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CNN This Morning

Jodi Rudoren and Bobby Ghosh are Interviewed about the Attack on Israel; House GOP Under Pressure; Biden Interviewed by Special Counsel; Moran Alony is Interviewed about his Kidnapped Relatives. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired October 10, 2023 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Compared to Hamas? Because yesterday -

MAJ. MIKE LYONS, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Better.

HARLOW: Better?

LYONS: Yes, better more. Have great capability. Again, still don't really have that shock effect, but they're good fighters and there's - there's more of them.

Israel has got to be concerned. This - this now creates a -- if they come in from the north here, and - and they attack here, are coming from the south, this now creates the nightmare 1973 scenario of an attack on both fronts.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Major Mike Lyons, we appreciate it. Thank you.

Well, six family members kidnapped in southern Israel by Hamas. We'll speak to their brother about what happened when militants began ransacking their building.

HARLOW: Also, CNN went inside of a bomb shelter after it was shot up with bullets and blown up with a grenade by Hamas militants. You will see that ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: New evidence this morning of the brutal tactics being used by Hamas militants, including opening fire on civilians inside of bomb shelters. Even throwing grenades into those bomb shelters.

Look at this video. The militants are seen surrounding this bomb shelter, screaming at a shirtless man standing outside. He squats down as they begin kicking him.

[06:35:03]

His fate this morning is unknown. Moments later, a militant throws a grenade into the bomb shelter. A

man runs out, trying to escape, but the militants immediately raise their weapons. They fire at him. We also do not know his fate this morning.

MATTINGLY: CNN's Nic Robertson later visited that shelter. Here's what he found.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: People came in here to get shelter. There's gunshots and impacts all over the wall. I don't think we'll go in too far. It is a very horrific testimony to the absolute carnage, rampage and utter, utter brutality of Hamas that people were hiding in there. And it's absolutely clear from the blood on the walls, the bullet holes in the walls, that they just went in there and shot these innocent people, cowering and hiding away from them inside this concrete place of safety, this shelter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Joining us now, editor-in-chief of "The Forward" and former "New York Times" Jerusalem bureau chief, Jodi Rudoren, and "Bloomberg" editor and foreign affairs columnist Bobby Ghosh.

Guys, thanks so much for joining us at the table.

Jodi, I want to start with you because we're all trying to figure out the what comes next, but it's important to also watch that and recognize what this is and why this was so different from anything I think we've seen, at least at this scale. And that drives the, what is the response going to be, and when will it happen. What's your sense?

JODI RUDOREN, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "THE FORWARD": Well, your right, and, I mean, Nic has shown us so powerfully the brutality and the extent. And it's like nothing we've never ever seen before. I mean this was a brutal, horrific terrorist attack on mostly innocent civilians. And the scale of it is something Israel is totally unprepared for, has not seen in its history.

So, we thought we understood the cycle of violence between Israel and Gaza. We've seen many rounds of things. And they were very predictable. And you would see air strikes in response to rocket fire.

The scale of this attack is so beyond anything we were prepared for that it's hard to predict the response. And the hostages complicate that situation. I mean, Israel takes hostages incredibly seriously. We have seen the entire country and government mobilize to rescue one hostage and give up massive numbers of Palestinian prisoners in exchange for one hostage. Now there seem to be something like 130 or 150 people inside Gaza, soldiers, women, children, families, also dead bodies that were taken back, which is very high stakes for Israel as well.

So, the idea of exactly how Israel will respond is really something that is almost impossible to predict, but it will be severe and fierce.

HARLOW: You have called this, Bobby, Hamas's biggest success, but also its greatest failure. Why its greatest failure in (INAUDIBLE)?

BOBBY GHOSH, "BLOOMBERG" EDITOR AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS COLUMNIST: Well, because it's -- the mask has come off. For some of us we've known for a long time what Hamas really is. But there is a large proportion of people in the world, even among our European partners for instance, who have been reluctant to use the "t" word.

HARLOW: Terrorists.

GHOSH: The fact that Hamas is a terrorist group. There's been a temptation in many parts of the world to think of Hamas as a resistance movement. Well, resistance movements don't go into a music festival and slaughter young people who are doing nothing but singing and dancing, many of them in the name of peace. Resistance movements don't take children and elderly women hostage. Resistance movements don't do what we just saw in those videos.

