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Israel: First Operational Use Of The "Steel Sting" Mortar Bomb; Israeli-American Nurse Chooses To Help Despite Danger; Sources: U.S. Seeking To Delay Israeli Ground Offensive Into Gaza For More Hostage Talks. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired October 23, 2023 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

FRED UPTON, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE (R-MI) (via Skype): Pennsylvania, as well as Arizona.

But let's face it. As you said, this is day 20. We're -- the world's afire. We can't pick a speaker when we have a Republican majority? We can't get our folks together?

This is going to have a big impact on the elections next year as people are just going to walk away from the --

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah.

UPTON: -- the Republican Party because it's a clown car. They can't govern. That's not what they want. They don't care if you have an R or a D next to your name, they want you to do the job.

And right now with Israel, Ukraine, the potential shutdown again coming up in just a couple of weeks, nothing has happened. This is ludicrous.

HARLOW: It's exactly the question I was going to ask you, Doug, is what price will Republicans pay for this?

I was in an Uber in Kentucky over the weekend and the Uber driver, who had served decades in the military -- the first thing he said to me -- and he didn't know I was a journalist yet -- he said, "Can you believe what is happening with Republicans in the House?" It's the first thing.

DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, FORMER RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Yeah. Look, we very proactively made our brand a very bad one throughout the country, and our only benefit right now is Joe Biden's numbers are also in the cellar as well.

And Poppy, I'll tell you, the last meeting I had in the House of Representatives before everything shut down for COVID was with Fred Upton and his Democratic colleague Debbie Dingell. They're great friends. They're both great members of Congress -- or were, in Congressman Upton's case. That's how things should work, and that's not how things have worked in Congress for a while now. Obviously, we're seeing that right now.

And we see so often in professional wrestling and in Battle Royales. The question is who is the last man standing? We could go through this process with no one standing and a stalemate that continues not just through this C.R. and with the shutdown, as the Congressman mentions looming, but also more long-term throughout the rest of this conference. We are in a completely unknown zone and we really just don't know what the answers are yet.

HARLOW: Yeah. Well, with November 17 -- the deadline around the corner to keep the government open.

Fred, your wife can put the fork down.

UPTOWN: (Laughing).

HARLOW: OK, appreciate it. Thanks

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, guys.

HEYE: Thank you.

So, overnight, the Israeli military ramping up airstrikes on Gaza, once again calling on civilians to evacuate south just as a third convoy of aid trucks heads toward that border. Why some rights groups say it is not nearly enough.

(COMMERCIAL)

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR, "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT": Welcome back. I'm Erin Burnett live in Tel Aviv, of course, along with Phil and Poppy.

And we are just getting some news in when we talk about the 320 airstrikes Israel launched overnight in Gaza about exactly how they are dealing with precision targeting. News that there is a new weapon that Israel is actually using in this fight that they had first deployed during this now 17-day war and deploying it nearly a dozen times -- their Magellan commando unit in charge of using this certain type of mortar or bomb.

I want to get to Nic Robertson in Sderot, Israel. Nic, this is new information into CNN about what exactly Israel is doing. What have you learned about this weapon and this unit that we understand is called the Magellan commando unit?

[07:35:00]

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yeah, a specialist unit using a new weapon -- a specialist new weapon, "Steel Sling" -- "Steel Sting." This is a weapon that really advances technologically the old-fashioned mortar. The old-fashioned mortar is sort of a close infantry tool. You can use it close to the front line or a little further back. It fires really high in the air. It goes right up and comes right down.

Now, typically, in the past, if you're using the old-fashioned version you need a forward spotter who can see where it's hitting, and it takes maybe three rounds for a good mortar team to put around precisely on a target. This new system apparently does away with that entirely. It is computer-controlled. You dial in the designated location of the target and this mortar fires and hits that target with pinpoint accuracy. That's what the IDF is saying.

So what does this mean? It means when they see a small Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad unit out in the field with a -- with an anti-tank weapon -- the sort of thing that was used yesterday to kill an IDF soldier -- they can pinpoint them precisely and hit them quickly and readily.

