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Meadows Granted Immunity; Richard Peeperkorn is Interviewed about Aid; Rep. Chris Murphy (D-CT) is Interviewed about Israel. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired October 25, 2023 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:00]

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Trump, he said, quote, was the only one who could accept them.

MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: This is not about Donald Trump versus Michael Cohen or Michael Cohen versus Donald Trump. This is about accountability, plain and simple.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: And, Poppy, we do expect to see Donald Trump back in court today. But one thing I do want to point out, and I think it's always important to mention when we are talking about Trump's mounting legal issue. While he was in court yesterday, while he was sitting there hearing testimony against him, he was able to help tank House Republican Tom Emmer's speaker bid with a Truth Social post. That just goes to show that you despite again all of these mounting legal issues, he still remains incredibly popular within the Republican Party as he seeks another term in the White House.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. Totally with that one post.

Kristen Holmes, thanks very, very much with the reporting.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Can I also just note the person who is now on the path to potentially be speaker was the leading Republican vote behind the effort to overturn the election through the Texas lawsuit. So --

HARLOW: But he likely won't get that post from Trump.

MATTINGLY: No, no, no, Trump will definitely be OK with Mike Johnson. But the fact that this is still a pervasive thing, even as you see a Jenna Ellis crying in court because of reading - all of this type of stuff, it's still so central to what happens in Washington with the Republican Party.

HARLOW: Yes, that's a great point.

MATTINGLY: Let's bring in CNN's senior legal analyst, former federal prosecutor, Elie Honig. Elie, I want to start by kind of ticking through some of the elements

of the ABC reporting. The idea that Meadows reportedly told federal prosecutors, under penalty of perjury, that he had never seen any evidence of fraud. Is that important here?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, that's a huge change in what we've heard from some of the key insiders. Mark Meadows, to me, if he is fully on board, if he is fulling telling the truth, he is the single most important witness prosecutors could have. Who's closer to Donald Trump - who was closer to Donald Trump during those key moments leading up to and during January 6th than Mark Meadows? And if we now have the chief of staff, a person closest to Donald Trump, the person who all the information filters in through to get to the president, and he says, I knew there was no fraud, I knew this was nonsense, that's a huge win for prosecutors.

HARLOW: What's also really interesting is that, according to this reporting, Meadows told Jack Smith's team of investigators he wanted to resign because of this stuff.

HONIG: Right.

HARLOW: Many times over his concerns that the allegations of fraud were not true, how they were being handled, but he didn't. He didn't resign. He kept doing this. And there is even part of the reporting that talks about him not believing some of the stuff in his own book.

HONIG: Yes, that makes him actually a bit of a problematic witness. First of all, the fact that he -- his book is 320 pages. It's filled with lies according to his own testimony now. And that's a problem. I mean, look, no witness is perfect for prosecutor, but now, if you are going to put Mark Meadows on the stand, he has to say, yes, I lied to the American public for a long time. My book is filled with lies, but now I'm telling the truth. There's ways to deal with that as a prosecutor. You have to explain why this person has now seen the light. But it does make him an imperfect witness to be sure.

MATTINGLY: There's a ton more to dig into on this, but can we play the sound from Jenna Ellis yesterday that we have because I just want to ask Elie about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNA ELLIS, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN LAWYER: I endeavored to represent my client to the best of my ability. I relied on others, including lawyers with many more years of experience than I, to provide me with true and reliable information.

What I did not do, but should have done, your honor, was to make sure that the facts the other lawyers alleged to be true were in fact true. In the frenetic pace of attempting to race challenges to the election in several states, including Georgia, I failed to do my due diligence. I believe in and I value election integrity. If I knew then what I know now, I would have declined to represent Donald Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MATTINGLY: Elie, I don't mean to have a cold heart. I have zero sympathy for this. And the idea that I'm just a young attorney who was misled by older attorneys who know much more about this, she's in her late 30s.

HONIG: Right.

MATTINGLY: She's been an attorney for a long time. She knew all these people.

