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Axios: Israel Willing To Delay Gaza Invasion To Discuss Large Release Of Hostages; New York Gov. Kathy Hochul Discusses DHS Warnings Of Potential Uptick Of Hate Crimes In U.S.; Russian Detainee Paul Whelan Speaks To CNN. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired October 24, 2023 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[07:30:22]

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BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Hamas is responsible for civilian casualties. But we will do every effort to avoid them and to fight this war as speedily and as rapidly as we can, but it could be a long war.

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POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: That is Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu saying this could be a long war. The IDF says it has struck more than 400 targets in just the past 24 hours, as you heard the prime minister say what they are bracing for.

Here with us now, CNN military analyst and former NATO supreme allied commander, Gen. Wesley Clark. We so appreciate your expertise --

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST, FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER, SENIOR FELLOW, UCLA'S BURIDE CENTER FOR INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS: It's good to be with you.

HARLOW: -- especially on a morning like this. There is some really interesting reporting. Our Oren Liebermann brought it to us. We now know that a commander of the Marine Forces Special Operations Command. Marine Corps Lt. Gen. James Glynn is in Israel advising Israel on next steps.

Can you -- can you speak to what he would be doing in a moment like this?

CLARK: I think he'll just be consulting. You know, the Israelis have their own plans. They've got a lot of experience but we do, too. We had some major urban operations like in Mosul in 2014. We worked it really hard and there are some similarities. There will be some differences. And I think the exchange of professional opinions in cases like this at a very level is really important.

HARLOW: You bring up Mosul, which is interesting because that is something that the defense secretary also -- Lloyd Austin also brought up over the weekend, talking about the reminder from Mosul about the difficulty -- and that's an understatement -- of urban warfare like this.

So would he counsel in that respect as well?

CLARK: Right. Well, you can count on urban warfare being difficult in every circumstances and especially here because the population is going to be against the Israelis. So that's one of the major factors.

And, of course, urban terrain with all the buildings and so forth, and rubble, and vehicles -- it's very complicated. So you really have to know what you're doing. You have to think it through very carefully before you go in there because it just soaks up forces. You're going to have 100,000 people in there and they're distributed block by block, building by building --

HARLOW: Yeah.

CLARK: -- and then they can't react if something happens. It's much different than fighting in more open terrain.

So all those things are going to be discussed, I'm sure.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: To that point and to drill in a little bit further, in talking to some folks in the Pentagon a week ago, I said is Fallujah a good analog? And they said no, way worse. Mosul, closer -- however, ISIS had a year. They've had 15 years.

Is this possible -- the idea of going in and uprooting Hamas given the scale of the preparations -- the tunnels, how they operate, the civilians?

CLARK: Well, you don't want to say it's not possible.

MATTINGLY: Yeah.

CLARK: But what you do want to do is look at the objectives so when you go in there on a professional level. I'm sure the general is going to say now, what are the objectives? What are you going for? You are going to say you're going for the enemy. But how are you going to get to the enemy?

So you're going to take key terrain? What's the key terrain? Is it the desalination plant? Is the power plant? What is it and how do you go from one piece of key terrain to the other?

When you go into an urban area you have to secure not only -- you have to advance but you have to secure your lines of communication and your rear. And you've somehow got to get into this tunnel network. So it could be enormously difficult.

HARLOW: About that key question that Gen. Petraeus raised as -- at the launch of the Iraq War, what's the endgame? Have you heard any --

CLARK: Well, you know, when we went in --

HARLOW: -- answers to that?

CLARK: When we went into Kosovo when I was the NATO commander in 1999, we actually had thought that after the bombing campaign, the U.N. would come in. And we already had a plan for how the NATO forces would sit on the ground and occupy so we knew where we were going.

In this case, it's a -- it's a little hard to define the end state because -- Ahoo Brock (PH) was on CNN on Sunday. I thought he did an excellent job of saying, of course, it's going to be the Palestinian Authority, but you're not going to get the Palestinian Authority to commit right now.

When you look at what's going on in the West Bank -- the rising militancy there, the fact the Israelis are coming in there and striking targets. For the -- for any authority to then say OK, we're going to work with the Israelis and make this all right, it's not going to happen right now.