Now, we weren't aware of this being operational in the region and we've become used to hear -- the explosions, the detonations, missiles, and artillery. But this had a whole new sound. And when we first heard this weapon firing off we ducked for cover because it literally made this huge whoosh and went right over us and we didn't know what it was. We did hear it impact and --

BURNETT: Huh.

ROBERTSON: -- see its impact.

BURNETT: Yeah.

ROBERTSON: So this is something the IDF really hopes can help it target precisely small groups.

BURNETT: And Nic, it's interesting that you are saying you can actually, by audio, hear that it's very different. That your actual physical reaction -- your adrenaline reaction would be different obviously, very significant because you've been standing there the whole time. And, of course, in Ukraine, you hear artillery and are used to all of these sounds.

Just some context here, though, Phil. Three hundred twenty strikes overnight. They said 205, I think, the day before yesterday. So I'm just putting it out here to make a point. That's more than 500 strikes in any given 48 period and they've been running around that rate, right? Even the Palestinian health authority is not saying that there's anywhere near that many number of deaths a day.

So it just -- I'm making this point to make use of the word precision. That they are incredibly precise. And, in fact, it seems like in some cases, they are actually targeted at operation command centers, not necessarily at individual Hamas operatives, right -- but at structural or infrastructural points, right?

HARLOW: Absolutely.

Thank you, Erin. We'll get back to you very, very soon.

And with us now, editor and foreign affairs columnist at Bloomberg, Bobby Ghosh. And former foreign policy adviser to the Bush administration and Mitt Romney, and the co-author of a new book coming up, "The Genius of Israel," Dan Senor with us. Thank you both for being here very much.

I actually want to begin with what we heard from the King of Jordan, Dan, over the weekend. This is a U.S. ally but he was emphatic -- obviously, choosing his words carefully and sending a message. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING ABDULLAH II, JORDAN: The relentless bombing campaign underway in Gaza, as we speak, is cruel and unconscionable on every level. It is collective punishment of a besieged and helpless people. It is a flagrant violations of international humanitarian law. It is a war crime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: To hear that, coupled with our reporting that the U.S. is urging Israel to pause --

DAN SENOR, FORMER BUSH ADMINISTRATION FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER, CO- AUTHOR, "THE GENIUS OF ISRAEL": Um-hum.

HARLOW: -- to wait -- to try to allow more time to get hostages out. What -- and the -- and the IDF says there is no ceasefire, there is no pause.

SENOR: Yeah.

HARLOW: What is your read?

SENOR: So I think there are two things going on. When you hear leaders in the region making those statements, I think they're very concerned about the Arab streak getting hot, particularly the King of Jordan who is worried about real volatility in his own population in Jordan and whether or not the tensions between Israel and Gaza, as well as Hamas, could have cascading effects for his own security of his own power.

But leaders -- most of the leaders in the Arab world are quietly saying I hope Israel wipes out Hamas once and for all. So what they're saying publicly and what they're saying privately are two different things, particularly when you look into the Persian Gulf and the Sunni Gulf. They're hoping that Hamas is wiped out.

HARLOW: Yeah, but the question is the cost, right? I mean, this -- we heard Queen Rania, his wife, who is Palestinian --

SENOR: Yeah.

HARLOW: -- really concerned as well about the treatment of the Palestinian people in all of this.

SENOR: I -- look, I think there are legitimate concerns about the Palestinian civilians. The question is who's responsible for that? Who can ultimately control their fate? Is it Israel or is it Hamas? The U.S. administration's agenda is different. I believe the Biden

administration has minor, mild hope that they're going to get out some of the hostages, particularly the hostages with American passports. We saw two released last week. I think Hamas is playing a very clever game where they're starting to dribble out hostages. I think you'll see more of that over the next few days.

And so, the Biden administration is saying wait -- if we're going to start getting out a couple of hostages here and there every couple of days -- there's a family I'm meeting with today. Hersh Goldberg-Polin is a hostage who is here. I think he's been on CNN.