HONIG: Yes. She's not as young as she seems to be suggesting. As you say, she's in her mid-30s. You have a responsibility as an attorney to do your diligence, to do your work. And let's remember, there ought to be a super cut (ph) because she was one of the most outspoken, aggressive proponents of the election fraud lie. She was out there all over the airwaves in front of microphones saying this is a fraud, this is the theft of the century. She's changed her tune quite a bit. But being charged can do that.

HARLOW: Just a really important point, being someone's attorney and counseling them does not also mean you have to go all over the airwaves and say things like that.

HONIG: Right.

HARLOW: Just quickly, this immunity granted to Meadows federally, what does take mean for the Georgia RICO case?

HONIG: So, Meadows is in a little bit of a conundrum here because he's worked out a deal federally, it seems. If he's been given immunity, that means DOJ, federal prosecutors, have said, we need your testimony, we're not going to charge you, we're not going to use your testimony again so practically (ph) we're not going to charge you.

But let's remember, he is a charged defendant in Georgia state court, in Fulton County. To me this sets the table both ways for Mark Meadows. He's got to reach a deal now with Fani Willis. Both sides are incentivized. If I'm Fani Willis, I say, great, you have this deal with DOJ, you're going to testify for them. We need you too. And if you're Mark Meadows it makes no sense to work out a deal where you're covered federally but still could be charged in the state.

[06:35:03]

So, if I'm Mark Meadows' lawyer, I'm on the phone with Fani Willis saying, hey, he's on board with the feds, how we going to work this out for him (INAUDIBLE).

HARLOW: Remember how you were saying this is not going to be 19 defendants in court. We've already had three pleas.

HONIG: We're down to 15. Keep an eye on it. It will keep going down.

HARLOW: Yes, thanks, Elie, very much.

Also this, back to the crisis in the Middle East. The World Health Organization says six hospitals in Gaza have been forced to shut down because of a lack of fuel. The agency's chief for the West Bank in Gaza joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: New satellite images appear to show Egypt sealing off the Gaza border in between aid convoys. So these images are from Tuesday. They show an unbroken shadow of a cement slab wall. And then you can also see a crane in the satellite image, which suggests that Egypt is able to lift the cement slabs to reopen and close the crossing quickly. Obviously, though to use such a powerful thing to block it sends a very, very significant message.

[06:40:04]

The images come as eight aid trucks out of the expected 20 entered Gaza yesterday and a U.N. relief agency says relief operations could shut down at the end of the day today. And, obviously, when you say eight out of 20, keep in mind, on a regular day it would be hundreds of trucks that would be going in. So, it's already almost nothing that would be going in, even if those were successful.

The World Health Organization says six hospitals in Gaza have been forced to shut down because of a lack of fuel to power their generators, and the U.N. says Gaza needs more than 42,000 gallons of fuel every day to power U.N. facilities, hospitals and other humanitarian aid. So, that's their number per day for humanitarian needs, 42,000 gallons per day.

Last night I spoke with Mahmoud Shalabi. He's a - lives in northern Gaza. He's a program manager for medical aid for Palestinians. He's staying there with his three young children. The oldest is only nine. Israeli airstrikes have hit very close to his home. He says the situation there is dire.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAHMOUD SHALABI, SENIOR PROGRAM MANAGER, MEDICAL AID FOR PALESTINIANS: So you can imagine if no fuel enters Gaza tomorrow, it will be a catastrophe for all parts of Gaza, but specifically for us in the north, as we don't even receive the basic food commodities that have been allowed and whatever have been, you know, brought to Gaza.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: He says that they need fuel, but Israeli officials say very clearly that that is not happening now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK REGEV, ADVISER TO ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU: There is actually a huge amount of fuel inside Gaza today which Hamas has. Now, if you could tell me, give me assurances, guarantees, that fuel going into Gaza would only go for civilian purposes, that's fine. But I don't think anyone can give me that guarantee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Joining us now is Dr. Richard Peeperkorn, the head of the World Health Organization office for the West Bank and Gaza, joining me from Jerusalem this morning.

And, Dr. Peeperkorn, I appreciate your time.

So, you heard the adviser there to Prime Minister Netanyahu, Mark Regev, saying that they need to have guarantees that any fuels that would be - fuel that would be allowed to go into Gaza would not go for anything other than humanitarian purposes. Is there any way to make such a guarantee?

