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John Bolton is Interviewed about Iran; Health System on Brink of Collapse; Tal Hartuv is Interviewed about Surviving Hamas Attack. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired October 12, 2023 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

AARON COHEN, ISRAELI SPECIAL OPERATIONS VETERAN: Limited penetration is a big one. And all these units are getting ready to deploy them.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron Cohen, we appreciate your expertise.

Colonel Leighton, thank you as well.

Well, President Biden warning Iran to, quote, "be careful," after Hamas attacked Israel. We're going to break down the conflicting reports of whether Iran knew about the attack beforehand and we'll ask former National Security Adviser John Bolton how the U.S. should respond in his view. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back.

A critical question lingers about Hamas' deadly attack on Israel. Was Iran directly involved in that attack? The answer, for the moment, depends on who you ask. Iran denies that, although it celebrated the attack. The Iranian regime, I should note. A senior Israeli official says Iran was aware of the operation and effectively gave the, quote, "green light."

The United States, on the other hand, has gathered intelligence that suggests Iran was - like high-ranking officials in Iran were surprised by the attack. That's according to multiple sources familiar with that U.S. intel. And a Hamas official in Lebanon did not mention Iran's awareness but said, quote, "even our allies did not know about the zero hour," of the attack.

[08:35:01]

And now, as President Biden faces calls to take new action against Iran from some, this is his message for the regime.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Already we're - we're surging additional military assistance to the Israeli Defense Force, including ammunition, interceptors to replenish the Iron Dome, and we've moved a U.S. carrier fleet to the eastern Mediterranean and we're sending more fighter jets there to that region. And made it clear, made it clear to the Iranians, be careful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Joining us now, former Trump National Security Advisor John Bolton.

Ambassador Bolton, appreciate you being here, in that capacity, and your experience as ambassador to the United Nations as well.

Let's begin with Iran because I think everyone knows where you stand on Iran. We'll never forget the op-ed you wrote in 2015 to stop Iran, bomb Iran. But I am struck by how differently even members of Congress see the intelligence out of Iran, that they were briefed on yesterday. Should the U.S. be exceedingly cautious at this moment?

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, I think you have to look at particular elements of intelligence within the broader strategic framework. And I think what happened over the weekend was an Iranian attack on Israel using Hamas as a surrogate.

HARLOW: No question.

BOLTON: The -- none whatever. The only real question now is whether Hezbollah will join in at an appropriate time.

Iran has supplied enormous quantities of weapons, material, financing, training to both Hamas and Hezbollah for decades. Really they formed Hezbollah in the early 1980s. Hamas had a different origin, it's Sunni, not Shia. But in the last ten years they have been largely a surrogate for Iran. And many leading Hamas officials are embedded with Hezbollah in Lebanon and Turkey.

Iran did not provide all that material, billions of dollars' worth, over the years so that Hamas or Hezbollah could deploy it when they saw fit. They gave them those weapons so that they would be deployed when Iran saw fit. And let's not forget, this attack occurred on the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kipper War.

HARLOW: Yes.

BOLTON: This is not accidental.

HARLOW: I just want to be clear, that is in opposition to what multiple sources tell CNN the U.S. intelligence is.

I'm just asking, you don't have any intelligence to that effect, do you?

BOLTON: Well, the administration certainly isn't sharing intelligence with me. That I can say.

HARLOW: Right. I just want to make it clear for our viewers.

BOLTON: But in - in the interest of national security, I would be prepared to buy a copy of "The Wall Street Journal" for the White House that will show them their story from Sunday quoting sources in Hezbollah and Hamas.

HARLOW: Which we have not confirmed. I just want to make that clear.

BOLTON: And now there's a new "Wall Street Journal" story today that saying there's an intelligence estimate that says indeed Iran did know that.

Look, Israeli and American intelligence missed the attack. So, why should anybody be surprised that they missed the piece of information about Iranian approval. They missed the entire haystack. Why should they be surprised - anybody be surprised they missed the needle?

MATTINGLY: I do want to point out, we're watching live pictures of Gaza City. You see the smoke plumes. It has been of a particular degree of intensity over the course of the last several minutes. It has been continuous over the last several days. But you can see the realities of what's happening on the ground right now.

I just want to swing back around to this quickly. The direct connection between Iran and Hamas, I don't think there's any question about the level of support that Iran has provided. I think 100 to 200 million is often the number that's tossed earned. U.S. officials have labeled them a terrorist organization as well. It is a different level of connection than Hezbollah has. I think the Sunni and Shia difference, as you point out, is notable.