HARLOW: Yeah.

SENOR: And his parents are here today meeting with the U.N. Security Council. So a lot of these parents are organized, as well they should be. And the Biden administration is saying give it time.

[07:40:06]

This puts Israel in a real conundrum because they can wait and they can wait and they can wait. At some point is the concern that will undermine their own future operation -- and if all that's released at the end of it are hostages, except for those that are just Israeli passports.

MATTINGLY: Bobby, Dan gets at the complexity here, which as I've spent a lot of time trying to get my head around it. And while I am certainly not a foreign affairs expert of foreign policy expert, I've covered a lot of this stuff for long enough to know that this is very different given how many cross-cutting variables there seem to be.

You talk about the leaders in the region who might be saying something publicly for effect -- saying something differently. You said the U.S. wants hostages out but is also moving in significant force posture -- increases for deterrents purpose and also potentially, getting drawn into something bigger, while also trying to hug Israel and its leaders who they know are eventually going to launch a ground incursion.

How does this all move forward in the weeks ahead given what Dan is talking about -- the hostages, where the Israelis are, a ground incursion -- all these elements?

BOBBY GHOSH, EDITOR AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS COLUMNIST, BLOOMBERG: It moves forward very, very, very slowly until a ground offensive takes place, and then it moves very quickly. So that's the -- that's the nature of these things. Things happen slowly until they suddenly happen very, very quickly.

The triggering event now will be the ground invasion. Until then, there will be all this diplomacy going around it. They'll be more depending on how long this continues -- the sort of -- depending how much time Israel takes to launch the ground offensive. I imagine there will be more gatherings of regional leaders.

You know, Sec. Blinken will be on the road virtually all the time trying to get the -- herd all these cats together.

MATTINGLY: Right.

GHOSH: There will be a lot of negotiations behind the scenes involving the Qatari's four -- those hostages -- and there will be lots of conversations between the White House and the Netanyahu office.

MATTINGLY: When you say triggering -- I mean, my big question -- what does triggering mean? What does it trigger? And that's obviously the big concern when you talk to U.S. officials.

GHOSH: Well, the calculation as to when the ground offensive begins will be made by the Israelis.

MATTINGLY: Right.

GHOSH: And they will consider all kinds of factors, including the pressure from the United States. But as Dan pointed out, they need to move in before too long. There's a -- there's a time limit on how much they can wait. There is a momentum.

And so, we keep thinking of the pressure that's being put on Netanyahu from the outside. We're not paying enough attention to the pressure from within from Israelis. And your correspondents on the ground will know this better than -- Erin will know and Nic -- that Israelis want to see something done.

We're now two weeks away from the horrific events that began this chain of offenses and those events are still fresh in the minds of Israelis. They still want a reckoning for what happened on the 7th of October. They still want to make sure that never happens again.

There's a lot of pressure on Netanyahu to follow through on his promises to go in and finish Hamas once and for all. We can discuss around this table whether that's even possible but we must not discount the strength of feeling in Israel and the impact that feeling has on Netanyahu's -- on his disposition towards Gaza.

HARLOW: Dan, to the point earlier about what leaders say in public and what they say behind closed doors, I think it's really interesting that CNN's reporting is now the Biden administration has pressed Israel to delay that ground invasion to try to get more hostages out. But it's not something we've heard publicly from the president, except for what his team says was a misunderstanding of him saying yes to a question over the weekend.

Do you think there comes a point when that is something that the president says out loud?

SENOR: No. I think the president's approach, so far, has been to give the Israeli government and the Israeli people a big bear hug in public and say I have your back. I think what he did, as we talked about last week, was very dramatic by showing up in Israel and meeting with the war cabinet. So very forward-leaning and a sort of attached-at-the-hip message publicly and privately comparing -- conveying these messages. I do not believe --

HARLOW: Ever?