So I think you can keep that in mind as an end state but it's what President Biden said -- that you can't occupy. You've got to plan on going in, doing what you have to do, and it's got to be turned over to someone. That someone is going to probably be the Palestinian Authority in a reinforced, restructured way with Saudi money, with European Union training and leadership, with the enhanced capabilities. I mean, that's the only good that's going to come out of this and hopefully, we can work that way.

[07:35:13]

But the Israelis, I don't think, are going to wait for that to be defined and coalesced before they go in. I just don't think it's possible.

MATTINGLY: How is that a feasible option for the Palestinian Authority? Abbas has significant issues with his own population already because they feel like not only has he not delivered. And it's the kind of bloat in that -- inside that organization has been very apparent for a decade-plus.

But to put in new leadership or to try and have new leadership financed by other Gulf states, and Europeans, and the Americans, how is that going to get the people -- the Palestinian people to follow them?

CLARK: Yeah, it's going to -- it's going to be a really tough problem. And I think it starts with U.S. leadership, honestly, and I think the president has cached it the right way with his concern not only for the hostages but for aid for the Palestinians in Gaza.

So in order to work, the United States has to be the adult in the room. We have to be the power that's looking over the whole region trying to get the right balance between justice, fairness, and getting after Hamas and destroying it. Because you can't tolerate an organization like that in a region whose sole purpose has been to destroy another state. So if you get the right context in there, over time, I think it is

possible to work and strengthen the Palestinian Authority. But as everyone has said, this is a long, long process.

HARLOW: General Wesley Clark, thank you.

MATTINGLY: Thank you, sir.

CLARK: Thank you.

HARLOW: Good to have you -- Erin.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR, "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT": All right. Well, Poppy, new video this morning of Israeli airstrikes into Gaza continue as the aerial assault continues. Hundreds more strikes overnight the IDF says they have carried out across Gaza. And that is crucial in terms of the hostage situation.

We have learned new information about Israel's potential plans for a ground offensive and also the situation with the hostages. Because according to a new report, Israeli officials say that they are willing to delay going into Gaza for a few days to allow for talks on releasing a large number of hostages being held by Hamas.

Let's go straight to Barak Ravid, political and foreign policy reporter for Axios. He's got this new reporting. And Barak, clearly, they have been delaying this -- delaying and delaying and delaying. I mean, it's definitional at this point. There are now four hostages out.

But when you talk about a large hostage release, what is this? Is this the 50 we've been hearing about or more, or what is your understanding from your reporting?

BARAK RAVID, POLITICAL AND FOREIGN POLICY REPORTER, AXIOS (via Webex by Cisco): Good morning.

I think that what the Israelis want to try and achieve -- and for that, they're willing to wait with the ground invasion for another few days -- is to get mostly the women, the children, and the elderly out. That's dozens of people held by Hamas for two weeks now.

And Hamas -- by releasing, last week, two hostages and yesterday, another two -- is trying to do this slow drip of hostages out of Gaza to try and delay. To try and play for time. The Israelis told Hamas through Qatar and through Egypt that if you want to cut a deal on hostages, we're ready. We're ready to discuss it. But this is -- we are talking about a big deal, not a slow -- this slow drip of hostages.

BURNETT: Yeah.

RAVID: At the moment, there's no such deal, unfortunately, but I think they're ready to discuss it.

BURNETT: Right. And obviously, until then, you get the drip, which Israel says isn't enough. But in a sense, factually, it is enough because they are getting the drip as they're waiting for the bigger deal. I mean, I understand these are often circular conversations in this moment.

But, Barak, reading your reporting there was something you said that I wanted to highlight. You spoke to a senior Israeli official who said if Israel -- if Hamas proposes a big package, of course, we will be ready to do things in return.

What are those things --

RAVID: Yes.

BURNETT: -- Barack, as you understand it?

RAVID: I think there are several things that Hamas wants.

First and foremost, Hamas wants some sort of a ceasefire. It is under immense pressure. They have been under bombing for two weeks. They're in the tunnels. Believe me, it's not fun over there, OK? And they want some oxygen so they'll be able to get their leadership to other hiding places, have some time for -- to reorganize --

BURNETT: Right.

RAVID: -- to take a breath, and they're willing to do a lot for it.

And Israel is telling Hamas is you want to get even one minute of ceasefire, first you need to get all the women and the children out. So I think that this could be how this deal looks like.

Hamas wants other stuff.

BURNETT: Yeah.

RAVID: It wants fuel. I don't see Israel getting fuel into Gaza at the moment.