DR. RICHARD PEEPERKORN, WHO REPRESENTATIVE FOR THE WEST BANK AND GAZA: Good afternoon.

Yes, I think there is. Let me give you an example.

BURNETT: OK.

PEEPERKORN: WHO, over the last two days, we deliver actually essential medical trauma supplies and essential medicines to several hospitals all over Gaza, including in Sevanal (ph), who's north (INAUDIBLE) Gaza. So, we can do that and we can manage that. We can also bring the fuel there.

I want to make the point so -- that my team, who was accompanying our transporter, and they're seasoned - they're seasoned medical doctors, Gazans, they've never seen such scenes before. The supplies needed for the operation (INAUDIBLE) ripped off the trucks and directly brought into the operation theater.

So, on the fuel situation, UNRWA is coordinating this. And indeed like we - we don't have fuel left for I think one - one whole day or something like that. It's not just fuel for hospitals requirements, but there's also fuel for water desalination plants, for bakery, and, of course, to run the UNRWA core operations.

BURNETT: Yes. And so - so - I mean it's significant that you're saying you think you can make those guarantees. Obviously Israel is saying that that -- they believe that that -- that cannot be done. They say Hamas has already tried -- attempted to steal fuel.

You said something though, Dr. Peeperkorn, there, that I wanted to give you a chance to elaborate on, if you're willing. You said that your teams on the ground have never seen such scenes before. We've heard about operating without morphine. I've spoken to doctors there and the excruciating exhaustion and pain in their voices is palpable. But can you talk specifically about these scenes that no one has seen before and give people -- let us see them.

PEEPERKORN: Yes, I want to go back to the former question, I think, the U.N., and the one U.N., I think, if we were able to bring those medications and food, et cetera, to the facilities who need it most, we also are able to bring the fuel to those facilities. Boing back to your question, yes, they've never seen scenes like that

before. There's occupancy rates of 150 percent. (INAUDIBLE) hospital, there's 5,000 (INAUDIBLE) compound close to four - totally close to 40,000. (INAUDIBLE) at 12,000 (INAUDIBLE). They have to do operations - operations in -- smaller operations on the corridors, et cetera. They cannot do proper - yes, they -- there is no - there's a lack of anesthetic. So, many of those operations are taking (ph) without anesthetics.

And going back to the (INAUDIBLE), they - they're - they've (INAUDIBLE) the ICU units (INAUDIBLE). There are - there are neonates, et cetera. And - and if there's no fuel, I mean it's a death sentence. It's a death sentence for all those critical -- critical patients.

BURNETT: Yes, a death sentence.

All right, Dr. Peeperkorn, I appreciate your time. T

[06:45:02]

hank you very much.

And, Phil and Poppy, back to you.

MATTINGLY: All right, thanks, Erin. We'll be back to you shortly.

Sources also telling CNN that American and military officials are using lessons from the Iraq War to try and steer Israel away from a ground incursion in Gaza. Democratic Senator Chris Murphy has said Israel should not repeat the mistakes the U.S. made in the wake of 9/11. He's going to join us live, next.

HARLOW: And an off-duty pilot accused of attempting to shut down the engines of an Alaskan Airlines plane mid-flight, now denying he had any medication but mentioned taking psychedelics days before the flight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Welcome back.

Sources tell CNN, American military officials are trying to steer Israel away from the type of brutal urban combat the U.S. engaged in during the Iraq War. Instead of a full-scale ground assaults on Gaza, U.S. military advisers are urging precision airstrikes and targeted special operations raids. This message to Israel comes as a key foreign relations voice in the Senate is invoking lessons of another war, Afghanistan.

[06:50:08]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Our tactics were often producing more terrorists and insurgents than they were eliminating. We were far too cavalier about civilian casualties and the humanitarian cost of our pursuit of the Taliban, and it ended up simply making the Taliban stronger.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That was Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, member of the Foreign Relations Committee. He also chairs the subcommittee that focuses on the Middle East.

And I'm glad you're with us this morning, Senator. Thank you so much.