SENOR: I don't know about ever. I can't say forever. But in the near term, I don't think he's going to pressure Israel because the deterrent effect that would wipe out if the U.S. government is publicly in the presence of always pressuring Israel, the message that would send to Hezbollah and the message it would send to Iran would be disastrous.

MATTINGLY: Bobby, Dan, thanks, guys. We appreciate it.

Well, as Israel fights back against Hamas it needs more than just soldiers to win its war. One Israeli-American nurse says she can't just sit back and watch. She's going there to help save lives. She's also aware of the dangers.

CNN's Camila Bernal has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the beginning of an uncertain and potentially dangerous journey and a way of coping.

KINARET LEVIN, MEDIC TRAVELING TO ISRAEL: It reminded how I felt on 9/11 when I was a child and that hopelessness and not understanding what was going on. And I was, like, never again. And this is really never again.

[07:45:07]

BERNAL (voice-over): Twenty-seven-year-old Kinaret Levin is leaving everything behind. Her calling, volunteering her time as a medic in Israel.

LEVIN: I've made my peace with whatever happens. I've already made it because as an American, this is my sense of justice against terrorism, against the value -- my American values. As a Jewish person, my heart is bleeding. And as an Israeli, I'm reading to give my all.

BERNAL (voice-over): Los Angeles was her last stop before her flight to Israel.

BERNAL (on camera): Are you ready to see that?

LEVIN: I don't think anyone truly is ready or truly is prepared, but it's a conscious decision that I have made and I will stick through it.

BERNAL (voice-over): The organization Bulletproof Israel helped place Levin at a hospital in Israel. They're working to help Americans who want to travel to Israel while also sending large quantities of supplies.

LION SHIRDAN, CHAIRMAN AND CEO, BULLETPROOF ISRAEL: None of us are taking a salary. We're just doing everything we can to help our friends in Israel. To help our friends that have been victimized.

BERNAL (voice-over): And they've been told the hospitals are in need.

SHIRDAN: And we're sending a lot of medical supplies that are necessary right now.

BERNAL (voice-over): Levin hopes her time will make a difference.

LEVIN: This is doing my part and this is my values and who I am as a person, and who I am as a nurse and a medical professional.

BERNAL (voice-over): She says as long as she's alive she will be helping.

LEVIN: There is no regret. Regret is not the feeling. There is fear.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERNAL: And she says she'll use that fear as motivation. She landed safely and told me, "I will come back home."

Now, I also talked to a number of other organizations, including Yalla Indivisible. They help Palestinians in Gaza. And what they are telling me is that they can't help in a way that they want to. Sending someone there or sending supplies is not an option for them. They are trying to raise money, trying to get political attention. But overall, it's just Americans who feel like they have to do something, Phil.

MATTINGLY: All right, Camila Bernal. Great reporting. Thank you.

HARLOW: So, negotiations between the actors union SAG-AFTRA and Hollywood studios are going to begin -- resume again tomorrow in yet another effort to end this crippling strike that began on July 14. The two sides last met October 11. The talks broke down after the Alliance of Motion Pictures and Television Producers said the gap was too great.

Actors also returned to the picket lines last week amid union president Fran Drescher's calls for those negotiations to resume immediately.

SAG-AFTRA wants wage increases, protections for using actor images through AI, more compensation for streaming programs, and improvements to health and retirement benefits.

The Writers Guild ended its strike on September 27. That one lasted about five months.

MATTINGLY: Well, the U.S. is sending more military assets to the Middle East, including missile defense systems, and putting American troops on 'prepare to deploy' orders.

Coming up, Republican presidential candidate Mike Pence joins us. We'll ask him about the U.S. response to Israel's war with Hamas. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:50:28]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: Israel has not only the right, as we've said, but the obligation to defend itself. We are not in the business of second-guessing what they're doing. We can give our best advice, our best judgment again about how they do it and also how best to achieve the results that they're seeking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: So that was Secretary of State Antony Blinken yesterday trying to answer a question on whether the U.S. wants Israel to delay a ground assault until more hostages are freed. Not a direct answer there. Two sources, though, on the other hand, tell CNN the Biden administration is pressing Israel to do just that -- to wait. A senior Israeli official tells CNN there will be, quote, "no ceasefire" though in Gaza.

