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CNN This Morning

Hamas Attacks Israel; CNN Live on Israeli-Gaza Border; Rabbi Steve Leder is Interviewed about Protests and Rallies in the U.S. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired October 09, 2023 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:31:34]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: The scale and coordination of this assault on Israel was without precedent. There's no question about that. Videos on the ground are showing us how Hamas carried out this huge attack.

This video of a heavily armed militant storming the main border crossings between Israel and the Gaza Strip. Israeli forces were apparently caught by surprise. This is a drone blowing up an automatic machine gun at the border. Some of the militants used paragliders to cross into Israel. You can see one flying here, right next to a barrage of rockets.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Hamas used explosives and a bulldozer to breach the security fence. And from the video it looks like they were almost unstopped. They went on to attack weakly guarded military posts and went door-to-door in Israeli towns on the border there taking hostages while killing civilians.

MATTINGLY: Joining us now, CNN's senior global affairs analyst Bianna Golodryga, host of "Mo News" podcast and editor of - editor-and-chief of "Mo News," Mosheh Oinounou. I knew I was going to mess that up and I apologize for that.

MOSHEH OINOUNOU, HOST, "MO NEWS" PODCAST: You got it.

MATTINGLY: And CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller.

John, I want to start with you because I think the scale of what we've seen clearly -- you can use whatever word you want to describe how we haven't seen it before, but it was also the lack of preparedness on the Israeli side that I think has been so stunning. Why do you think that was?

JOHN MILLER CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, people keep talking about the level of sophistication of this attack. We just talked about drones, paragliders, you know, commando teams, missiles, but none of that is particularly sophisticated. What was sophisticated about this attack, stunningly so, and as an intelligence professional I'm still in shock, is the operational security level, which is, this had to involve not just hundreds but thousands of players, all of whom must have known something, many of whom must have known a lot. And the idea that this wasn't picked up by signals intelligence, that it wasn't picked up by satellites, that saw bulldozers moving, that it wasn't picked up, and this is the key, by human sources, that, you know, one of the greatest intelligence agencies in the world, the Mossad, presumably, you know, had penetrating groups like Hamas' military wing, all of that is a shock to the system.

So, there's the sidelight, which is also, that has been a government in controversy in chaos for some time, which can be a real distraction, a watch word to us is we have a broken Congress. They're focusing on job one, which is indicators and warning and being in the right place.

HARLOW: There is, Bianna, the question of, why now? Why did this happen now? And that is backward looking. The forward-looking question is, what now vis-a-vis Iran? The U.S. government is stopping short of -- there have been some reports directly linking Iran that we have not confirmed to Hamas backing this direct attack. The U.S., you just heard from Matt Miller there, not going that far at this point, but what happens?

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, we see ominous signs of the U.S. moving resources to the region as well. Clearly, there's no direct link that the U.S. is willing to make right now. I believe Israel also not making a direct link. But the focus does seem to be on what happens next with Hezbollah. Clearly, this is a bigger operation than even Hamas. And you can get to this failure on intelligence and military readiness to respond to a Hamas attack when you think about what Hezbollah is capable of. And Israel is --

HARLOW: What are they capable of? Because there were some missiles shot from southern Lebanon.

[08:35:00]

GOLODRYGA: There were some, and there are reports of some fighting in northern Israel, as well. But there are rockets, there are missiles, they are well -- more funded than Hamas has ever been, and they're more sophisticated in their weaponry and it's a larger organization. So, there's concern within Israel about the conundrum that the country is in right now because it is imperative that they rescue any hostages and get any remains back from Gaza.

At the same time, they cannot show what would be seen as a potential sign of weakness in their response to Hamas, perhaps opening the floodgates for a launch of an attack from Hezbollah or Iran directly, if they sense that Israel is as vulnerable as some of them may think given the internal divisions within the country and how Israel clearly just dropped the ball in intelligence on this one.