This is a terrorist group. This is much closer in the spectrum to ISIS than to any resistance movement. And now that mask has fallen.

So, Hamas might think at the moment that they've delivered this huge blow to Israel. And of course they have. This is the single -- as we've just heard -- that Israel has not received a blow of this gravity perhaps in its entire history. But at the very moment it was delivering this blow, Hamas was also essentially revealing itself to any remaining people who think that Hamas is a resistance group, that's no longer sustainable.

MATTINGLY: To that point, you know, I think the why in terms of not just the response to Israel or how it didn't see this coming, but also the attack itself has been one of the biggest questions about why would Hamas move at this point? And Jodi you wrote in "Forward," "the most plausible explanation I have heard so far is that Netanyahu's right wing government took its eye off the ball, moving thousands of troops from the Gaza command to protect Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank, and focusing far too much energy on suppressing pro-democracy protests rather than thwarting actual threats."

And I know there's going to be a lot of time to see what went wrong here, but do you think that that was a driving factor behind the Hamas decision to launch now?

RUDOREN: Yes. I mean I think a more compelling explanation of why Hamas may have launched now is also connected to the Saudi deal and the pending Saudi deal and Iran's particular opposition of the idea of Saudi and Israel making peace.

MATTINGLY: Right.

[06:40:06]

RUDOREN: So, I think the -- Hamas' Iranian backers are motivated by that. But I think the timing, not just -- it was on a holiday and we've see history in Israel of attacks on holidays being very effective.

And I do think that Israel's internal political division, the fact that Israel has spent a year torn apart by the politics of this right wing government and by particularly the judicial overhaul plan, made it particularly vulnerable to attack in terms of -- we'll find out more about the specifics about whether troops were actually moved in how, but the physically I think for sure everybody's attention has been on the protests in the street, on the internal divisions around the questions about the right wing ministers and the questions about the religious and the secular in Israel and nobody was focused on this threat as it massed and became, as Bobby talked about, I mean so much bigger than anybody had ever imagined.

HARLOW: Very quickly, the role that Qatar can play in the hostages. They were integral in getting those five Americans released from Iran several weeks ago. One hundred and fifty, it's now believed, held in Gaza.

GHOSH: Well, this is - this is bigger than anything the Qataris have had to deal with in the past. Proportion of the Hamas leadership is based in Doha. The Qataris have good offices with Hamas. The Qatari's helped to finance any reconstruction and will again be expected to help finance the reconstruction for all the damage that we've been looking at.

So, they are the best bet we have now to intervene. But the trouble is that Hamas is not one sort of top down organization. There are factions and factions. And at that -- this moment it might suit the Hamas militants to have those hostages as shields. And, of course, that threat of - of killing them if Israel continues its (INAUDIBLE) --

HARLOW: On camera.

GHOSH: On camera. Talk about ISIS. It might suit Hamas more to hold on to those hostages rather than have it a just - a sort of meaningful discussion about letting them do.

When it - when that time finally comes, I suspect the Qatari's will be crucial. I'm not so sure that this is the moment for it.

HARLOW: Bobby, thank you.

Jodi, appreciate it. Good to have you with us this morning.

House Republicans preparing for a messy fight to appoint the next speaker. Why Kevin McCarthy is not now ruling out a return to the role.

MATTINGLY: And we are learning that President Biden was interviewed by the special counsel investigating his handling of classified documents. What it tells us about the state of the investigation. That's up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:45:58]

MATTINGLY: We are now showing you live pictures of plumes of smoke floating atop Gaza City. It is 1:45 p.m. in the afternoon there. We have seen this throughout the course of the last several days as Israeli strikes from fighter jets continue as we have had reporting on the ground from our Nic Robertson as Israeli forces on the ground outside of Gaza continue to move kibbutz -- through kibbutz trying to clean up, trying to recover and trying to get a full sense of the scale of what's happened over the course of the last several days.

HARLOW: As we keep a very close eye on that, at least 30 people are injured after a stampede during a pro-Israel candle lit vigil. This happened at the University of Florida last night. A witness says around 1,100 people gathered to honor the victims of the attacks on Israel and suddenly someone fainted. People were startled, shouting. Started to call 911. You see that. The confusion sparked a panic. It sent the crowd running for their lives. People fell on top of each other, causing them to be trampled. The injuries treated at the hospital are said to include broken ankles, ribs, concussions, minor cuts. Thankfully, no life-threatening injuries can be reported. But you can see all of the tension playing out there in the United States as well.