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BURNETT: Barak, obviously, Israel has been clear with one strategic goal, right? I know the U.S. has been critical that they haven't been clear on many of them. But the main one they've been clear is that they're going to decapitate and eliminate the leadership of Hamas, right?

So if you're Hamas and you can get a ceasefire for six hours or so to regroup to give over hostages, but eventually the more you give over the closer you are to your elimination and your death, how do you --

RAVID: Yeah.

BURNETT: -- square that circle?

RAVID: I think that at the moment, Hamas needs any oxygen it can get from the current situation that it's in, OK? And those hostages -- at least some of them -- the women, the children, the elderly -- I think that Hamas realizes that they're more of a burden than an asset. The international criticism Hamas got in those two weeks due to the hostage situation is bigger than it -- than it got in all the years that it was holding Israeli soldiers hostage.

So I think that --

BURNETT: Yeah.

RAVID: -- their organization understands that if it gives up some of the hostages its situation could improve.

BURNETT: All right, Barak. Thank you very much.

Barak Ravid with the new reporting that Israel is willing to continue delaying this, Poppy, for more days in the hopes of a major hostage exchange. And, I mean, obviously, Poppy, they've already delayed here for weeks, so this is the constant wait and wait and wait ready to go position that we remain in as Israel hopes for a much larger hostage release.

HARLOW: I mean -- and the point you just made that the reality is they are delaying as more hostages get released. But will those talks happen that Barak is reporting for a delay for a big group of hostages --

BURNETT: Yeah.

HARLOW: -- would be really significant.

Erin, thank you very much. We'll get back to you soon.

Here in the United States, the Homeland Security Department warning we'll likely see more hate crimes in the United States as the war in the Middle East continues -- and we're already seeing it happening.

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SHARON BROUS, FOUNDER AND SENIOR RABBI, IKAR: Our humble ask is that people give a damn when we die.

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HARLOW: Well, this morning, the Department of Homeland Security says the war in the Middle East may lead to more hate crimes across the United States from antisemitic flyers to vandalism. There has already been an escalation.

DHS issued this warning to law enforcement. Quote, "Escalations in the ongoing war between Israel and Hamas almost certainly will increase the threat of terrorism and targeted violence."

Our Nick Watt has that reporting from Los Angeles. Good morning, Nick.

NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.

Well, Poppy, you mentioned a threat -- the threat, the tension rising transferred here to this country from the Middle East during what's going on.

Now, many Jewish Americans I've spoken to say that they're really not feeling the support and sympathy that they hoped they would get in the wake of October 7, the largest loss of Jewish life in a single day since the Holocaust. Instead of sympathy and support, many feel vilified and scared.

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WATT (voice-over): Americans from many walks of life showing support for the people of Gaza. Meanwhile, it's largely just Jews at the very few demonstrations in support of the Israeli civilians who were tortured and slaughtered October 7, and for the more than 200 taken hostage and still held by Hamas terrorists inside Gaza.

Some Jews who marched, for example, for Black Lives Matter or the Women of Iran feel let down.

CHLOE LEVIAN, ISRAEL SUPPORTER: It's really, really, really upsetting to see that people -- to see our people -- to see people who we stand with not stand with us.

BROUS: Our humble ask is that people give a damn when we die.

WATT (voice-over): That's Rabbi Sharon Brous in a now-viral sermon.

BROUS: It feels like a great sense of abandonment. People who we've been in the trenches working with for many years not only don't grieve when Jews are massacred but actually celebrate. It's a -- it's devastating.

WATT (voice-over): She is a regular critic of the Israeli government and a peace advocate.

BROUS: People feel like they're forced to have to choose between this or this when, in fact, what we have to do is find the moral imagination to dream of a different kind of future in which all people can live in justice.

WATT (voice-over): In Brookhaven, Georgia, antisemitic flyers were passed out overnight Saturday. In San Diego, an Israeli cultural center closed indefinitely after being vandalized twice in three days.

KERRY SCHLOSSBERG, VOLUNTEER, HOUSE OF ISRAEL: It seems that a lot of feelings of antisemitic hatred have been dormant, mostly, until now.

WATT (voice-over): In Los Angeles, a Jewish school says that after a game, "Our football team experienced a variety of antisemitic language and gestures, including the Nazi salute mostly from the stands, although a couple of the opposing players were involved as well." BROUS: Having that history still so alive in our spirit and in recent memory, it does alert us to the hints of those kinds of major social currents in our own time.

