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Civilians Steam into Hospital After Strikes; Mental Health Amid Violence in Israel; Rep. Michael Lawler (R-NY) is Interviewed about Speaker Fight; Egypt Agrees to Allow Humanitarian Aid. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired October 19, 2023 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Southern Gaza. This video is hard to watch. This is a video of death and destruction and people maimed and lives forever changed. People streaming now into a hospital in Khan Younis. The interior ministry in Gaza says 13 were killed in a blast. They are blaming an Israeli strike. We don't know the number of dead or injured. We just know what they're staying right now. The IDF spokesperson, Doron Spielman, responded to questions about this to CNN just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJOR DORON SPIELMAN, SPOKESMAN, ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES: These are not people that we can trust with information. I'm not saying that nothing happened there. I have no information about it. However, we've learned from the hospital incident, we cannot trust what they say because they simply have no problem deceiving the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: CNN, at this moment, cannot confirm for you what caused the blast at this point or who was behind it. We simply - we don't know. We know that it happened. We know that people are killed. And - and that's a huge tragedy. We don't yet know who's responsible for if it was the IDF, what they were trying to do with that airstrike.

CNN's Salma Abdelaziz joins us live now with more.

So, Salma, what do we know, and do you anticipate getting more answers from the IDF or Hamas about in?

SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, let's just focus on what's happening on the ground, Erin, because regardless of the accusations being traded back and forth, the reality on the ground is that there are some 2 million people, half of them children, that are trapped in an urban war zone as these two warring parties literally exchange explosions, exchange fire.

The images we're playing right now, as you mentioned, you are disturbing, but they are of people streaming into an overwhelmed healthcare system. Hospitals are absolutely on the brink in Gaza. Some of them warning that they're soon going to run out of fuel, that they're already running out of medical supplies. Doctors were telling us that they were performing surgeries without painkillers on the floors of some of these hospitals. That's the medical treatment that these victims will receive when they enter this Khan Younis hospital.

And the location here is extremely significant. Khan Younis is in the south of the Gaza Strip. These were areas that families, civilians were told to flee towards this weekend by the Israeli military for their safety. So, families went there. I think about 500,000 people went there hoping to find that refuge, to absolutely not see that at all. They continue to face death, continue to face destruction in those areas.

The other significant thing to take away here, when we're talking about southern Gaza is that's where the Rafah border crossing is. You'll remember President Biden just announced this deal that will allow some trucks into Gaza through the Rafah border crossing. That could complicate those efforts if there is continued fighting.

We already have from rights group that there has been destruction to the Rafah border crossing, to the roads leading to it, caused by Israeli airstrikes. That humanitarian aid is absolutely crucial. Rights groups say every single hour counts. And, again, when you're looking at those people, trapped, sealed into the Gaza Strip essentially by this complete siege, by the closure of the Rafah border crossing, rights groups accusing this offensive by Israel of being collective punishment on this enclave.

BURNETT: Salma, thank you very much.

And, Phil and Poppy, you know, as Salma points out, there are just -- when you think about 2 million people, right, 20 trucks now are apparently - if -- if it opens up, the Rafah border, for those 20 trucks to come in, as Biden has said Sisi has agreed to, if that occurs, it's 20 trucks.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Right.

BURNETT: There is nobody coming out. No American citizens, Nobody coming out, right? You just have to -- it's so important I know for all of us to just remember, just the agony and anguish and fear that those people have. And there is right now no hope even for any - any getting out.

HARLOW: Yes, and the fact that you pointed out, that's in the south, right, where so many people were told to flee.

BURNETT: Yes.

HARLOW: Erin, we'll get back to you as soon as we can.

With us now, our chief medical correspondent and host of "The Chasing Life" podcast, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. No better doctor to have at the table in a moment like this. You've covered war zones in which you've done brain surgery in war zones, from Lebanon to Israel to Afghanistan.

I mean, we're hearing stories of doctors performing surgery with no anesthesia.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. These hospitals are ready. Even before this happened, there's no system for redundancy. They're always full. And, obviously, there's fewer supplies now, but it's always a really tough situation in many of these hospitals in the Middle East. Add to that the fact now that they are targeted.

You know, when I first started doing this, you know, some 25 years ago now, if you had a red cross on your truck, that was safe haven. There were international humanitarian sorts of codes of ethics.

I remember in 2006 I was covering the Lebanese Israeli war and someone took a shot at the truck that we were in which had a red cross on it. And that was the first time I sort of realized that there are no rules in situations like this.

[08:35:01]

And hospitals that are in the war zone become targets.

In fact, Sara Sidner did a great report about hospitals underground in Tel Aviv. That started happening in Lebanon about 25 years ago because hospitals, some of the most precious commodities, quickly become battlefields, they have to - they have to go underground to try and preserve the resources.

