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Cohen to Testify at Trump Trial; House Pushes for Speaker; Growing Tension in West Bank; Hostage Speaks about Captivity. Aired 8:30-9a ET
Aired October 24, 2023 - 08:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[08:30:00]
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Let's go now to CNN's Brynn Gingras, who's live outside the New York courthouse.
First time in five years in the same room. They used to be incredibly close. What do we expect today?
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, Phil, this is going to be a pivotal moment in the attorney general's case as she continues to work to essentially put the Trumps out of business in the state of New York. And as you said, listen, in recent years we have seen a very public feud between Michael Cohen and Donald Trump whether it be on social media, in interviews, but this is going to be the first time that they are in the same room together.
And much of Cohen's testimony is going to focus on when he was in the room with his boss at the time talking about financial statements, talking about Donald Trump's net worth and the discussions they had according to the attorney general about how the Trumps inflated their net worth to get business loans. So, it's going to be interesting testimony. Certainly something that everyone will be very clued in on essentially -- for Donald Trump especially, rather, because he has been very, you know, into the testimony that he's listening to, but this is certainly one of a different level.
We are also expecting to hear from one other witness before Michael Cohen takes the stand today, but we're waiting to hear what he has to say before he leaves his New York apartment. I'm sure we'll hear from the former president because he always talks before he heads into that New York courtroom. So, we'll hear what they have to say about each other. But it will be a dramatic day here definitely at the New York courthouse when Cohen does eventually take the stand later this morning.
MATTINGLY: It's like the most New York day in a New York courthouse that I can imagine.
Brynn Gingras, thank you very much.
GINGRAS: Yes.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us now, CNN political commentator, former White House communications director, Alyssa Farah Griffen, and writer of the "Very Serious" newsletter and host of the "Very Serious" podcast, Josh Barro.
You have some thoughts on Cohen and Trump.
JOSH BARRO, WRITER, "VERY SERIOUS" NEWSLETTER: Well, the problem with Michael Cohen as a witness is that he's a convicted felon. Convicted of crimes including perjury. And so what I would expect the attorney general will be doing with his testimony is bringing him on to talk about things that they can also then provide documentary evidence to back up, whether that's emails or text messages or that sort of thing.
He was in these rooms, and it makes sense that you would want him there to talk about what was said in the rooms. But there's - I - I - there's going to have to be a trust but verify thing about it because the Trump team, not unreasonably, will say Cohen is a convicted liar and you can't just take his word all by itself.
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, and just how crazy the backdrop that this is what the GOP frontrunner is dealing with today. And this is just his civil fraud case. There's four others, two Department of Justice, the Fulton County investigation, while the world feels like it's on fire. We're following what's happening in Israel and Gaza, obviously, and this, you know, Congress doesn't have a speaker of the House. It's just a remarkable kind of preview of what the election cycle is going to look like with Donald Trump likely (INAUDIBLE).
MATTINGLY: Can I interrupt you, though, because I thought Trump put it in really good context. Like, he seemed to be grounded on the realities of this moment when he was talking about some of the prosecutions he's facing in New Hampshire.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: I don't mind being Nelson Mandela because I'm doing it for a reason.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: Yes. Right?
GRIFFIN: I mean, yes, naturally.
MATTINGLY: Like, what - honestly, like, come on. Like, what are we -
GRIFFIN: The parallels.
MATTINGLY: What are we doing here? I don't - I don't know that you -- anybody could have a great answer.
BARRO: But that's - but that is the whole pitch. I mean Nelson Mandela is a gratuitous way to put it, but the only way to run for president while you are under - MATTINGLY: A little gratuitous, yes.
BARRO: While you are - while you are under multiple criminal indictments, you have to argue that you're being - that you're being politically persecuted, otherwise, why would anyone elect you while you're under multiple indictments. So, I mean, that is, you know, the - I think you - I - I - I don't agree with him about it, but I think we need to take seriously that that is the argument here. The argument is, all of these prosecutions are being brought against me because they fear me politically and they want to punish me, and not because I actually committed a wide variety of crimes.
MATTINGLY: I just feel like comparing yourself to a man that spent 27 years in South African prisons for fighting apartheid is maybe like a little bit further than like framing the politics of the moment.
GRIFFIN: Just a bridge to far.
BARRO: Well, but I'm - the - it's - that - that is, you know, that's his argument to his base. I mean he is, you know, he is seen as the champion of this movement that is fight -- fighting against the deep state and whatnot. I mean it's - it's -- it's ridiculous but I - I think, you know, the -- I don't know that -- I don't know that laughing at it is going to get his opponents very far.
HARLOW: But in other news, Trump does know who could be speaker of the House.
MATTINGLY: Good point. Yes.
HARLOW: Let's - let's tell you.
Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Would you endorse Tom Emmer for speaker? He hasn't historically been your biggest fan, but he is the most likely candidate right now.