MATTINGLY: Mosheh, this is a point you have made, which is basically, military strength is the north star in this region. It is by definition what Israel has brought to the table and kind of is at the cornerstone of their security in this region. And this has made the country look weak, are at least inept on some level.

OINOUNOU: Yes. For the Israelis it's all about invincibility. Showcasing invincibility. And that's something that even their enemies have taken for granted. Oh, well, you know, we're not going to mess with them on x, y, and z.

What we saw unfold on Saturday, the fact that Israelis, it took them 48 hours to push out all of the Hamas fighters and there's still some inside the country -

HARLOW: Right.

OINOUNOU: Opens the door to other enemies across the region, particularly Iran, Hezbollah. Maybe we should test them. Maybe we've made too many assumptions about Israel.

And, by the way, one thing we haven't discussed yet is the domestic issues that the Israelis have, the Israeli government has, which is, for the Israeli people, the security establishment was the north star. You know, it's a citizen military, et cetera. For them, they're still in a state of shock over what took place. And so the Israeli government, in what it now does in Gaza, both trying to rescue the hostages and get them back, as well as eliminate Hamas capabilities has a huge challenge ahead for them in order to satisfy the domestic issues, but also show the region actually we were - we are as strong, if not more, than you think you are.

HARLOW: So, to that point, John, this is something that the chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Mike McCaul, also brought up in his interview with Dana yesterday, which was, he even brought up the Taliban, and just concerns about -- more broadly about the region. Right after 9/11, and of course there was the commission report, but right after 9/11 there was an intense look at the security failures, the lack of conversation between the CIA and the FBI.

What is happening in Israel right now, in these immediate days, to improve the intelligence operation?

MILLER: That's a really important question because the knee-jerk reaction, which is to say, where's the failure, who failed, and, you know, let's deal with that now, that has to be pushed aside. Right now they need their intelligence apparatus. They need their intelligence people, and they need them focused and on the job. There will be a time to peel back those layers later.

But, Poppy, as you've already foretold, we've seen this movie before. So, if history is our likely guide, what we'll going to see is, there will be those two or three or seven people who come forward and say, we kept trying to say, something is brewing, we're hearing rumblings, there's chatter, we're seeing movement, something's wrong, that may have not had the whole story, but had the pieces. And, again, in a - in a very distracted government situation, or a bureaucracy that had become too comfortable, those indicators and warnings, tipping and queuing, they didn't get where they needed to go. And if history serves us, that's not out of the question.

GOLODRYGA: You mentioned history. I mean it's important, it would be remiss not to note the timing of this, took, 50 days -

MILLER: Fifty years.

MATTINGLY: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: Fifty years and one day following the Yom Kippur War. That was an existential threat to the country. This is more of an emotional and psychological threat given that the Israelis were not there to rescue their own people.

MATTINGLY: All right, guys, stay with us. Stand by.

We want to get straight now to CNN chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward, who joins us live at the first point of entry where militants came in from Gaza to Israel.

Clarissa, extraordinary footing where you are right now. Tell us what you're seeing.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: OK. So, we are basically - well, first of all, you can see Israeli military presence. We've been seeing a lot of personnel and a lot of armor. Obviously, that's not armor, but personnel moving towards that border. Gaza is literally five minutes down the road that way.

And this is where militants from Hamas first entered. They drove up to that traffic light, turned around, came down here and just started spraying machine gunfire all along this road. You can see some of the cars just blew right up.

This is actually the pickup truck that the Hamas militants were inside. You can see in the wind screen here, somebody, obviously, was armed, managed to shoot a couple of rounds into the wind screen.

[08:40:01]

At that point, the militants got out of the vehicle and just started shooting anything and everything that was moving.

I want to show you another car. Forgive me for sort of zig zagging around here. But I think this gives you a feel for the intensity of the fire, just completely shot up here, multiple, multiple entry points. And again, over down here, you can see more cars actually blew up as a result of all that machine gunfire.