I'll tell you something else. You know, I've covered natural disasters. I've covered conflicts. They're both terrible. The thing about conflicts though is that the targeting of that, that really messes with the mental health of the clinicians and the people who are trying to do this work. So, they are going to save lives, oftentimes strangers' lives, and they are saying to their spouses when they leave, today I may die in order to save the life of someone I don't know. It's really, from a burnout standpoint and sort of mental health standpoint, it is really significant.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: You mentioned the mental health. You know, you have - I think your - this episode this week, your podcast, "Chasing Life," you talk to a mental health expert about the anxiety, fear, stress that comes from the news, right? Obviously, a different degree from what you're describing in Gaza for health care officials, but everyone is seeing this. Everyone is dealing with this. What did you learn?

GUPTA: Even from afar, if you're witnessing this, as we all have been, you guys have been witnessing it constantly, as have I, that can have an impact on your brain. Obviously, it's worse for people who are on the ground that are seeing it firsthand. But even witnessing the images on television.

What is interesting is here, and I brought this brain model to give you an idea, but you have two areas of the brain that are relevant here. One is the amygdala, which is the emotional center of the brain, and that's going to activates no matter what just by seeing some of these images. And what happens as a result of the amygdala is that you're sort of bypassing the frontal lobes, the judgment. You're basically just a reactionary, emotional sort of person at that point. And as Gail Saltz, who is a psychiatrist said, you are not in your wise mind at that point. You're not making rational decisions. It's all emotional. That's no surprise.

I think the surprising part is it can happen anywhere. She has all sorts of suggestions on what to do about it. Here's some of what she told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. GAIL SALTZ, NEW YORK PRESBYTERIAN HOSPITAL: I'm agreeing with the American Psychological Association and other organizations that have come out to say, hey, take these social media apps off your kids' phone for a while. But I would also say for the adults, it may be a time to remove for yourself. And I'm not saying, hey, crawl under a rock and have no idea what's going on. I'm not advocating for that. But I am advocating for perhaps not scrolling through on the social media where there's no trigger warning, there's no warning, it's just a constant diet of really upsetting images.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: You want to be an informed person, but you want to take care of your mental health. That doesn't mean just going under a rock, as Dr. Saltz said.

One thing she also said, and I'll just share this with you quickly is, the idea of mental health self-care. When you brush your teeth, you take care of your skin, how do you take care of your mental health? How do you even know?

Passed deep breathing is something anybody can do. And I don't mean to -- this may sound like I'm minimizing things, but it makes such an impact. Five seconds in through your nose and then seven seconds, two extra seconds, out through your mouth. Those two extra seconds, that's when your heart rate lowers, that's when your stress lowers, that's when your cortisol levels lower. Do that ten times. I mean you guys should do it.

HARLOW: Helpful.

GUPTA: I've been doing it. I always do it when I'm in war zones. Anybody who's watching these images can do it. Do it with your kids.

MATTINGLY: There are apps.

GUPTA: There are apps.

MATTINGLY: Good breathing apps. Not that I would know but --

GUPTA: But this is something you can -- I did right before I came on the set right now.

MATTINGLY: No, Sanjay does it, so I feel OK saying I also do breathing exercises. GUPTA: Yes.

HARLOW: I do, too.

GUPTA: Rough work.

HARLOW: That was so helpful to hear what she said about what we have to do for our kids but also for yourselves.

GUPTA: Yes. Absolutely. We don't think about it sometimes because you can't measure your own mental health. We don't pay as much attention to it.

HARLOW: That's right.

GUPTA: Pay attention.

HARLOW: Thank you, Sanjay.

GUPTA: You got it. Yes.

MATTINGLY: Well, 22 Republicans voting against Jim Jordan yesterday in his bid to become the next House speaker. If you're keeping count, that's actually a higher number than the first round. Congressman Mike Lawler is one of those 22 Republicans. He's going to join us next.

Stay with us.

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[08:40:58]

MATTINGLY: Well, new this morning, multiple Republican sources telling us that Congressman Jim Jordan is poised to lose even more support if he goes through with a third vote today. In yesterday's vote, 22 of his fellow Republicans voted against him. That's up from 20 who rejected his bid the day before.

Joining us now, Republican congressman from New York, Mike Lawler. He voted against Jordan twice. Instead, voting for the ousted speaker, Kevin McCarthy.

Congressman, I appreciate your time.

Is there anything Jim Jordan can do to get you to vote in support of him?