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Well, I think he's my biggest fan now because he called me yesterday and he told me, I'm your biggest fan. So, I don't know about that.
Well, we're looking at a lot of people. And, you know, I'm sort of trying to stay out of that as much as possible.
I said there's only one person that can do it all the way. You know who that is? Jesus Christ. If Jesus came down and said, I want to be speaker, he would do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Not available. So?
GRIFFIN: I'm not even convinced this House conference would elect - HARLOW: Come on.
MATTINGLY: I was going to say, can he get 217? Like, we're going to need to see (INAUDIBLE).
GRIFFIN: (INAUDIBLE). Listen, Tom Emmer is very much the favorite. But even he's setting expectations low for today's conference vote, saying it may be on the second or third ballot that he ends up getting the support.
[08:35:02]
This is a crisis of Republicans' own making. Yes, it started with the gang of eight or the - I should - the Gaetz eight, but it is under scorable. We have known for some time, but it hadn't really been tested in the public eye, which is that this is such a divided conference, you basically need to have no more than four enemies to be able to become the speaker. And I'm not sure that exists for anyone right now.
But what's interesting about Emmer is he did vote to certify the election. And as far as Democrats see it, he's probably the least bad option from their perspective. So, I do think this probably trends his direction.
MATTINGLY: Where Democrats are on this right now is fascinating to me. There's been some people who say, why aren't they get -- they shouldn't get involved. I think they've play this extraordinarily well. Hakeem Jeffries and his team. How do you think this lands for them?
BARRO: Well, I mean, there are - there are these news reports this morning about the willing -- potential willingness of Democrats to have some of them sit out the speaker vote in order to get Tom Emmer over the top.
MATTINGLY: Yes.
BARRO: If they can get some sort of private assurances about government funding and funding for Ukraine and that sort of thing.
I think even that getting out into the press is --
MATTINGLY: Well, that would end Emmer (INAUDIBLE).
BARRO: Right, but -- well, but, I mean, that's in the press now.
MATTINGLY: Right.
BARRO: It's the -- you know, it's not - it's not in the press under a particular game. But certainly if, you know, if there's an impression that Tom Emmer has a deal with Democrats, that will be an enormous problem for him with Republicans. The question is whether Democrats can get comfortable basically on an implicit basis. Not with any sort of explicit deal with Tom Emmer but just, you know, sort of hoping and expecting that he's going to behave in a manner that they think is acceptable on government funding because I think that's -- that's the most they're likely to get here.
I mean the other alternative for Democrats is this - this whole thing can fail. They can designate one or more additional speaker - speaker designees and then fail again to get a majority on the floor and then ultimately you could empower Patrick McHenry, the acting speaker, and that's something that Democrats might also play ball on in a way that would be, you know, limited in time or limited to topics. So, they do have that option available to them also.
GRIFFIN: And I am skeptical of this reporting that Democrats may, you know, sit out votes to empower Emmer. They don't stand to gain much from it. And I do think actually letting Republicans remain in chaos until the November 17th funding battle is actually the best thing for them electorally.
HARLOW: I'm not sure it's the best thing - is it the best thing for the country?
GRIFFIN: It's not the best thing for the country, the efforts in Ukraine or Israel. So, I think that's an option that the conference is weighing.
I would keep an eye today, McCarthy's backing Emmer. Where do - where does Jim Jordan go here? He carries a significant enough bloc that that can, you know, really put some - some pressure behind somebody else, kind of a conservative alternative.
MATTINGLY: Look, when you have a panel that gets into Mandela, Jesus, Michael Cohen, Tom Emmer's whip count, this is as good as it gets.
HARLOW: Thank you, guys.
MATTINGLY: We appreciate you guys. Josh, Alyssa, thanks, guys.
BARRO: Thank you.
GRIFFIN: Thank you.
HARLOW: CNN is on the ground in the West Bank where the war is driving a wedge that is fracturing generations of trust between Jews and Palestinians. That's ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Something is being cracked. Something is not the same anymore.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[08:41:21]
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. I'm Erin Burnett, live in Tel Aviv. Just in, the Hamas-controlled ministry of health in Gaza says that 704
people in Gaza have been killed in the most recent 24-hour period. That is the highest daily number that they have put out since the IDF strikes in Gaza began.
We did, by the way, just moments ago here, over the past 20 minutes hear what I would describe as the heaviest number of strikes that we've felt here in Tel Aviv, in Gaza, that we felt in, frankly, almost the past two weeks.
Airstrikes in Gaza creating new concerns for people living in the West Bank. CNN's Sara Sidner is live in Jerusalem today as she has spent time there.
And, Sara, you got rare access to an Israeli settlement in the West Bank.
SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. Yes, Erin, there is a definite increase in violence and killings that have happened in the West Bank since October 7th. Those numbers in the dozens of Palestinians who have been killed, but also dozens more injured by the Israeli security apparatus.
We took a look at what was going on because settlers as well have been accused of violence against Palestinians and vice versa. We went to one of the settlements and talked to those who were there, as well as the Palestinians on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SIDNER (voice over): Armed and on high alert, Yossi Dagan oversees 40 Jewish settlements in the West Bank. Since Hamas' terror attack on Israel, he considers them Nazis.
YOSSI DAGAN, GOVERNOR, SHOMRON REGION (through translator): We are standing against a Nazi enemy as cruel as the cavemen from 3,000 years ago that carried out a massacre on our brothers in the south.
SIDNER: Jewish settler presence here has always been fraught. Deemed illegal by international law. The events of October 7th have put these settlements on a war footing.
CNN gained rare access to one of the hundreds of settlements dotted throughout the Palestinian territories. Armed patrols are now every day occurrences in Kiryat Netafim. Fortified perimeters segregate Jewish communities from Palestinian. Local husbands, fathers, and son volunteers keep the unwanted out at all times.
Natan Douek has stopped going to work and called his local draft office in the days after the attack.
NATAN DOUEK, RESIDENT AND IDF SOLDIER: We need to protect ourselves because we are surrounded by people who don't necessarily like us. I didn't feel like I have to go fight, but definitely defend my home.
He's had enough. SIDNER: And the situation is no child's play. He says their world was
turned upside down on October 7th.
DOUEK: That day, October the 7th, was shabbat. At the end of shabbat we say a prayer and -- sorry.
SIDNER (on camera): That's OK.
DOUEK: Some of it is - is --
SIDNER: What's the prayer mean (ph)?
DOUEK: You know, asking - asking God to - to help us and - and to - to keep our children safe and to keep our soldiers safe and some of these words I just couldn't say them because, you know, we weren't safe on October 7th.
SIDNER (voice over): Palestinians say they weren't safe from some settlers long before October 7th, and it's only gotten more violent since.
Hanan Ashrawi is a Palestinian activist and a former Palestinian Liberation Organization official in the West Bank.
HANAN ASHRAWI, PALESTINIAN ACTIVIST, FORMER PLO OFFICIAL: They tell you they're afraid. Why are you committing a war crime?
[08:45:00]
Why are you living on Palestinian land illegally? Just because Israel tells you, you can? This is occupied territory.
SIDNER: She says the Palestinian territories are shrinking beyond recognition because of all the illegal settlements.
And then there is the growing settler Palestinian violence. Much of the violence has been caught on camera. Here, Jewish settlers throw rocks and fire guns at Palestinian homes. In another incident, after a confrontation, a Jewish settler shoots at an apparently unarmed Palestinian in the stomach.
We asked Yossi Dagan about this incident.
SIDNER (on camera): How do you defend the Palestinians who have been killed by settlers?
DAGAN (through translator): Am I supposed to explain to CNN why terrorists that try to kill civilians or soldiers were shot by security forces, the police or the army? With all due respect, I don't really understand the question.
SIDNER (voice over): But we clarified in English and Hebrew, showing him the video.
DAGAN: What you are showing me now is an edited, tendentious video of attempts of terrorists to hurt and kill Jews that are protecting themselves. This happens a lot. And, unfortunately, there aren't two equal sides.
SIDNER: The video you're seeing is not edited, but Palestinians agree with one thing he says, the sides are not equal. They are the overwhelming victims in this, they say.
ASHRAWI: They are on the rampage. They gave them weapons and they encouraged them. And they gave them support and protection by the Israeli occupation army.
SIDNER: Ashrawi is referring to Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel's hardline national security minister. Days after Hamas' attack, he announced the purchase of 10,000 guns to arm civilian security teams. He himself began passing them out.
Gun ownership used to be heavily restricted in Israel, but those laws have changed and now settlers are getting a huge amount of weapons.
Back in settlement Kiryat Netafim, Leot Hartoff (ph) takes us to the home where she raised her five children. She says here they've had a peaceful coexistence with their Palestinian neighbors.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I live here for 24 years. I never feared.
SIDNER (on camera): And now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Something has cracked. I think every mother in Israel these days feels the same. That something is not the same anymore.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SIDNER: And what is not the same is what happened on October 7th. Everyone who we spoke with in the settlement said that their fear is higher than it's ever been. I should say that historically the reason why the Jewish population lives in those settlements is because they believe it is a part of their biblical land that they refer to as Judea and Samaria. Of course the international community and international law says different, that it is Palestinian land that has been illegally taken over.
But, also, she's a mother of five who says she also moved there because the land was inexpensive. She could afford a house and a yard for her kids. She has five children, two of them are in the IDF. She is extremely worried about them as well.
Guys, back to you.
BURNETT: All right, Sara, thank you very much, in Jerusalem this morning.