A lot of people were killed along this road. Those who weren't killed were then taken away, held as hostages. And you can still see everywhere personal effects on the ground. I saw a baby carriage up there earlier on. We were hearing a story from the military who first showed us this scene of a medic who was driving actually this car on the -- if you just spin around, I'm just talking to Clayton (INAUDIBLE), my camera operator here, this white car had a medic in it. And he was driving -- I'm sorry, I cut my hand here, but don't worry about it, I'm fine. He actually had a sign in Hebrew saying that he was a doctor. And you can see direct bullet to the front windshield here. Two rounds, at least. He was very sadly killed. But this is what they were dealing with, just absolute carnage. Five

minutes away from Gaza. And so quickly, within a matter of moments, everything changed along this border area.

And this is still, I should add, you know, they've secured it enough to feel comfortable letting us here, but this border area is still facing the threat of potential militants still out there. IDF now estimating somewhere between 800 to 1,000 managed to cross over. Dozens and dozens of breaches to the border. And scenes like this just of carnage and destruction everywhere you look.

HARLOW: Clarissa, it's 3 - it's almost 4:00 p.m. in the afternoon there. Just -- it is desolate. We see just one vehicle coming behind you, by the way. A few people walking around. What is this area normally like, to put in perspective what we see now?

WARD: I mean, we're not too far from the city of Stevolt (ph). This is, you know, a vibrant city normally. As I mentioned before, over up on that corner I saw a baby carriage upended just on the side of the road. There's doctors here. These are ordinary civilians going about their daily life. Now it's a virtual ghost town, of course. A lot of people are still sheltering in place, those who have not already been evacuated. It's quiet right now, but there has been steady rocket barrages throughout the day. There's a shelter over there that people can run and take cover in.

But this is extremely difficult and dynamic, fluid situation on the ground. And the fear right now, or I should say the priority really right now, is to try to ensure that all of the militants who successfully infiltrated that border have been killed or captured. That all of the various breaches in the dozens we now know, I believe it was 80 according to the IDF, have been resolved and fixed, and that the hostages can now be the main focus.

And I should say, we were talking to a major with the IDF, who said that it has been very difficult for the Israeli forces to try to ascertain how many of those hostages with alive, how many of them may already be dead. We know that Hamas claims they have more than 100 Israeli hostages, now just a few minutes away, on that side of the border.

MATTINGLY: Yes, Clarissa, to that point, as somebody with a ton of experience in the region, you were pointing out that the military personnel capabilities equipment that was driving by, or has been going by you, what does that dynamic do for what comes next from a military perspective on Israel's side?

WARD: I think it's obviously fueling a lot of speculation that we're talking about an imminent ground invasion of Gaza. The complicating factor, of course, are those hostages. I mean Hamas claimed that in that - I'm just going to step out of the road here -- that in the bombardment last night of Gaza, and it was a ferocious night of bombardment in the Gaza Strip, that at least four hostages were killed. We don't have any way of verifying that number. But I think at least it speaks to the very real challenge that Israeli forces face here, kind of trying to thread that needle of taking out Hamas terrorist targets, while at the same time not risking the lives of the dozens or more hostages who likely remain inside that area.

[08:45:17]

HARLOW: We -- Clarissa, our Nic Robertson, our colleague, was with us just moments ago, and as he was speaking to us there were Israeli fighter jets overhead. And seconds later, we saw the smoke from strikes in Gaza City. I wonder what you are seeing and hearing as well. Those are images of what we saw just moments ago.

WARD: Yes, we have been hearing a steady barrage of rockets. We've also been hearing strikes going into the Gaza Strip. We're much closer now to the border. It's just five minutes that way. As I said, I haven't heard any strikes in the last five or ten minutes. You can hear jets overhead, though.

As I said before, it's absolutely a dynamic and fluid situation. We were up all night on a balcony in the city of Ashkelon (ph). Relentless, relentless, both in terms of barrages of rockets coming in, but also in terms of those heavy strikes that we heard throughout the night, nonstop jets in the sky, a lot of drone activity as well. And the tempo just continuing to ratchet up.