WATT (voice-over): In Skokie, Illinois, Sunday, a pro-Palestinian counterprotest sprung up near an Israeli solidarity rally. Someone pulled a gun and fired in the air. The governor is calling for calm in a state that has seen a rise in hate and real hurt for its Jewish and Arab citizens.

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WATT: Now, remember, a 6-year-old Palestinian-American boy was stabbed to death in Illinois, apparently, because he's Muslim -- apparently, an act of hate.

Governor Pritzker, of Illinois made a plea. He said stop holding Jewish Muslims and -- sorry, American Jews and Muslims responsible for the actions of governments thousands of miles away.

Back to you.

HARLOW: Wow, that's such important reporting, Nick. Thank you very much for bringing it to us this morning.

MATTINGLY: And in New York City last week, a swastika was found scrawled on the outside of Second Avenue Deli, one of the city's iconic Jewish eateries.

Joining us now is New York Gov. Kathy Hochul. Her state is home to the largest population of Jews outside Israel and she visited Israel last week. Governor, we appreciate your time.

To start with, what we're hearing -- the warnings from the Department of Homeland Security about uptick -- an uptick in potential hate crimes, do you have any credible threats or are you aware of any credible threats against Jewish or Muslim institutions at this point?

GOV. KATHY HOCHUL, (D) NEW YORK: No -- thank you. We're constantly monitoring threats on social media and other sources. I, after the Buffalo massacre, which was done by a white supremacist, literally doubled the size of our State Police force that's responsible for hate crimes.

[07:50:01]

I just launched a hotline for people to be able to call if they see such signs as you've described as -- describing Nazi symbols or even attacks on mosques. I want to make sure the people of New York feel that there's an outlet. That they can reach out to their law enforcement allies and we can put an end to this.

It's abhorrent to me as the leader of the state with, yes, the largest population of Jews outside of Israel. However, I also have to protect every institution -- mosques, as well as synagogues and yeshivas. So I -- it's really abhorrent to me that what has happened -- the unprovoked attack by Hamas on innocent civilians in Israel has turned into people allowing this hate to fester and rise to the surface in a place like New York, which is known for its diversity and its tolerance, and it's acceptance of others.

So, no known credible threats but we are very vigilant as a place that has had experienced terrorist threats but also these -- this hate speech is very hurtful and we want to put an end to it.

MATTINGLY: I mentioned that you've just traveled to Israel. Israel has told the U.S. that there are more American hostages that are alive. I believe 10 Americans are currently unaccounted for.

One of those Americans is from Long Island. I believe you brought a picture of that individual and handed it to the Israeli president. What did he say?

HOCHUL: Well, he understood that I was there on behalf of Americans overall in terms of wanting all of them freed.

But I had just been hugging the aunt and uncle, and the cousin of Omer Neutra and said I would do anything I could to help them. I met his parents at a rally just a day after the horrific attack on civilians occurred and he was taken hostage.

So I said this is my responsibility as governor and representative of these individuals. I put the picture in his hands. I said let's work together to bring all the hostages home and he agreed. Israel wants the hostages home as well.

But I want to make sure that we never forget the atrocities that were committed on innocent civilians. Yes, they took our hostages and we want them home first, but let's not become desensitized to the horrors that I saw firsthand when I walked through a kibbutz into homes that had been obliterated with blood on the walls and on mattresses, and a safe room where two young women were butchered and set on fire. I mean, the -- we must not be desensitized to this -- what happened there.

And there should be a global condemnation of what Hamas did -- no tolerance, no acceptance -- and understanding that Israel has a right to protect itself. And we must stop terrorism here before it spreads to places like New York again -- Hezbollah, Hamas. These are threats to our way of life.

MATTINGLY: You visited the Western Wall. Can I ask what was in the note that you placed inside the limestone?

HOCHUL: I prayed for peace but also justice. I prayed for the innocent Israelis who were slaughtered on that day and taken captive, but also all innocent civilians who are in harm's way as a result of this attack.

I also took the opportunity to pray for my father, who I had learned flying over from Israel had passed very unexpectedly. So it had a dual purpose for me. MATTINGLY: And my condolences for the loss of your father. I read somewhere about the last thing -- the last message that he sent to you. What was it?

