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CNN This Morning

Israel Moves into Gaza; Abdallah Bou Habib is Interviewed about the War in Israel; Fareed Zakaria Looks at the War in Israel. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired October 20, 2023 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: In the West Bank. Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: You're looking at images from just moments ago on the streets of Ramallah in the West Bank where it is the middle of the afternoon. It is after mosque on a Friday. Mass protests.

Our Sara Sidner on the ground reporting there. We'll get to her shortly.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Well, as those protests continue throughout the region, we're also seeing Israeli forces apparently on the brink of entering Gaza. A U.S. warship in the Red Sea has intercepted multiple missiles. U.S. military bases in Iraq and Syria have had to rappel attacks. There is just a very dynamic and fluid situation right now in the region.

With us now with a look on what's going on, CNN chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto.

Jim, I want to start with our reporting about a potential green light for the massing forces of the IDF to actually enter Gaza. What does that tell you?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, let's look at what we're already seeing down by the border. As you mentioned earlier, our Nic Robertson seeing these flares go up. Typically you launch these flares to get better vision as your forces make plans for going in. And we're beginning to hear from Israeli politicians what the goal of this operation is.

We've known for some time, and our teams have witnessed, all the forces, all the armor, armored personnel carriers, tanks, arrayed around Gaza, particularly this northern area. And now Israeli politicians are publicly describing what the goal of this operation is. To go in, they're saying it may very well be a long war, but then create these barriers here around Gaza, basically a no man's land. They say it's going to be a free fire zone so that no one inside Gaza, in particular Hamas fighters, Islamic Jihad, et cetera, can get even close to the border. [08:35:02]

But also then, afterwards, reserving the right and the ability for Israeli forces to go back in as necessary. One of the Israeli politicians mentioned how things work with the West Bank. That's how it works now with the West Bank. Israeli forces, they go inside frequently. They carry out attacks frequently there against militants. They are basically setting up for the same thing when we look at what's happening in Gaza city now. And that, we should note, portends a difficult operation inside Gaza.

HARLOW: Jim, this and then the broader context of what is happening across the region, right?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: There has been activity involving U.S. warships.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Concerning Yemen. There is major concern about that. There has been active attacks by drones on U.S. bases in Iraq and in Syria. Can you put that all into context for us and the morning after the president's Oval Office address.

SCIUTTO: It gets to the threat here coming from two directions. So, let's look at what happened yesterday. Yesterday you had a U.S. destroy here off the coast of Yemen, saw projectiles, missile fired. At the time we first reported this, it wasn't clear where they were going. Were they targeting the USS Carney, the destroyer involved, or something else? We learned throughout the day what they were actually targeting, it seems, the U.S. believes, was Israel. And the Carney was able to shoot those missiles down before they got there.

Why is that important? Because the great fear is that this expands into a multifront conflict against Israel. Of course, you already had Hamas coming in from here. You have Hezbollah in the north. The idea of Iranian-backed Houthi rebels firing missiles from here and then perhaps from Iran self. Then you begin to see the precarious geographical position that Israel is in. That's the concern. You've already seen what you might call potshots taken at Israel, not a full- scale offensive, but it shows where the power is.

And then you mentioned U.S. forces, Poppy.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Here's the problem. You've got U.S. forces distributed around the region. They are in Syria. They are in Iraq. You have ships here in the Arabia - in the Red Sea, in the Arabian Gulf. Also now two carrier groups here. They are there to defend Israel, provide all the resources they can without getting involved directly. Sad fact is, though, they are potential targets. And yesterday we saw drones, rockets targeting U.S. forces in Iraq and Syria. Of course, concerns about U.S. ships down here and ships in the eastern Med. One point I would make, Poppy and Phil, Hezbollah, today, operating

out of Lebanon, has thousands, thousands upon thousands of missiles, and those missiles are capable of hitting ships.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: They hit an Israeli ship during the 2006 war. The concern is, could they attempt to do the same against U.S. ships here?

MATTINGLY: Jim, just take a step back contextually. When you're talking to your sources at the Pentagon and the national security establishment, do they feel like the kind of uptick we saw over the last 24 hours is, as you would frame it, potshots, just trying to harass, or do they feel like this is the start of an escalation?

SCIUTTO: At a minimum when I speak to folks at the Pentagon, it's a, we're here kind of message. We can get to you, right? And that's a danger - and they can, right? They - we - they - you have Iranian proxies in Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Iran, Lebanon, Gaza. They have a lot of opportunities to go after, not just of course Israel, but U.S. forces.

At this point, they don't see an escalation happening today, but it's possible. And that's the great concern here. And that's why you hear President Biden, whenever he speaks, and you heard it in his first comments, right, in just the days after this attack, if you're thinking about coming in, the president's words were, don't. And there's a lot of message sending with these forces that are going there.