And I think - I guess my question, beyond "The Wall Street Journal" story is just deciding, this must be what they wanted. Iran, to some degree, thrives on the insecurity that these groups and their ability to create terror presents. This is a very different situation. This is a potential geopolitical realignment depending on how this turns out. You think Iran wants that?

BOLTON: Well, that's what Iran wants. Of course. This is - this is a struggle within Islam between the Shia side and the Sunni side. Israel happens to be in the center of it. The Ayatollah Khamenei, the supreme leader of Iran, said a day or two ago, I kiss the hands of the people who did this.

You know, how exactly it was done, was there a written execute order delivered by the Iranians, we don't know that. But if anybody thinks that Hamas acted on their own, or without approval from Iran, I think they misunderstand why Iran has given them all these weapons over the years.

And let's also be clear, they fired thousands of rockets into Gaza -- from Gaza into Israel. Hezbollah is reported to have tens of thousands of rockets. I've seen public reports of 100,000 or more. So, this is no cost to Iran.

[08:40:00]

No Iranians have died. But 1,000 or more Israelis have died. They've used Hamas as cannon fodder. And I think both Israel and the United States need to take that into account strategically. The administration is twisting itself into a pretzel to avoid pointing the finger at Iran because they know if they do, then they're going to have to do something.

HARLOW: Is it not important to be absolutely sure?

BOLTON: This is not a court of law. The thousand Israelis who were killed -

HARLOW: No, given what the reaction could be.

BOLTON: That's right. But where do the weapons come from? This is like saying if you see somebody give somebody else a gun and insist that they actually have to pull the trigger before they're an accessory to murder.

HARLOW: Can I ask you -- it's very notable that Secretary Blinken -- did you see the remarks this -

BOLTON: I did.

HARLOW: You saw them.

So, the - notable that he added in, standing side by side, no daylight between he and Netanyahu, how also saying how Israel does this matters. A real question of what is next and how it will be carried out.

BOLTON: Well, I think it's going be very difficult in Gaza. When you have terrorists who are not only willing to commit terrorism against the Israelis but against their own people by storing missiles, ammunition in schools and churches and mosques, when they've used their own people as human shields in the past, when they're doing it right now, this is not going to be easy.

And I think that comes directly from the Iranians as well. This is where they started the revolution, by seizing our embassy employees back in 1979. This is state sponsored terrorism, and the Iranians support it.

I'll just say it again, the Ayatollah Khamenei, the supreme leader, those words mean something, said, I kissed the hands of the Hamas people. And the administration, I think, sent a craven signal to the Iranians by buying six American hostages to the tune - five American hostages to the tune of $6 billion, $1.2 billion apiece. That's the price on the Americans now held by Hamas, and by covering up something I'm not sure has ever been reported on CNN, forgive me if I'm wrong, but that the chief Iranian - negotiator with Iran for the administration, Rob Malley, had his security clearance lifted by the State Department's Bureau of Diplomatic Security in April. The White House has stonewalled that. They have resisted even evidence printed in "Semifor" on the website, in "Tablet" magazine, of an Iranian influence operation. Some of whose members are still employed by the United States government. One of the least reported stories by the big media in the country today. There's a --

MATTINGLY: Can I just -

BOLTON: This is a very serious situation.

MATTINGLY: I understand what you're saying. CNN reported on Rob Malley, both the investigation and losing his security clearance. I think we actually broke some of those stories as well.

But to the broader point you're trying to make, two things. One, it's not a court of law but it is American lives. And I think caution -- whether or not you agree with it, based on the last 20 years, I think there's some rationale for that to some degree. But also on the prisoner exchange, the counter is Americans are coming home and seeing their families. And --

BOLTON: But more Americans are in danger now, aren't they? Your blue passport is now worth $1.2 billion. The responsibility of the president is to take care of all Americans. And we, obviously, feel for the people who or hostages, whose families are worried about them. What about the Americans who have just been taken hostage? What about other Americans who will be taken hostage?

The issue is not whether Israel strikes Iran right now. Not today. Not tomorrow. Do it at a time of its choosing. But right now Iran is getting this for free. And the lesson is, we are so cautious that we're not even willing to go back at least so far to announce we're going to enforce the sanctions, which remain in effect against Iran, and which they've been violating with impunity during this administration.

MATTINGLY: Right. And there's a bipartisan move on Capitol Hill to do just that.

HARLOW: To do that.

MATTINGLY: Which will be interesting to watch as well.

Ambassador, we're out of time, but we do appreciate it, always.

BOLTON: Glad to be here.

MATTINGLY: Thank you.