MATTINGLY: Yes. And we're also still following news on Capitol Hill. Keep in mind, there is still no formal speaker of the House. House Republicans meeting again today about electing a new speak after a closed door meeting last night only seemed to add to the division. The two-man race between Congressman Steve Scalise and Jim Jordan is growing even more complicated as former Speaker Kevin McCarthy has refused to rule out a return to power.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): That's a decision by the conference. I'll allow the conference to make whatever decision. Whether I'm speaker or not, I'm a member of this body. I know what history has had. And I can lead in any position it is. And, right now, I realize we need these five actions taken now and stop delaying.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: CNN's Lauren Fox joins us now.

Lauren, I've got to ask, it wasn't very subtle yesterday between the press conference and the comments related to, it's up to the conference. He pulled himself out of running. Is McCarthy considering trying to hop back in here?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that that's what a lot of his allies are watching very closely, Phil. There is a lot of concern and consternation within the conference that why should Kevin McCarthy be forced to be ousted when you potentially could just have a reshuffling of the leadership where everyone moves up a rung. And that is the concern that a lot of his allies have. Does he get back into the race? I think he said repeatedly yesterday it's up to the Republican conference. But last night, behind closed doors, Republicans got no closer to

electing a speaker. We expect that there will be a candidate forum today around -- later this afternoon where both Jim Jordan, the House Judiciary chairman, and Majority Leader Steve Scalise, both men vying for the job of speaker, will talk to the conference about their plans for funding, about their plans for the future of the Republican majority in the House of Representatives. And then tomorrow they would go behind closed doors and vote as a conference on potentially electing a speaker.

Now, there's a question about that process tomorrow, whether there would be a rules change. Right now, to get that vote in the conference, you have basically a simple majority. They're looking at potentially raising that threshold to having to get 217 votes. That's the magic number behind closed doors before you go to the floor.

And there's a reason for that, Phil. The reality is that once they go to the floor, there is concern they could put themselves in a position where neither of these men have locked down the votes they need and you could have a 15, 20-round speaker race, similar to what you saw back in January when Kevin McCarthy was vying for the job.

Now, we should point out that Republicans feel like this is a moment in which the world is watching. Many members want the conference to coalesce quickly.

Here were two of those members last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. STEVE WOMACK (R-AR): We're kind of like a scattergram. We're all over the map in terms of the way forward. Some of it about rules changes. Some of it about, you know, hard feelings about what happened on Tuesday.

[06:50:05]

REP. MAX MILLER (R-OH): I believe that we should re-evaluate every single individual, not based off the job they've done previously, just based off where we are today and me leaving that room and seeing how broken the personalities are with individuals who are currently running. We have a lot of work to do. And I believe we need an extra week. And look at different options for all leadership positions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: And the reason the timing is so important here is because without a House speaker there is nothing that can be done for Israel on the floor of the House of Representatives, including just a simple resolution for support.

Now, there is some talk among congressional leadership, as well as the White House, about tying Israel aid to Ukraine funding. Those are two issues that are important to many Republicans and Democrats. But the Ukraine piece of that has been problematic for some hardliners. I was asking members last night, Republicans, if they would agree to tie those things together. And even people who supported Israel funding and Ukraine funding, like Representative Mario Diaz-Balart told me last night, he has concerns about potentially attaching those two things, saying that they should be separate votes. So, you see trouble ahead, even if the Republican conference can get through electing a speaker still remains a big question.

MATTINGLY: Indeed. Lauren Fox for us, live in Washington, thank you.

HARLOW: Meantime, at the White House, President Biden spoke voluntarily, we've learned, with the special counselor, Robert Hur, investigating his handling of classified documents. Officials say that he interviewed the president on Sunday and on Monday. It wrapped up yesterday.

Katelyn Polantz has all the reporting and joins us now. Notable that he sat down. The White House saying this is transparency. We're putting it out there. What more can you tell us?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it is quite notable in this special counsel investigation. A special counsel investigation that's been around for about a year. That we've heard very little about but is significant enough, thorough enough, to make sure that the special counsel is -- he clearly is wanting to check all of the boxes and make sure that he's doing as thorough investigation as possible, interviewing the president. That is not a small thing.