HARLOW: But there is, obviously, the very complicating factor of 100- plus hostages being held, Clarissa, and how - how the IDF navigates these strikes with hostages being held in Gaza.

WARD: Well, exactly, Poppy. And it's important to underscore, I think anyone can appreciate this, but this is like a deeply emotional issue for Israeli people, not to mention the kind of visceral grip of terror that it has on the psyche of ordinary people, particularly when you're talking about a situation where it's still ongoing, where there are still Hamas fighters potentially at large in this territory.

And so, again, it comes back to this very real challenge that Israeli forces face in trying to walk this tightrope. And you've heard Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu tell the Israeli people, listen, brace yourself, this is going to be long and this is going to be hard. And I think we're already seeing that quite clearly on the ground.

HARLOW: Clarissa Ward live for us this morning, right near the Gaza border. Clarissa, thank you very much, to you and your entire team. We'll get back to you soon.

MATTINGLY: And we'll have much more of our breaking coverage of Israel, Gaza, our team on the ground and around the world.

Stay with us.

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[06:51:43]

HARLOW: We do have more breaking news this morning as we continue to follow the death toll rising in the Middle East. Five hundred people dead in Gaza according to the Palestinian ministry of health. In Israel, we know more than 700 people have been killed in these attacks. State Department Spokesman Matt Miller just confirming to CNN, nine Americans are among those killed.

And this is new video we also have from Gaza. Palestinian officials say Israeli air strikes hit refugee camps, also medical facilities, killing, according to them, a large number of people. No specifics there.

Israel's defense minister announce this morning a complete siege of Gaza. No electricity, no food, no fuel.

The IDF spokesman confirming also to us here at CNN all options are on the table regarding any potential ground incursion.

Within the hour Israel launching strikes within Gaza. And minutes ago CNN crews witnessing military vehicles moving toward Gaza.

With us back at the table, our senior global affairs analyst Bianna Golodryga, host of the "Mo News" podcast and editor-in-chief, Mo is also back with us, and our chief law enforcement and intelligence officer, John, back with us.

Bianna, to you.

The question becomes now what happens? Walk us through. Because this is still ongoing. It's not a question of, there is a pause and then what. It is, what happens next? What is the Israeli response, particularly on the ground as this continues?

GOLODRYGA: Well, so far, 300,000 Israeli reservists have been called up. If there's one positive note within the country of Israel, any concern that reservists who were going to sit out in protest of the judiciary overhauling reforms in the country, we're not seeing any signs of that. Everybody showed up.

HARLOW: That was a big question.

GOLODRYGA: Everybody showed up for duty to protect their country.

For Bibi Netanyahu, he doesn't want this to be his Golda Meir moment. And as we mentioned before, he not only has a fight a front in terms of getting these hostages back and negotiating their release, and we know how long these negotiations can last and the price that Israel has been willing to pay in response -- in return for one body, two people, we are talking dozens, we don't know how many people they have held hostage, and at the same time show a sign of strength to any other perceived enemies who may see this as an opening for them. And from a military intelligence perspective, not only how did they miss this, how did they miscalculate Hamas's strategy going forward.

Now, Hamas hasn't launched a rocket from Gaza in two years. And the Israeli focal point has been more on Fattah, viewing Hamas as an organization that is focused more on governing and not terrorism. So, if you take a bigger step back and look at their overall intelligence assessment of where Hamas stood, there are a lot of questions to be asked. Where did they get so wrong? Why were they not seeing any sort of buildup to this incursion? And to your point, what happens next? The U.S. says that they're willing to help Israel from any perspective. Does this lead to a bigger regional conflict? I don't know.

MATTINGLY: That's actually my question, right, is there's complicity on the part of Iran, or there's direct involvement. I think what I heard from U.S. officials throughout the course of the night is basically warning regional actors, do not use this as an opportunity.

OINOUNOU; Right.

MATTINGLY: What happens if one -- Iran or others -- uses this as an opportunity?

OINOUNOU; I mean it's one of the reasons the U.S., DOD, is moving forces into the region, right?