HARLOW: Joining us now to discuss that and a lot more, former Vice President of the United States and current Republican presidential candidate, Mike Pence. Mr. Vice President, thank you for your time this morning.

MIKE PENCE (R), FORMER U.S. V.P., 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you, Poppy.

HARLOW: Let's begin with that -- with our reporting from multiple sources to CNN that, yes, the Biden administration, behind closed doors, is urging Israel to wait -- to wait and give an opportunity for more hostages to be released before launching a ground assault.

Do you agree with that approach?

PENCE: Well, I think all of our leaders, from the president on down, need to speak with one voice that America stands with Israel and we will stand with Israel to do what needs to be done, which is nothing less than crossing that border, hunting down, and destroying Hamas once and for all.

I mean, the reality is after that horrific attack -- the most -- the most brutal assault on the Jewish people since the Holocaust, Poppy, Israel has no choice but to destroy Hamas. And I believe that in public and in private the President of the United States should be expressing nothing different than that.

We've got to learn the lessons of history, Poppy, and --

HARLOW: OK.

PENCE: -- the lessons of history are that peace comes through strength and that when America withdraws, when America sounds a message of retreat, the world becomes more dangerous. HARLOW: So just for clarity, are you saying you disagree with the Biden administration urging Israel to wait at all right now? You would not do that as president?

PENCE: If I was President of the United States, I would make sure there was no daylight between us and the leadership in the state of Israel. We need to make it clear that we are there to support them, to stand beside them.

To send a message to the wider region by the -- by the presence of American military force in the Eastern Mediterranean -- two aircraft carrier battle groups that if Hezbollah makes a move to make it a wider war, if Iran tries to make this a wider war, if Syrian forces or terrorists from Syria, that the United States is prepared to engage.

We just need to give Israel room to do what needs to be done. I mean, the reality is that after October 7, the world has come to realize Israel knows, America knows, Hamas and Israel cannot co-exist. Israel must prevail in that fight, and we must send them that message.

HARLOW: Do you --

PENCE: And this is a very momentous day, too, Poppy, because 40 years ago today, 241 Marines were lost to a terrorist attack in Beirut. It was almost personal in our family. My brother was a Marine assigned in Beirut. His battalion shipped out 10 days before that attack. It was the worst single-day loss of Marines since Iwo Jima.

And sadly, the Reagan administration made the decision after that terrorist attack to withdraw American forces. Osama bin Laden would write later that American retreat emboldened him to believe that violence against Americans could drive American forces out of the region. It literally set the stage for 9/11.

We can't signal restraint. We can't signal retreat in this moment. We've got to make it clear that America stands with Israel, and we're going to stand strong for our interests in the region.

HARLOW: And there is a difference -- an important one between retreat and pause. And you bring up 9/11, and this has been referred to many times over as Israel's 9/11.

I would love your reaction to what General Stanley McChrystal told our Jake Tapper. This was back in 2021. And Jake reminded us all of it on his show yesterday in terms of reflecting on what he wished America had done at that moment.

[07:55:08]

Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL, U.S. ARMY (RET.), COMMANDER, INTERNATIONAL SECURITY ASSISTANCE FORCE 2009-2010: I've thought about it a lot. Right after the 9/11 attacks, I would have made a decision inside the U.S. government to do nothing substantive for a year. And what I mean by nothing -- no bombing, no strikes, et cetera.

I would have gone around the world as the aggrieved party and built up a firm coalition for what ought we to do about al-Qaeda. I would have done a mass effort to train Americans in Arabic, Pashto, Urdu, Dari to get ourselves ready to do something that we knew would be very, very difficult.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: You were in Congress, of course, at that time and you voted authorization of the Iraq War.

Looking back now, do you share some of his reflections that perhaps a pause -- not a retreat, a pause by Israel in this moment in terms of a ground invasion -- would be prudent?