So, the White House did confirm this yesterday. They said, "the voluntary interview" - voluntary - "was conducted at the White House over two days, Sunday and Monday, and concluded Monday. As we have said from the beginning, the president and White House are cooperating with this investigation."

And if you recall, back when this started about a year ago, it was against the backdrop of other investigations around the handling of classified records specifically with Donald Trump and Mar-a-Lago, which did result in charges against the former president, Trump. That is a different situation as far as the investigation and as far as the response, what we know of, than what happened with Trump, because the White House appears to have given these documents back willingly and now having Biden sit for an interview quite possibly signals potentially the end of the investigation, or at least a very thorough review that's been done so far.

MATTINGLY: All right, Katelyn Polantz for us in Washington. Thank you.

HARLOW: Happening now, air strikes continuing between Israel and Gaza. We're getting a closer look at Hamas' deadly attack on Israel. CNN is live on the ground.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTINGLY: Now to a harrowing account of six family members kidnapped by Hamas militants early Saturday morning. Moran Alony says his two sisters and their families were celebrating the holiday on a kibbutz (ph) in southern Israel.

[06:55:01]

His sisters, Sharon (ph) and Danielle (ph), told him they could hear bombs going off nearby and said Hamas was ransacking their neighbor's house. They all sought shelter in the safe room but then Hamas set fire to the house. They had to escape and found themselves in the hands of their kidnappers. Sharon and her husband David and their twin daughters were taken, as well as Danielle and her five-and-a-half- year-old daughter Amelia.

Joining us now from Israel, Moran Alony.

Thank you so much for joining us. We are so sorry for what you are going through right now.

Just to start, have you had any indication, any contact whatsoever with your missing family members?

MORAN ALONY, SIX FAMILY MEMBERS KIDNAPPED, INCLUDING BOTH SISTERS: Not yet. We're still waiting for updates.

MATTINGLY: Can you describe -

ALONY: Yes, we -

MATTINGLY: Go ahead.

ALONY: No, we are - we - we - we went to a - the - a missing person's center. We gave them all the information that we had. And since then we're waiting for a (INAUDIBLE).

MATTINGLY: Can you describe kind of your contact in these harrowing moments leading up their abduction?

ALONY: Yes. We were - we woke up Saturday and we woke up to alarms as well. And naturally we called them. And they told us that they were entering the safe room and that there are - they told that the terrorists are in the kibbutz. They say they don't know anything else.

And as we continue, you know, discussion through - through messages, they told us that they can hear terrorists on the - at their neighbors. And - and then after, I don't know, 10 minutes, maybe 20 minutes, they told us that they hear the terrorists at their house. And - and they - they're not sure they're going to make it. They said, I love you.

And later on we got a message that they were burning the house. And that - that they - they don't think they will make it. And that's was the last time that I heard of them.

MATTINGLY: There's an important, I think, distinction that you wanted to draw here, that this isn't a military verse military conflict. This isn't the IDF versus Hamas. That these are civilians. What - what do you want to say about that?

ALONY: Correct. One second. Sorry. One second. Yes. Sorry.

I wanted to say that this is -- this entire situation is not military against military. It's - it's a military -- no less than that. Hamas is a military against civilians, mothers, sisters, childs, my three- year-old nephews, my five-and-a-half-year old nephew are there. And this is -- we need to understand that now everything that I want is to see them again. And hopefully we'll do everything that we cannot, you know, to make it happen.

I'm currently supporting myself, my daughter, my parents. It's a - it's a surreal situation for us. It's a --

MATTINGLY: I can't imagine from a - from a family perspective. How are - how are your parents doing through all this?

ALONY: First - first two days I think it's shock. We all were. We all still are. You're kind of, you know, losing -- you don't know what happened. It's a terrible situation. It's not something that anyone is teaching you how to - how to handle.

So, first two days are shocked. I was there trying to just manage the situation. Trying to gather as much information as I can. We got a lot of information from their family in the kibbutz. There are -- all of my brother-in-law's family is there. They were under the same terrorist attack. His younger brother and his girlfriend were also -- are also missing. We also think that they are kidnapped as well.

And so we got this - you know, a lot of information. That's what I try to communicate to my parents, understanding what's going on. And slowly we are managing ourselves. Nothing more. We're just surviving.

[07:00:00]

MATTINGLY: Well, Moran Alony, we -

ALONY: And that's it (ph).

MATTINGLY: We appreciate you, one, taking the time to share your story. We certainly are thinking about you and your family.