[08:55:00]

I mean basically that message of sending the aircraft carrier group closer was, don't mess around here, don't escalate this further.

As far as the Israeli task, it is tall, right? I mean you heard from Clarissa already that Hamas claims that several Israeli hostages were killed as Israel goes in there. And so they have this - this multifold challenge of dealing with Gaza, the ongoing threat from Hezbollah on the northern border that, hey, we're going to get involved if you get involved in Gaza, this invincibility gone, as we discussed. So, what more does Iran do as they see a vulnerable Israel.

So, Israel has this really this -- quite a challenge at a time where the government is divided, the country has been divided, to be able to also take out Hamas, which is effectively the government of Gaza. They've been there for 16 years.

By the way, Israel has helped empower Hamas at times. They've viewed them as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority. So now after empowering them, allowing aid in there, it's -- you're really talking about almost like the U.S. going into Iraq. You have to take out the entire government of, yes, it's a seven mile by 25-mile piece of land, but they are fully immersed in there. There's 2.5 million Palestinians in there, 100 plus Israeli hostages in there. What do you do? Israel has no capacity nor desire to reoccupy the place. At the same time, they have to take out their capabilities.

HARLOW: Thank you all very much.

MATTINGLY: Well, the war in Israel is leading to rising tensions across the United States as well. This is footage from a pro-Palestine rally Sunday in Times Square. What you are looking at right now is from outside the Israeli consulate in San Francisco. And this video posted on social media shows an apparent clash between protesters in Kirkland, Washington, near Seattle. A city spokesperson told CNN there were approximately 300 people at the demonstration and no arrests have been made. A rabbi in Salt Lake City was forced to stop services Sunday and evacuate the synagogue after he said the congregation had received a bomb threat. The Anti-Defamation League is, quote, very concerned about a rise in anti-Semitism in the U.S. due to the unfolding war in Israel. Joining us now is Rabbi Steve Leder from Wilshire Boulevard Temple in

Los Angeles.

Rabbi Leder, I appreciate your time.

I want to start there in terms of, as you watch this play out, the dynamics at home, what do you see them as?

STEVE LEDER, SENIOR RABBI, WILSHIRE BOULEVARD TEMPLE: Well, unfortunately this is not a new story for us. This is the oldest of stories.

I believe what we'll see is some degree of latitude granted to Israel and the Jewish people to defend themselves. And eventually as Israel exercises its capabilities and attempts at least and I hope succeeds in ridding the good people of Gaza and the world and themselves of Hamas, what you will see with, because of the collateral damage, is victim blaming. This will -- this will pivot from being the fault of savages who claim to be (INAUDIBLE) religious people and it will pivot to blaming the victim. And people are already finding ways to say this is Israel's fault, which is -- it's the most absurd of lies. But we will see an uptick, I believe, but we're prepared for that.

HARLOW: The Anti-Defamation League also very concerned about a rise in anti-Semitism, which is already been heightened in this country. What are members of your community telling you at your temple? What did they say to you yesterday and today?

LEDER: I will say that the solidarity with Israel, the belief in the importance of what Israel represents to the Middle East and the world, the solidarity is profound, Poppy, profound. Far secondary to that are a handful of calls, you know, are you sure our security is up to what it should be? We are - we want to be sure our children are safe. But that is a far, far second from this feeling of complete and total solidarity for the people of Israel and for the Jewish people everywhere.

I might remind you that this is not a war against Israelis. Article VII of the Hamas Covenant makes it very clear, if you don't mind me reading it, I quote, "then the Jews -- the day of judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them." Not Israelis. "Then the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees and the rocks and trees will cry out. Oh, Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." That is Article VII from the Hamas Covenant.

[09:00:00]

This is not just brutality and a senseless war against Israelis, it's against all Jews. It's against all good people everywhere. And we have to defeat this enemy.

HARLOW: Rabbi Steven Leder, thank you for joining us this morning.

Thanks to all of you. We will see you back here tomorrow morning.

CNN continues the breaking news coverage right after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)