REP. MICHAEL LAWLER (R-NY): Well, as I said to Jim last week, the fundamental issue, frankly, is not who the speaker is. It is the ability of the conference to work together. You have 221 members. And throughout the course of the year, around 20 folks have undermined the conference by voting down rules, by delaying the vote in January for speaker, by voting to vacate the chair, by refusing to support a conservative CR that would have cut spend big 8 percent and helped secure our border. And so, you know, the frustration among many is the ability to govern. And that, to me, is the focus. And so, as I said to Jim last week, if you want to be able to advance

this forward, you have to get those 20 folks together with folks in swing districts and find a way forward in terms of legislation because that's what the fundamental issue is.

MATTINGLY: And so your no vote, I think, would seem to say that he hasn't been able to do that.

I think the bigger question right now is, nobody -- tell me who can get 217 votes in your conference? Like, just to be blunt about it. There's no one.

LAWLER: Look, right now there's nobody that's at 217 The closest person that I think could get there is Kevin McCarthy. And I still fundamentally believe he's the right person to lead our conference.

You know, Matt Gaetz is the dog that caught the car. There was no plan after the removal of McCarthy. He just hoped the rest of the conference would solve the problem for him that he created. But you have a real challenge here. And especially after the removal of McCarthy, after blocking Steve Scalise, there's a lot of frustration within the conference.

So, to me, at the end of the day we need to come together. We need to get book to work. If we can't get 217 in the immediate, then we need to empower Patrick McHenry to serve temporarily as speaker so that we can move the appropriations bills, we can deal with border security, we can deal with aid to Israel and Ukraine.

MATTINGLY: Right.

LAWLER: If you don't open up the House floor, then we're in paralysis and gridlock. And that, obviously, is not good for the American people. It's not why I was elected to be here. You know, I'm here to govern. And that's what we have to get back to.

MATTINGLY: Right. I think there's clearly been momentum moving behind I think Congressman Joyce's proposal about kind of empowering the speaker pro-tem, Patrick McHenry.

There has also been a framing by conservatives that that would be selling out, that would be working with Democrats instead of finding a solution. A solution they can't currently point to.

But it has kind of also given life to the threats that some of your colleagues have gotten because of their opposition to Jim Jordan. Have you received any of those threats? Your family received any of those threats?

LAWLER: No. And, you know, certainly, look, voters are entitled to reach out to offer their opinion, to voice their frustrations. I respect that. And I accept that.

Obviously, people should not be issuing death threats to members of Congress or anyone. But the one thing I would say, the idea that this is somehow selling

out or, you know, the uniparty striking, let's be clear, the only reason we're in this mess is because eight Republicans teamed up with 208 Democrats to do this, to throw the House into chaos. So, we wouldn't be here but for that.

And Patrick McHenry is a Republican. He's been a Republican his whole life. He's served in Congress nearly 20 years.

[08:45:03]

He is well respected across the broad spectrum of the House. He would be able to do the job effectively and efficiently. And the bottom line is, we need to get back to work.

MATTINGLY: Right.

LAWLER: So, this is not about selling out or, you know, striking a deal with the Democrats. It's a Republican speaker who is going to govern as a Republican. We just need to get back to work.

MATTINGLY: Right, a very conservative Republican who also just wants to be the House Financial Services chairman.

Congressman, do you want -- do you expect a move towards the Joyce proposal, towards empowering Patrick McHenry today?

LAWLER: Look, I -- if we can't get to 217 today, we need to get the House floor back up and running. I have a bill in the House Foreign Affairs Committee today that we're marking up to sanction Iran and Iranian petroleum even further. We need to be moving these bills on the House floor given the situation in Israel.

So, there's a lot of work to do. And if we can't come to an immediate consensus on a speaker, then we need to empower Patrick to govern. And - and that's, as far as I'm concerned, the most important thing we can do today.

MATTINGLY: All right, New York Republican Congressman Mike Lawler, appreciate it. Thank you.

LAWLER: Thank you.

HARLOW: So, President Biden has reached a significant verbal breakthrough on providing humanitarian aid to Palestinians facing dire conditions. That aid, though, has not yet actually been allowed through the Rafah crossing. When that happens is crucial.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:50:37]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NOUR Al-ATTAR, HAMAD CITY RESIDENT: So currently we're at the border. I've been coming almost every day on the hopes that it's going to open. But, unfortunately, every day there's no news. We don't know whether we can leave or stay.

So, I ask - I ask the people out there, the people who have a heart, who do care, to find us a safe haven, or at least get us out of Gaza.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That was a man named Nour Al-Attar in Rafah, right at the border crossing with Egypt. He, like many Palestinians, are desperate to escape as Israel and Hamas continue this war, with Egypt and other countries at this point unwilling to take in Palestinian refugees.