HARLOW: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Well, this morning, Israeli strikes over Gaza, Israel vowing no electricity, water or fuel for Gaza until all the hostages are returned safely. A look at the devastation inside Gaza, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:47:13]

HARLOW: Happening now, Israeli strikes over Gaza. At least 1,300 people have been killed in Gaza, more than 6,000 injured, according to the Palestinian health ministry. Israel continues a total blockade of food, fuel and supplies now into

Gaza and health officials there are warning the hospital system is on the brink of collapse.

Ben Wedeman joins us from southern Lebanon.

But, Ben, you have reported extensively throughout Gaza in prior conflicts. So, you know better than almost anyone in this world, outside of those living there right now, what this total blockade means in the next 48, 72 hours for lives.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I mean, already the main power plant for Gaza, Poppy, has gone down yesterday afternoon at 2:00 p.m. And what we're hearing is in the hospitals, for instance, they're running out of the fuel for the generators they use as a backup when the supply -- the municipal connection goes down. So, what we understand is that they are - they are going to have trouble basically being hospitals.

In fact, there's a statement from the Red Cross, which came out, and I'll read it to you. "As Gaza loses power, hospitals lose power, putting newborns in incubators and elderly patients on oxygen at risk. Kidney dialysis stops and x-rays can't be taken. Without electricity, hospitals risk turning into morgues." So, the situation already dire is getting worse by the minute.

Now, just sort of a bit of personal perspective. I can tell you, every time you go to Gaza, wherever you go, there are kids everywhere. There's so many kids that schools run in two shifts to provide them with education. Forty percent of the population is under the age of 15. So, when we're talking about cutting off food, cutting off water, cutting off electricity and fuel, basically, you're talking about 40 percent of the population which has no say in this current mess, is going to suffer.

The population density in Gaza is 21,000 people per square mile. That's six times the density of Washington, D.C. So, in addition to all of the things that have been cut off, that are not available or are running out in Gaza, you have the definite, almost the inevitable fact that Israel is going to be launching a massive ground invasion of this small strip of land with just 2 million people on it.

So, I can tell you, most people in Gaza don't even support Hamas. They're sick of it. They suffered under it for years. But now they are paying the price for this war in ways that I think it's hard to even convey, especially given the fact that we can't be in Gaza ourselves.

[08:50:09]

The Israelis, obviously, closed off all access. The Egyptians have as well.

Poppy.

HARLOW: Ben, thank you for that perspective. It is incredibly important for people to understand. MATTINGLY: Well, Secretary of State Antony Blinken pledged that the

United States would never falter from its support for Israel and compared Hamas to ISIS. Next, we'll speak to someone who knows the brutality of Hamas militants firsthand. They nearly killed her in 2010. Her harrowing story ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTINGLY: Not even a week after Hamas' horrific terror attack on Israel, the war is intensifying and Israel is pressuring Hamas with an unrelenting bombing campaign in Gaza. There are still up to 150 people being held hostage and Hamas is threatening to execute them on camera. As we hear the stories coming out of Israel, our next guest says the trauma she suffered from a Hamas attack more than a decade ago is resurfacing. Tal Hartuv, and her friend, Kristine Luken, who was Christian, were on a hike in Jerusalem in 2010 when two Hamas members disguised as Israel police brutally attacked them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAL HARTUV, SURVIVED HAMAS MACHETE ATTACK IN 2010: And then we see this light out of the corner of my eye. And it's not God and it's not my life flashing before me. You know, it's the sun on his machete. And I realize he's going to behead me. I just realized then somehow that the only -- that people die with their eyes open. And I must play dead. So, I made a moral choice, and I tried not to move and I kept my eyes open and I watched like 2 meters away, no more - no more than 2 meters, Kristine was on her back, and he's hacking her up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Now, the attackers left, but as Tal laid there playing dead, already stabbed multiple times with the machete, they came back. One flipped her over and stabbed her one more time in the chest, just milliliters from her heart.

We want to warn you, the pictures you are about to see are graphic.

Tal was left with 13 machete wounds, more than 30 broken bones, a crushed sternum, a collapsed lung, and many more injuries. She was able to carry herself all the way to her car, barefoot, with her hands still bound. She says she just wanted to die somewhere where her body would be found. Unfortunately, her friend Kristine did not survive the attack.

Tal Hartuv joins us now.

It's important to note, not just a survivor, she is an educator for the Yad Vashem The World Holocaust Remembrance Center in Jerusalem.

I see your reaction. I can't imagine what the memories of your experience bring back to you, bring forth to you. But particularly in this moment, what has this week been like for you?

TAL HARTUV, SURVIVED HAMAS MACHETE ATTACK IN 2010: It's been hell on earth. At the moment I'm feeling anxious, grief stricken, heartbroken, traumatized and also resolved, determined, full of hope because I think I belong to the most beautiful and amazing people in the entire history of the universe. And as I was just coming home today, I saw the streets where with -- there were children out there with Israeli flags and the amount of philanthropy work going on and volunteering is absolutely incredible.