But, listen, as you or the three of us know, having covered this - this area, these tensions for some time, there are leaders in these nations who are willing to take risks, right? And would they take that risk? It remains to be seen.

HARLOW: Yes.

Jim Sciutto, extremely helpful this morning. Thank you very much for all of that.

MATTINGLY: Thanks.

HARLOW: Well, clashes at the Lebanon/Israel border, that's north of Israel, over the past week have been raising fears about a wider regional war. Earlier today Israel announced a mandatory evacuation of an Israeli city near Lebanon, then pulled that back. We'll speak to Lebanon's minister of foreign affairs, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:43:18]

MATTINGLY: You're looking at live pictures in Ramallah and the West Bank and on the other side of the screen you're looking at pictures from a short while ago in Egypt. This is just part of what we're seeing throughout the region. In Ramallah, there have been protests. Our colleague, Sara Sidner, was just in the middle of one. But to the right of your screen you will see what is happening in Egypt where political parties throughout the state, for an issue that had often been banned, almost always banned by President El Sisi, protests nationwide, they are happening, they are justified, according to the Egyptian - the state political parties and media, and they are very significant. We'll keep an eye on those as the morning goes on.

HARLOW: Also this morning, the Israeli military tells CNN they have shot three militants on the border of Lebanon and are searching for another who tried to infiltrate the country. Tensions have been rising along the northern border of Israel for days as Israel trades missile fire with Hezbollah, an Iranian backed militant group based in Lebanon.

And, right now, Israel is also calling for the voluntary evacuation of a town near the border that is home to some 23,000 people. There is growing concern Hezbollah could open a second front against Israel in this war if Israel launches that ground incursion that is expected into Gaza, which is something a senior advisor to Benjamin Netanyahu said this morning Israel is ready for.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK REGEV, SENOR ADVISER TO ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU: And we're building up our forces. And we're - we're ready to move. And if you have interviewed any of those soldiers on the front, you know there's a determination to go and to do what needs to be done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Joining me now is Lebanon's minister for of foreign affairs, Abdallah Bou Habib. He is also the former Lebanese ambassador to the United States.

And Mr. Minister of Foreign Affairs, I appreciate your time this morning.

[08:45:03]

Let me begin with the question of what your government's response is this morning to this crossfire -- cross border fire coming from Hezbollah into Israel. I think even more importantly, what, if anything, is your government doing to rein in Hezbollah?

ABDALLAH BOU HABIB, LEBANESE FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, first, we have been very afraid, very worried that the war could spread to Lebanon. This is the last (INAUDIBLE) for us and we're trying to have peace (ph) in the (INAUDIBLE) Lebanon. The issue is that there are a lot of exchanges, bad exchanges between the groups in Lebanon and Israel.

Most accuse other of starting it. What we're asking is that for Israel to call for a ceasefire for 48 hours. If they do that, then we'll know exactly who's starting what.

So, really, we don't want war. We -- the government does not want war. We are dialoguing with the various groups. But it is uncontrollable because it depends all on what happened in Gaza. Gaza is a very important issue to a lot of people in the region, not only in Lebanon, but also in Syria and Jordan and Iraq.

So, what happened in Gaza, this excessive invasion of Gaza, it really is out of control. And that's why we are asking --

HARLOW: Foreign Minister, are you in touch - Mr. Foreign Minister, are you in touch, are you speaking with, actively speaking with Hezbollah militants trying to enact that deterrents that you're talking about right now, advocating for that deterrence?

BOU HABIB: No. We are talking with them all the time. And we are talking with the Iranians. And we're talking with the Syrians. Everybody. We are trying to stop the damage. But sometimes things get out of control, like what happened in southern (INAUDIBLE) -

HARLOW: Did - did we lose the connection?

BOU HABIB: So -

HARLOW: There withe go. Go ahead.

BOU HABIB: That's why we're asking for a ceasefire. Sorry. That's why we're asking for a ceasefire. That's why we're talking to the various partners. Most people there, you know, there is no war yet. Yes, there's skirmishes, but there's no war yet. All it all depends on the limitation or how do -

HARLOW: Well -

BOU HABIB: How far and how long would be the war in Gaza.

HARLOW: Yes. Well, look, this is what the -- just this morning one the spokespeople, Colonel Lerner for the IDF said, that basically they will hold your government responsible for any attack from Hezbollah. I just want you to listen to this and I want to give you a chance to respond.

Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. COL. PETER LERNER, SPOKESMAN, ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES: The government of Lebanon, anything that happens from their sovereign territory, they need to -- they are responsible for and they will be held accountable for.

