you know, wagging the dog of the Republican Party, as it is today.
And sadly, so many of those extremists, those mega extremists take their marching orders from Donald Trump, who has no credibility left by any measure. He's only in it for himself. He's now defending himself in civil actions and criminal actions. And when do they break with him? You know, because at some point, you know, maybe there needs to be a formal deprogramming of the cult members, but something needs to happen.
AMANPOUR: And how do you do that? Because you said you have to defeat them, by defeating their leader.
CLINTON: Right.
AMANPOUR: Their leader is Donald Trump, even you have said that you expect him to be the Republican nominee? How does this change at all?
CLINTON: At this point, I think sadly, he will still literally be the nominee, and we have to defeat them. And we have to defeat those who are the election deniers as we did in 2020 and 2022. And we have to, you know, just be smarter about how we're trying to empower the right people inside the Republican Party.
You know, Nancy Pelosi had a majority of five votes when she was Speaker. Kevin McCarthy had a majority of five votes. Nancy Pelosi passed consequential legislation. And she clearly had members with her caucus who, you know, ranged across a spectrum of political beliefs and ideology. And she kept everybody together. And she kept everybody focused on the future. He couldn't do that. And so he paid a price, but more importantly, the country paid a price.
AMANPOUR: And so when you see another matchup between, potentially Trump and President Biden, what goes through your mind and particularly, how do you process that this person who defeated you back in 2016 is still at it given all that you've said, 91 indictments, you know, civil fraud, sexual transgressions, according to the courts, how's this still happening?
CLINTON: It's a classic tale of an authoritarian, populist, who really has a grip on the emotional psychological needs and desires of a portion of the population. And the base of the Republican Party, for whatever combination of reasons and it is emotional and psychological, sees in him someone who speaks for them. And they are determined that they will continue to vote for him, attend his rallies, where his merchandise because for whatever reason, he and his very negative, nasty form of politics resonates with them. Maybe they don't like migrants. Maybe they don't like gay people or black people are though woman who got the promotion at work they didn't get, whatever the reason.
[06:50:04]
You know, Make America Great Again was a bid for nostalgia to return to a place where, you know, people could be in charge of their lives, feel empowered, say what they want and salt who ever came in their way. And that was really attractive to a significant portion of the Republican base. So it is like a cult. And somebody has to break the -- break that momentum. And that's why I believe Joe Biden will defeat them. And hopefully, then that will be the end and the fever will break. And then Republicans can try to get back to, you know, fighting about issues among themselves and electing people who are least, you know, responsible and accountable.
AMANPOUR: Are you concerned that a third-party candidate on the Democratic side could thwart Joe Biden's chances?
CLINTON: I am always concerned about a third party. That's what happened to me as we all can recall, and helped by a lot of other forces. And that could happen again this time. So, of course, I worry about anyone who might take votes away from President Biden. Because, you know, I'm in the camp, Christiane, that says, why do you actually hire a politician? You know, what is it you want? And what I want is somebody who can get the job done. And Biden has done an amazing job by any measure.
You know, people have talked about infrastructure forever, he passed the bill. People have talked about losing advanced manufacturing to China, he passed the bill. People have talked about getting clean energy, actually to produce even more and more jobs, he passed the bill. Negotiating for drug prices, all of these things, which many of us have tried to get done in, you know, the Senate and beyond, he's gotten done. And it's going to change Americans lives for the better, and it's going to enhance and grow our economy. And when people say, well, I don't know, pay attention, please. Pay attention to what he's gotten accomplished. But if you don't want to be formed on the merits the way I am be for him, because the alternative could end our democracy. And I don't say that lightly.
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MATTINGLY: Our Chief International Anchor Christiane Amanpour is back with us. Now Christiane, there's a lot that I actually want to discuss with you about that entire interview. But the one thing I was struck by, in what we just heard, was the idea that if Biden wins in 2024, that's the moment where the fever breaks. I've heard some iteration of that now for seven or eight years from Democrats, do you think she really believes it?
AMANPOUR: Yeah, I think she really believes it. But more importantly, she really believes it has to happen in order to save America's democracy. As we started, I asked her, is American democracy in trouble? And she said, yes, no thoughts, no hesitation, no, nothing. It's in trouble. And that's a problem for this country. And it's a problem for the rest of the world that looks to America for its democratic leadership. So it's a big deal, what's happening. And we see across the world, the ripple effects of the dysfunction that that continues in the city.
HILL: It is fascinating. It's such an important interview. I do want to get your take though on, we learned just almost two hours ago, the Nobel Peace Prize winner this year was Narges Mohammadi, and specifically was called out for her fight against the oppression of women in Iran and her fight to promote human rights and freedom for all. For people who may not be familiar with her, she is currently jailed. Can you just paint a picture of why she would be awarded this prize? Why it is so important to recognize her in this moment?
AMANPOUR: Well, you can imagine why I'm smiling very broadly. We cover human rights, women's rights in Iran very, very deeply. She is the second Iranian and the second Iranian woman to win the Nobel Peace Prize in the last 20 years. It's an amazing recognition for their human rights work. She is jailed. She's an activist. She's a journalist. She's been in and out, Narges Mohammadi. For a long time, she's currently serving another long sentence. And in the wake of what happened to Mahsa Amini, as we remember a year ago now, killed in the hands of Iran's morality police. The world's attention has been on Iran and on women around the world. So this is a really huge moment. And just to say, my conversation with Hillary Clinton was at Georgetown at the Institute for Women Peace and Security that she supports. And it's about putting women's, you know, rights and their activism and their presence equally in the public space. So it all makes a huge amount of sense.
HILL: Yeah, it really does. Christiane, so appreciate you're being up early with us this morning. And of course, folks at home can catch that full interview Monday at 1 p.m. Eastern on CNN International. Thanks, Christiane.
MATTINGLY: Happening today, an update on negotiations, is the Auto Workers strike enters its fourth week, why the UAW President just invoke the bachelorette in a tweet?
HILL: And the worst losing streak in Chicago Bears' history, coming to an end last night, the same day the sports world said goodbye to the ultimate Bear and legendary Dick Butkus. That's just ahead.
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[06:59:15]
HILL: For the first time in 346 days, I mean, but who's counting, the Chicago Bears have managed to --
MATTINGLY: Packers fans are counting.
HILL: There's that.
MATTINGLY: So are Bears Fans, probably.
HILL: There's that and Bears fans. Bears fans definitely counting. The good uses they can now throw a W.
MATTINGLY: Why?
HILL: And the most important, they won.
MATTINGLY: Because of notch.
HILL: They won.
MATTINGLY: Notch in the win column.
HILL: Notch in the win column. The Bears, it had been rough for a little while.
MATTINGLY: They've been rough for a little while. They had lost a franchise record 14 straight heading into last night's game against the Washington Commanders, also not exactly thriving franchise at the moment. But the streak certainly over. Receiver D.J. Moore leading the way, catching eight passes from Justin Fields, with three of them for touchdowns. Moore were finished with 230 yards receiving the Bears win 40 to 20, Justin Fields, obviously Buckeyes.
[07:00:00]
HILL: Oh there we go. Before the game, the team is honored Football Hall of Famer Dick Butkus who passed away earlier in the day. He was considered one of the greatest defensive players in league history, making the pro bowl in eight of its nine seasons before a knee injury forced him to retire age 31.
MATTINGLY: Butkus enjoyed a long second career as a sports broadcaster, actor, and pitchman. Dick Butkus, a legend was 80 years old. "CNN This Morning" continues right now.