[08:55:10]

And I'm telling you, we cannot afford to lose this war, all right, because if Israel loses the war, the whole of western civilization loses too. And the only reason I flinched, you introduced me as the - from the Yad Vashem. But I'm not speaking on behalf of the Yad Vashem. That must be very, very clear. I'm speaking as an independent civilian and a survivor of a brutal machete attack.

MATTINGLY: I completely understand. Didn't mean to attribute that to be the case.

But I also - the - Yad Vashem is an extraordinarily important place for people to recognize.

To the point that you made about how you're feeling, particularly the second half, the resiliency that -- it's what we're seeing - it's almost the through line what we're seeing from the entire -- not just Israel population but also American Jews as well, the kind of fortitude for what comes next. Why do you think that is?

HARTUV: There is hope (ph). Well, I tell you why it is concerning the Jewish people, because we've had 3,000 years of this, all right. I mean these pogroms - and this is a pogrom in every sense - these - as the secretary of state also spoke about that, these pogroms are nothing new. They began in the seventh century with the rise of Islam. And at this point I'll do a segment (ph) and tell you all that it was a Muslim surgeon who saved my life and that more Muslims have been murdered by Islamic terrorist than any other ethnic group, all right? The Jewish people have been slaughtered by Muslim terrorists for hundreds of years, by Christians in the crusade (ph), by Nazi Europe and their collaborators We're used to that and we'll always have to reinvent ourselves.

In fact, one of your reporters, Joann Liten (ph), wrote a book about reinvention, and that's exactly what Israel has had to do time and time again. And following the absolute savagery - absolute savagery that my people have witnessed. This is a -- what do you call - a - you're a (INAUDIBLE) but I've only got one chance. This is not a war against (INAUDIBLE) Hamas. That is on the micro level of (INAUDIBLE), right. . This is the war against savagery or civilization. These are the sides, talking about both sides, the what aboutism. It's savagery or civilization. It's - it's evil versus good. It's day versus night. It's cruelty versus kindness. Or it's - it's life versus death.

And I have to tell you, with all respect, Phil, I mean, really, CNN, I've seen how - how much PTSD your own reporters have. Now, when - (INAUDIBLE) from my experience, I only see one way that this stuff will stop, all right. First of all, ,and it will relate to the good American public, that there is no moral equivalent to innocent Gazans being killed by Israeli bombs than Jewish babies being beheaded and families being burned, OK. One is a case of murder, the other cases is a kill.

And we -- I think the way through this is to stop the moral equivalency that people might do by providing platforms to the other side because the only other side is wickedness. It's absolute wickedness.

And the other thing I see, I got a text from friend of mine. A Jewish woman in Britain who said, Tal, my children are terrified. In London. Why? Because you -- you have freedom of speech. And America is the greatest democracy in the world. And America should allow freedom of speech. But with freedom of speech comes responsibility. And if what you are espousing is causing people to feel terrified and feel that their lives are threat, and they really are under threat, then these same protesters, in the name of free speech, should be arrested and charged with incitement to terrorism.

I mean that. And I mean that for the goodness of the Muslim community as well because there are so many decent, wonderful Muslims people who are terrified now of being associated with these barbarians. I mean you can't have the cake and eat it too. There has to be very, very moral clarity here. Not giving platforms to the second side. Not this what about.

You know, it's like saying, well, what was Israel - Israel wondering (ph). It's like the Me Too movement where you blame the victim. I'm just passionate about this, you know. I'm in pain and -

MATTINGLY: No, I understand. And with both personal and lived experiences that underscore the passion. I would note that you point out that Muslim friends of yours that don't want to be associated with this. I think Gazan civilians don't want to be associated with this either. They don't have anywhere to go. And that's not an equivalency issue.

We've only got 20 seconds left.

[09:00:01]

I understand this is a much broader, longer and more complex debate. I think - it's not even a debate.

HARTUV: (INAUDIBLE). We've only got 20 seconds, so let's say this. One more thing I'd like to see. I'd like an inquiry to Unra (ph), where have all their millions of dollars gone when they're supposed to providing education to the Palestinians. And the Unrad (ph) education, what is the fruit of it. It's these barbarians who crossed over our border and murdered my people.

MATTINGLY: Tal Hartuv, we appreciate your personal story and sharing it. Thanks so much for your time.

HARTUV: Sure (ph).

HARLOW: And thanks to all of you for being with us today. We continue to follow the breaking news all day here on CNN.

"NEWS CENTRAL" is next.