This is a sovereign state. It has control over its borders. They have the responsibility to make sure that terrorists like Hezbollah, a terrorist army, does not launch attacks against Israel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: They put, Mr. Foreign Minister, that responsibility on - on you. BOU HABIB: I know. They said more than that. They said they will let

-- put -- turn Lebanon to the stone age and so on. You know, if they stop - you know, nobody is talking in Lebanon. Even Hezbollah is not saying anything in Lebanon, you know? The leader of Hezbollah did not make statement yet. If they stop talking, this -- they are making (INAUDIBLE) it works when there's talk. So, it's better for them to really call for a ceasefire. So - because -- they are a country. They (INAUDIBLE). So, let's, you know, let's call for a ceasefire and see what happens instead of threatening.

There is nowhere to threaten now because - because the damage would be worse for them, as much as for us. You know, it would be Lebanon, that's what we're afraid of, would be damaged, would be destructed. But the country is not going to be safe because all of these resistance forces have a lot of weapons and they are going to use them (INAUDIBLE).

HARLOW: Look, Mr. Foreign Minister -

BOU HABIB: Yes.

HARLOW: You -- you warned just several months ago that given the breakdown of the government in Lebanon, and it does not have a president right now, that if there were a breakdown further, that it could be worse in the situation, your words, than that between Israel and the Palestinians right now.

People that are looking (INAUDIBLE) at your government right now, criticizing it for ultimately having no say over whether your country is at peace or is at war, and - and that this is essentially a call that a paramilitary group, an unelected body, will ultimately make.

[08:50:05]

And I wonder what you say to that criticism.

BOU HABIB: I -- I say that not only Lebanon, every country in the region, if the situation gets worse in Gaza, every country in the region is not going to have much say. Every government in the region is not going to have much say of what happens in the street or on the borders with Israel. It's not an easy situation. And the Israelis should understand that.

The governments of this region, including that of Lebanon, despite the fact we don't have a president, we do not want war. We don't want to see destruction in our countries. But if things get out of hand, God knows what would happen. Not for us only, not for the countries of the region, also for Israel as well.

So, it is better to control it in Gaza because the people are interrelated here, politically and even blood wise. So, we - we cannot hold them from doing some revenge if - if really the situation in Gaza is going to be worse than what it is now.

HARLOW: Meaning, you cannot hold back Hezbollah, that's what you're saying? BOU HABIB: No, we are (INAUDIBLE). They don't want war.

HARLOW: OK.

BOU HABIB: We -- they do not want a war. But, I mean, you can't control it. It all depends, again, on what happens in Gaza, on the invasion of Israel to Gaza.

HARLOW: Mr. Foreign Minister of Affairs, Abdallah Bou Habib, I really appreciate your time in speaking with CNN this morning. Thank you.

BOU HABIB: Thank you very much. This afternoon.

HARLOW: This afternoon for you. That's right. Thank you.

BOU HABIB: Yes. Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Well, we've been showing you live images of ongoing protests in the West Bank. We're going to continue to discuss the global impact -- there's live images right there -- of the war unfolding right now between Israel and Hamas as the White House aims to deter wider escalation.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTINGLY: Welcome back.

This has been a very fast-moving week in Israel's war against Hamas. It started with Secretary of State Antony Blinken crisscrossing the Middle East. There was the hospital explosion in Gaza, and the subsequent fallout that then quickly took over the headlines midweek. That was followed by President Biden's historic trip to Israel where he showed full-throated support for the Israeli war effort and, of course, the canceled meeting in Amman, Jordan, that was supposed to occur. Now, pro-Palestinian protesters have - the protests have flared up across the region, and are leading into what could be a very eventful and consequential weekend.

Joining us now is CNN host Fareed Zakaria.

I actually want to start where Poppy left off with the foreign minister. The idea of leaders not having control, him saying I can't control what the street does. In Lebanon it's a little bit different in terms of Hezbollah's power versus the government's power, but what did you take away from that?

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS": I think it shows you the limits of Bibi Netanyahu's strategy -- for the last really 15 years he's been prime minister on and off for most of that time -- which has been, completely ignore the Palestinian issue, provide no path for Palestinian political rights, political settlement of some kind, and try to make peace with the Arabs. On the theory that particularly the Gulf Arabs don't really care about the Palestinians. They mouth the rhetoric, but they really don't care. And what you saw with that very good interview that Poppy did was that

there were limits to that strategy because even if they don't care, it is true that it is this great popular cause among the people of the Arab world.

[08:55:00]

And particularly if they feel there is no political path for the Palestinians, you know, that these people are living in miserable conditions, it makes them much more prone to support anything - and not -- to be absolutely clear, none of that condones the brutal terror attack of Hamas, but there is a political context, particularly to the Arab support.