HOCHUL: I was in the JFK waiting area planning to board. I wasn't sure -- I said tell him his daughter was going to Israel literally into a warzone. But I decided to tell him and he left a voicemail that says, "I'm proud of you, Dolly. My advice: keep your goddamn head down." So that's how my gruff Irish father spoke.

He was proud of me but he also, as a dad, was concerned about my safety. But he knew I would go and even when I found out the news, I knew I needed to continue in that journey because I -- as much as I could use some comfort, I needed to give more comfort to others. And I received that from the very warm, generous people who I met on my journey to Israel.

It was life-changing for me and I needed to come back and be able to talk about what I saw and what I experienced. The people who are in such deep pain -- we cannot forget them. We cannot forget the people who are so innocent living on a peaceful kibbutz --

MATTINGLY: Right.

HOCHUL: -- who are making friends with Gazans and making -- and trying to make sure that they had a peaceful life as well. They're the ones whose blood is on the floor and on the walls, and let's never forget that.

MATTINGLY: The last thing before I let you go -- what, tangibly, can you do now that you've come back? Obviously, there's spreading the message. There's talking about what you saw. From a tangible perspective, what can you do?

HOCHUL: Well, you heard in your earlier segment that people are just feeling they've been forgotten. The people of Israel have been ignored now because the conversation has shifted across the board.

[07:55:00]

I don't want any innocent civilians killed -- none of us do -- but we have to reaffirm Israel's right to protect itself, to obliterate the terrorist organization known as Hamas, and lawfully free the Palestinian people who are being oppressed, themselves, under that regime.

MATTINGLY: All right.

Governor Kathy Hochul, we appreciate your time and your dad's advice, which is as good as it can possibly be. Thank you.

HOCHUL: Thank you.

HARLOW: One American who has been wrongfully detained in Russia for five years is pressing the Secretary of State not to allow the U.S. to leave him behind again. Hear what Paul Whelan told Sec. Blinken in a story you'll see only right here on CNN.

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MATTINGLY: This morning, in a CNN exclusive, former Marine Paul Whelan, imprisoned in Russia for nearly five years, revealed what he told Secretary of State Antony Blinken during a phone call after he was left out of two prisoner swaps last year where other wrongfully detained Americans Trevor Reed and Brittney Griner, were released.

CNN's Jennifer Hansler joins us now from Washington with this exclusive. Jennifer, they were very strong words from Paul Whelan to the Secretary of State. What did he say?

JENNIFER HANSLER, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT PRODUCER: Well, that's right, Phil. Paul Whelan told me he wanted to be able to share his true feelings with the Secretary of State and hear what is being done to try to bring him home after nearly five years in Russian detention.

Now, he was able to express his frustration to the Secretary of State in that call. It was the second time they had been able to speak by phone. The first time was back in December of last year. But in this August call, he really did not mince words, is what he told me.

Take a listen to how he described his situation to Tony Blinken.

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PAUL WHELAN, AMERICAN DETAINED IN RUSSIA: I told him point blank that leaving me here the first time painted a target on my back, and leaving me here the second time basically signed a death warrant.

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HANSLER: Now, Whelan said that part of this is because of his age and the physical work that he is having to do in that remote prison camp in Mordovia. He said conditions have gotten worse over the three years he has spent in that camp. He said they get watered-down food. The heat has not been turned on yet this year.

So he really pressed the Secretary of State to ensure that he is not left behind in that camp again.

I should note, Phil, that U.S. officials have said the Russians would not include him in those prisoner swaps.

HARLOW: Where do, if we know -- and by the way, your reporting on this -- you've constantly been the one able to talk to him and bring his message. The only way people can hear from him, by the way, Jennifer.

But where do negotiations stand? Do we know? Do we have any lens into that?

HANSLER: Well, right now, there's really no apparent movement on those negotiations. We know that the U.S. has put forward to the Russians a serious proposal, as they call it. The Russians have not engaged substantively on that proposal. And that proposal was put forward initially before the arrest of Evan Gershkovich, The Wall Street Journal reporter. So that has forced the U.S. to try to come up with other solutions to bring back both of these men.

And I will say despite the tough words that he gave to Sec. Blinken, Whelan also expressed confidence that there is work being done on his behalf.

Take a listen to what he told me.

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WHELAN: I think everyone's trying to do the right thing, and I know that this will come to an end at some point. How long it will take, I don't know. But I'm being promised that I won't be left behind here.

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