PENCE: No. I think, quite honestly, I want to respect Israel's right to take time to do the early bombardment to set military assets in place.

But I find General McChrystal's comments to be incomprehensible -- the idea that after September 11th, that we should have waited a year to respond. We made it clear to the Taliban in Afghanistan that they would give up al-Qaeda or we would come at them. We said -- we said you're either with us or you're with the terrorists.

And American forces hunted down and destroyed al-Qaeda. We displaced the Taliban. And for 20 years, up until Joe Biden's disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan, it was American forces --

HARLOW: OK. Well --

PENCE: -- there, American forces around the world that kept us safe --

HARLOW: Mr. --

PENCE: -- from another major terrorist event on our soil.

HARLOW: Mr. --

PENCE: So, no. I think -- I think we've got to stand strong. I think we've got to make it clear that there will be a price to be paid.

I go back to that 40 years ago lesson, Poppy. It was 40 years ago today 241 Marines -- when we signaled American retreat it was --

HARLOW: OK.

PENCE: -- Osama bin Laden himself who would write that emboldened him --

HARLOW: I --

PENCE: -- to set into motion the efforts that led to 9/11. We've got to meet this moment with American strength and we've got to

stand without qualification by Israel as they do what needs to be done to hunt down and destroy Hamas.

HARLOW: I want to move on to the hostages being held.

But before I do, President Biden carrying out an agreement to withdraw U.S. troops from Afghanistan -- that was made during the Trump-Pence term -- presidency.

Look, you said yesterday, Mr. Vice President, that you think the U.S. should --

PENCE: Well, but it wasn't carried out --

HARLOW: Let -- I want time --

PENCE: -- the way we were going to carry it out, Poppy.

HARLOW: I want time to ask you about the hostages because you care a lot about this, Mr. Vice President.

PENCE: Yeah, I got it. Look, when he changed the deal and --

HARLOW: You said --

PENCE: -- it turned into a disastrous withdrawal. But we can talk about that again in the future.

HARLOW: And we will have you back.

But you said and reiterated yesterday that you think the U.S. should send in special forces to free American hostages being held.

This is what John Kirby --

PENCE: Yeah.

HARLOW: -- from the White House said -- this was October 12 -- about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, COORIDATOR FOR STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: Israelis have made it very clear that they don't want foreign troops on their soil, that they want to prosecute these operations on their own, and they have every right to want to do that. There is no intention, no plan, and frankly, no desire by the Israelis for U.S. combat troops to be involved in this conflict.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Despite that, if you were president, would you send in U.S. special troops despite Israel reiterating to the White House that is not what they want, to try to bring hostages home? PENCE: Well, let me be clear. Whatever we would do, we would do in conjunction with Israeli Defense Forces and also special forces in Israel.

But look, we're talking about American hostages being --

HARLOW: Yeah.

PENCE: -- held by blood-thirsty terrorists in Hamas. And if I was President of the United States, I would have directed American special operations -- Delta Force Navy SEALS to stand up and to be prepared to go in. And then I would have made it very clear to Hamas you either turn those American hostages loose and the Israeli hostages loose or we're going to come and get them. We have the greatest hostage rescue teams in the world.

And I think this business of waiting while Hamas decides the timetable, going hand-in-hand to Qatar to negotiate the release of hostages -- we ought to just make it very, very clear that we are not going to tolerate them detaining American hostages. We don't ask permission to send American forces in to save Americans.

HARLOW: Yeah, right. But you were also saying that you would work hand-in-hand with the Israeli government and what they want.

Finally, on this aid package --

PENCE: Of course.

HARLOW: -- put forward -- put forward by the Biden administration. It's, as you know, $61 billion for Ukraine, $14 billion for Israel, and you've got money for humanitarian aid. Also, bolstering the defense in Taiwan, and $14 billion for the U.S. border.

I know you largely have been supportive of this, maybe quibble with some of the numbers.

[08:00:00]