So, these governments are all calculating, you know, how much do we give in. And, remember, many of these governments are not democracies. So, this is a way of letting out steam for popular views, anguish, anger.

HARLOW: You made a really interesting argument on your show last week and in your column. And I'm just going to read the crux of it about the strategic prize. And you said, the establishment of normal relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia would be the severest setback for Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran. Not a military setback. You are saying go forward with what everyone is essentially saying now is dead in the water.

ZAKARIA: So, if you think about it, what is Hamas reacting to? Hamas is reacting to the idea that Israel and the moderate Arab states are going to - you know, ally, have normal relations, have economic and technological exchanges. That there's going to be a kind of world of peace and prosperity. And for Hamas, a terror organization, this is terrible, right? So, they're -- they want to burn the house down.

The best repose to that would be continue to build that world of peace and prosperity. But in order to do it, you have to solve -- or at least be on a path to solving the Palestinian issue. You know, Netanyahu's approach fundamentally seems to assume that there - there is no issue. But there are 5.5 million Palestinians who live between the West Bank and Gaza and they do not really have political rights. And you can't just pretend that problem doesn't exist. If you can find a way to provide some political path there, restart relations -- you know, notice, none of the countries that have signed the Abraham Accords with Israel are breaking off ties yet. So, you can tell all these guys wanted to have relations with Israel. They understand that that's a bright future for them. It's a - you know, it's a win-win. But you've got to give them some path so that they don't seem as though they're trampling on Palestinian rights.

HARLOW: Yes.

MATTINGLY: That lack of path, I think, gets to a question we've been asking all week, which is, if Israel goes in, if they do what they say they plan to do to Hamas, with the military and political organization, what next? If you look at the West Bank and you look at how Abbas leads in his respect, not just with Israel, but also with his own people. We've seen protesters calling for his ouster. The Palestinian Authority is certainly not the strongest of governing institutions. What's next in Gaza? What's next in the West Bank?

ZAKARIA: You're absolutely right. And add to that complexity there have been a lot of settlers who have been going around and shooting Palestinians. I mean I can't remember the numbers, but it's, you know, dozens have died in the last six months. A bunch have died in the last few days. And so all that adds to this complexity. And, you know, it's important to remember, Abbas is largely unpopular because he's feckless, corrupt, but also because it's seen that he has promised, we'll recognize Israel, we will - you know, we will work with them, and he's gotten, from the Palestinian point of view, nothing for it. You know, so that's the problem here, which is that the -- you have delegitimized and undermined the one Palestinian partner you had who recognized you, renounced terror, was trying to work with you. And as people in Israel have reported, this was part of a strategy that Netanyahu had of building up Hamas to undermine the Palestinian Authority.

HARLOW: Right.

ZAKARIA: So that he could say, hey, there's no path. There's no peaceful path. We just have to kind of keep going. You know, it's - it -- what it makes you realize is that this is so fraught with complexity that the Israelis should really spend a lot of time thinking about the day after.

You ask what happens. So, let's assume everything goes well in this war. They take Gaza City. They take Gaza. Then what? Do they want to reoccupy Gaza? If they leave, Hamas will come back. If they stay, Hamas will launch terror attacks and an insurgency. We know that because they were in Gaza for 24, you know, decades, and that's exactly what happened. That's why they left.

HARLOW: What's the other path, then, Fareed?

ZAKARIA: I think that what -- in general, with terror, you know, the terrorists are trying to provoke an overreaction. They're trying -- that's what 9/11 - you know, that's what - that's the goal, to production a massive overreaction that then produces civilian casualties and people start siding with the terrorists.

Be strategic. Go in targeted. If you're trying to -- you know, the Israelis used to have a rule many, many years ago, that - that the goal that they would - they would bide their time and they would take out every terrorist who planned and executed this. Maybe that's several hundred people. Go after each single one. Be narrow. Be strategic. Imagine if we had done that after 9/11.

HARLOW: 9/11.

ZAKARIA: Instead of invading two countries, building up, you know a massive bureaucracy and spending what some estimate is $8 trillion.

[09:00:03]

Have we become more secure because of it?

HARLOW: Wow. And we heard the president with that warning last night again, learn from our mistakes after 9/11.

Fareed, thank you. So look forward to the show this weekend. Appreciate it.

ZAKARIA: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Well, just moments ago, the attorney for Kenneth Chesebro just arrived at an Atlanta area court. Chesebro is accused of being the architect of the fake electors scheme on -- and was indicted on seven criminal charges. And CNN just learned he was offered a plea deal. Jury selection in that trial is expected to begin today.

"CNN NEWS CENTRAL" continues right now.