Egypt's president said this week Gazans must, quote, stay steadfast and remain on their land. And while Egypt is keeping refugees out, the country has agreed to open that southern border for humanitarian aid to go in. That's according to President Biden. Much more on this and the big picture, we have our senior global affairs analyst Bianna Golodryga with us now.

Thank you for being here.

So now it's about proving it, right? It's about El-Sisi proving what Biden says that he agreed to.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Yes.

HARLOW: That's what matters so much.

GOLODRYGA: Remember the meeting that Biden had hoped to have with the leaders was canceled.

HARLOW: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: So, this was the big takeaway deliverable that Biden came back with, was at least getting, what, 20 trucks, I mean the least you can get through this crossing. Anything would be helpful for the people who are desperate. The innocent people who are desperate for aid inside.

But, you know, taking a big picture look, this goes back many, many decades. And, remember, in 1967, when Israel was attacked by Egypt, by Jordan, by Syria, Israel walked away with more territory, including the West Bank, including Gaza.

Now, since then, Egypt and Jordan are both saying we are home, as you noted in the intro, to millions of refugees ourselves. Egypt, I believe, houses about 9 million refugees, and Jordan over 1 million. The United States providing aid to both countries for years as well, which is why the president is leaning on that aid in the push to get Egypt specifically to participate here.

But Egypt and El-Sisi said yesterday, we're not taking any more of these Palestinians in for a number of reasons. Both Egypt and Jordan are fearful that this may be a push by the Israelis to permanently displace these Gaza residents. Israel saying no we will have them return but after the war. They're not really buying that. El-Sisi yesterday said, and I don't know if it was in gest or what, that Israel should send them to the south of the country, to the Negev Desert. That is a nonstarter. So, going through the particular options here, it speaks to a bigger issue. These are countries that have normalized relationships with Israel, Egypt back in 1979, Jordan in 1994, and they're saying that if these people, if these -- some of them terrorists, cross into our border, this war could expand beyond just Hamas and Israel to perhaps even within Egypt and Jordanian borders and that that could really impact whatever peace treaties they have. So clearly there's a lot to sift through here, but you understand how convoluted this issue is.

MATTINGLY: Well, and then you had the Iranian influence as well. That plays a role in all of this. And we have been talking about the risks of escalation. And you talk about the countries that border Israel, where they stand, why they stand there, and why their public statements may differ from where you think they would be diplomatically. And you also have - we've talked a lot about Hamas, Palestinian and Islamic Jihad, which Iran supports. Hezbollah, which is absolutely a proxy of Iran, but it's also Iranian militia groups in Iraq, in Syria, Bahrain as well, Yemen. There has been a war - an ongoing war in Yemen for a long period of time. A ceasefire right now. What does that do to the risks here?

GOLODRYGA: Well, it destabilizes the whole region, which is why people looking at this say that Iran stands to gain the most from any instability here because you speak to the leaders of Egypt, of Jordan, of UAE, the countries that have normalized relations with Israel. Yes, behind the scenes - "The Economist" has a piece out this morning -- behind the scenes they said they've been shocked by what these leaders say to them privately about how they feel about Hamas. No different, they said, than some right-wing extremists in Israel.

But when it comes to the people on the streets, they are largely pro- Palestinian, pro-Palestinian cause. So, while the leaders may have been trying to circumvent, alah (ph) Netanyahu, the Palestinian case, in order to maintain relations and build on relationships, perhaps even normalizing relations with the Saudis, this really threw a wrench into that cause.

[08:55:08]

And if you look at who would benefit the most from that, it would be Syria - it would be Iran, which is why so much of the focus is on northern Israel now and what, if anything, Hezbollah would do given the green light from Iran.

HARLOW: And just to put a button on it, that point, the Israelis, IDF, said overnight that their - the skirmishes, is the word they used, between Hezbollah and the south of Lebanon and the north of Israel got much more frequent and worse in the last 24 hours.

GOLODRYGA: Yes.

HARLOW: What does that tell you?

GOLODRYGA: Really testing the waters here to see how far Israel would go. Skirmishes they could handle, but could they handle a two front war at the scale that Hezbollah specifically is capable of. Now even the Hezbollah - the leader, after 2007, said that that conflict to end that war was very costly for them and they did not expect to see the intensity coming at them from Israel. Israel saying that they could do the same now but this would be a costly battle. And what's the U.S. going to do now that we've got two carrier strikers right in the region. So, a lot to watch out for.

HARLOW: Bianna, thank you, as always. Very helpful.

MATTINGLY: Well, this just in, the U.S. embassy in Lebanon is telling Americans to leave Lebanon as soon as possible while commercial options are available. We will keep you posted on that message and what's behind it.

"CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right after this break.

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