I also think of your tweet where you wrote, "if thousands of civilians die in Gaza, terrorist groups will grow stronger and not disappear." Thousands of civilians have already been killed in Gaza. Is it too late?

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): It's - it's not too late. It is important that Hamas be held accountable. And I think Israel is trying to figure out how to bring to justice the perpetrators, the organizers of this attack, without a ground invasion. The world is safer if Hamas doesn't get away with this. The United States is less likely to be attacked by terrorists in future if the organizers of this plot are brought to justice.

But a ground invasion of Gaza has the potential to be unending. What we found in Afghanistan is that for every terrorist that we killed, we created two more because of the number of civilian casualties and the way that that provided bulletin board recruiting material to the Taliban. The same could happen inside Gaza.

The second problem Israel has is that there's no great solution for who runs Gaza after Hamas. But until you have settled those two questions, how to conduct a ground invasion without causing Hamas to grow stronger and what do in Gaza after Hamas is displaced from power, then I don't think your war planning is done. So, I, you know, agree that you - that Israelis has to think through these questions before they proceed.

HARLOW: So it seems what element would be crucial to answering both of those important questions that you posed is time. Is taking the time to figure out what is next and how to get these innocent civilians out or to safety. And that would require a ceasefire. Something that you called for just in 2021 during the escalation of violence then between Israel and Gaza. But the White House is - is not supportive of that and Netanyahu and the Israeli Defense Forces say no. What do you say? Is it time for a ceasefire?

MURPHY: Well, I think if people had called for a ceasefire, you know, 20 days after 9/11, there wouldn't have been a lot of sympathetic ears in the United States. A ceasefire in this case, I'm not sure it would be observed by Hamas. It would give them a chance to essentially move equipment and individuals away from harm, give them a chance to rearm.

I do think that what Secretary Blinken suggested yesterday is probably key, which is, you know, temporary pauses in operations and airstrikes in order to allow humanitarian assistance in and perhaps to allow the hostages to get out. So, that may not qualify as a ceasefire, but to stop hostilities for periods of time, for humanitarian purposes and to get the hostages out, that's something that I could - that I could support.

HARLOW: Because of the lack of fuel that Israel is - is not allowing into Gaza, the WHO says six hospitals, they are closed overnight. And Mark Regev, a senior adviser to Netanyahu, explained to Jake Tapper yesterday why they're not allowing it in.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK REGEV: The same fuel is taken -- stolen by Hamas. And as you've said correctly, they control Gaza. They're the only people there with guns. They can take what they want. They take that all for their military machine and they use that for -

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: For rockets.

REGEV: For rockets and for their underground network of tunnels and -

TAPPER: Right, for the oxygen in the tunnels.

REGEV: Correct.

TAPPER: Right.

REGEV: And -- and we obviously want to deny them that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: But at the same time, the WHO is specifically laying out, because of this lack of power, even 130 premature babies they said are at risk of dying. Is it a mistake for Israel not to allow fuel in?

MURPHY: It is. Fuel has to be let into Gaza, period. Stop. The consequences of fuel not coming in are so far reaching that it's hard to get your head wrapped around it. Yes, of course, the first thing you think about these hospitals that shut down, the NICUs literally can't power themselves. But it's also water treatment and desalinization facilities that can't operate. You could see a massive cholera outbreak.

It is possible to bring fuel into Gaza and direct it to hospitals, to critical civilian infrastructure, without it getting into the hands of Hamas.

[06:55:02]

UNRWA can do that. The Red Crescent can do that. You can put protocols and safeguards around the delivery of fuel to make sure that it gets to the right places. But it is simply not acceptable to cut the entirety of Gaza, including a million plus children off from fuel that keeps people alive.

HARLOW: Not acceptable for Israel to keep doing this.

Senator Chris Murphy, thank you for being with us. Come back soon. MURPHY: Thank you.

HARLOW: Hurricane Otis making landfall in Mexico as a category five storm. A first for the east Pacific. We're tracking that storm.

MATTINGLY: And the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is getting worse. As Poppy was just noting, the fuel shortages forcing hospitals to close. Matt Miller from the State department joins us just ahead. We're going to ask him how much needed aid can get into Gaza without getting into the hands of Hamas.

Stay with us.

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