And we are getting brand-new details right now from a hostage who has been released by Hamas talking about her time in captivity in great detail. So, what does it tell the world about what's happening in Gaza? Christiane Amanpour will join us to discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[08:50:45]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YOCHEVED LIFSHITZ, HOSTAGE RELEASED BY HAMAS (through translator): I went through hell. We didn't think, nor knew, we could get into this stage. They rampaged in our kibbutz. I was kidnapped. They made me lye down on motorbike on my side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: That was Yocheved Lifshitz, the 85-year-old Israeli woman who was one of two hostages just released from Hamas custody. She spoke at length about her detainment, the conditions and the tunnels where she was kept in Gaza and how they were treated.
This comes as the humanitarian crisis in Gaza deepens for the 2.2 million people trapped there. Food, water and fuel running out as Israel unleashes unrelenting airstrikes across the region.
For the big picture, CNN's chief international anchor Christiane Amanpour joins us live from London.
And, Christiane, I want to start with what we heard from the hostages that have been released. Just because it was so striking. We've heard so little about their conditions, where they are, what they've been dealing with. What did you take away from that from your perspective?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, it was really moving because, like many of you, I'd spoken to her daughter. She came into the studio here just a few days ago. And she spoke so movingly about her elderly parents, how they were really peaceniks, how her father had, you know, gone to the border and given rides to Palestinians who were trying to get jobs inside Israel over the - over the past few years. So, it was very moving to see that her mother has been released. And there she is, Sharone, sitting with her.
The details about the tunnel complex, about the health care, about the food, about where they were, we understand in the south of Gaza, which, as you know, is where the Israelis have told Palestinians to move to from northern Gaza. So, interesting that the Hamas captors kept at least her and her group of hostages in the south, potentially thinking that that was a more security part.
It sort of dovetails a little bit with what I've been speaking to by phone to some Hamas spokespeople. I asked them, from the beginning, how they're treating, what they're doing with the hostages, when they would let them go, et cetera. And from the beginning they said they were treating them well. And that kind of makes sense because she - she, you know, she made that clear that they were treated well because, as cynical as it sounds, they are also, you know, currency. They need to be treated well in order for them to be released and for Hamas, if they think they can negotiate, to get anybody back. So, I found that very interesting. And, clearly, the network of tunnels, very interesting. The difference
between how she was treated compared to how roughly she was man handled when - when the, you know, terrorist attack took place on their kibbutz. She described how she had been taken and essentially slammed onto the back of a motorbike. And she's elderly. She's 85 years old. And - and sort of had to kind of lie down on the side of this motorbike.
But, yes, it was a really - you know, the - a first description of what - of what - of what's going on inside Gaza, certainly for her group of hostages.
HARLOW: What about the fact that there is this new reporting from "Axios" -- we just had the reporter on earlier in the program -- that Israel is willing to hold on a ground incursion, to hope for a big group of hostages to be released. As we couple that with Netanyahu saying, look, a very long wars is ahead. The IDF saying, we're ready to go by air, land and sea.
From all your reporting over so many years in the region, do you think Israel pauses, waits and hopes for a big group of hostages to come out?
AMANPOUR: You know, I don't think it's about hope. I think there is so much negotiation going on, including with Israeli negotiators and mediators who have their Hamas contacts, as well as Qatar and others who have their Hamas contacts.
And remember, though, these are mostly with political Hamas. And no matter what anybody says, there is a growing feeling that there may be a big division between political and military Hamas. At least that's what one of the Israeli negotiators said.
So, what we've seen is that over the last 24, 36 hours, the United States, in not so many words, but you had John Kirby on your own program who basically said, we would like to leave some kind of space, as long as we can, to allow for negotiations. This in the immediate aftermath of the two Americans being released.
[08:55:03]
And then last night on my program I had just more details from a very senior Israeli journalists, who really does have the pulse of the nation, and has been traveling around to the devastated areas near Gaza and talking to many, many people. There is a shift in public opinion in Israel, she says, whereby the initial, you know, very strong statements about quote/unquote crushing Hamas from the government has now -- the people want to see -- actually, no, they want to see more time for their loved ones to be released. They feel that the release of the hostages, at least the civilians, need to be the priority right now.
So, all that's going on, including people like President Macron and others who are visiting. And all -- expressing solidarity with Israel. But also expressing concern. Not just for the hostages, but also for the humanitarian disaster and the catastrophe that's unfolding in Gaza as we speak.
HARLOW: Christiane Amanpour, as always, with the big picture. Thank you very, very much.
And thanks to all of you for joining us.
You are looking at live pictures of Capitol Hill. At any moment, House Republicans are set for a closed-door meeting where they will try again to determine who will be the speaker of the House.
We'll see you back here tomorrow.
"CNN NEWS CENTRAL" is next.
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