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CNN This Morning

Matthew Perry, "Friends" Actor, Died at Age 54; Humanitarian Crisis Worsens as Israel Steps Up Gaza Strikes; Israel at War; Israel's War with Hamas Entered to "New Phase"; Interview with Negotiator for the Bosnia Peace Accords Ambassador Miriam Sapiro; Former VP Mike Pence Suspends Presidential Campaign; At the Republican Jewish Coalition Conference, 2024 Republican Candidates Looks for Donors; Interview with The Wall Street Journal White House Reporter Catherine Lucey. Aired 7-8a ET

Aired October 29, 2023 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:00:39]

AMARA WALKER, CNN HOST: Hello and good morning everyone. Welcome to CNN This Morning. I'm Amara Walker.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell. This morning, Hollywood is saying goodbye to 90s sitcom legend Matthew Perry. He passed away last night at his home in Los Angeles. The actor best known for playing Chandler Bing on the show "Friends" was 54 years old.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW PERRY, ACTOR: Tell you what, when we're 40, if neither of us are married, what do you say you and I get together and have one?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why won't I be married when I'm 40?

PERRY: Oh, no, no, no. I just meant hypothetically.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, hypothetically, why won't I be married when I'm 40?

PERRY: No, no, no.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no, what is it? Seriously, is there something fundamentally unmarriable about me? Well?

PERRY: Dear God, this parachute is a knapsack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: "Friends" was not his only well-known role. He was nominated for two Emmys for playing Joe Quincy on "The West Wing". Although. -- watch this. He poked fun at never -- actually bringing home that award.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PERRY: Kind of reminds me of when I won my first Emmy. We were -- I'm sorry, what? Oh, right. I haven't won a damn thing. Huh? Well, maybe today is the day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALKER: Always put a smile on my face. It makes me want to watch the reruns of "Friends" again. Perry also starred in a number of comedies like "The Whole Nine Yards" alongside Bruce Willis. But off camera, his life wasn't always picture perfect. The actor struggled with opioid addiction for years and recently shared details in a memoir.

Here's CNN's Camila Bernal with what we know.

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Amara, Victor, shock and sadness. That has been the reaction from Hollywood and from fans to the death of Matthew Perry. Police here in Los Angeles say that they are investigating his death, and this is according to a law enforcement source that spoke to CNN.

They responded to his home at 4:10 p.m. local time on Saturday. The Los Angeles Fire Department also telling CNN that the 911 call came in at 4 07 p.m. and this was for a water rescue emergency. Now, the Los Angeles Times is reporting that he died in an apparent drowning accident at his home here in L.A. And they cited a law enforcement source and said no foul play is suspected. Now we are, of course, waiting for more details on exactly what happened.

We know Perry developed a love for acting in his teenage years. He started with smaller roles and eventually landed higher profile roles, but it was being cast as the funny and very sarcastic Chandler on "Friends" that truly made him famous. Off screen, the actors became as close as the characters on the show and they famously negotiated together to become some of the highest paid actors on a television series at the time.

And despite the joy he brought to audiences, he also shared his struggles with addiction. He eventually was able to share many of those details with his fans and said that he wanted to share this in his book because he wanted to help people. Amara, Victor?

WALKER: Well, I'm sure he has helped a lot of people. Well today, tributes are coming in now for the late actor. Actress Octavia Spencer posted on Instagram that she is sending love to his family and friends and that he will be remembered forever. And Mira Sorvino posted on X that she hopes he finds peace and happiness in heaven.

BLACKWELL: Adele paused her Las Vegas concert as well to share her memories of watching "Friends".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADELE, SINGER: It's always quite shocking for many, especially someone that made you laugh. It brought so much joy to your life that you don't know. This is what I find so strange. I've never met him in my life.

It's, you know, it's happened with a few other comedians and stuff like that. But there's something so -- you feel so sad about it, especially because you don't necessarily know what was going on. But some of my favorite memories of when I was younger, with my friends, and one of my friends, Andrew, when I was like 12, did the best Chandler impression.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Warner Brothers Television, which is also owned CNN's parent company, Warner Brothers Discovery, put out a statement saying that they're devastated by his passing and that his comedic genius was felt around the world.

CNN's Laura Coates spoke with features writer for the Washington Post, Karen Heller, about Perry's roles on screen and with his struggle with addiction off screen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[07:05:10]

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR: Karen, it almost feels odd. I'm sitting here thinking about a life that's lost and so many people are remembering him with a smile. We're seeing him on the screen, the photographs with his co-stars. We're seeing that, you know, the closed mouth witty, yet mischievous, yet smug and fun smile he, of course, had and characterized him.

And there's something about a person like him who was on air for as long as he was in such an iconic role that people can't help but perhaps smile reminiscing about what he meant to their childhood, their teenagers, their young adulthood, their adulthood, and what his role meant to them.

KAREN HELLER, NATIONAL FEATURES WRITER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Right. Yes, I mean, this show was really pure joy. And what I think -- thinking about "Friends" for many years, not a lot happened on friends if you think about it. And remember what a shock it was when they finally put Chandler and Monica together because, you know, you love this sort of routines and the little.

You know, they got themselves into fixes. They got themselves out of fixes. You know, we depended on them to have certain kinds of reactions. I just remember how stunning it was when they put -- look at that -- when they put the two of them together and how mortified and how are they going to tell the group, and would it change the dynamics of it.

So, you know, that was to me the big -- the biggest event in some ways that happened on that show, was the writers and producers look at that, deciding to put the two of them together.

COATES: It's true, you know, you think about -- we joke about shows like "Seinfeld" being the show about nothing, right, or how often you'd have these sort of situational comedies between friends. And for so many people, they created a sense of what people thought it was like to live in New York to create a family out of friendships, to have the give and take.

Some who were childhood and high school friends like Ross and him, I believe early on or Monica and of course, Rachel and then growing into the other friendship between Joey Tribbiani and of course, Phoebe and her guitar and Central Perk and all the different aspects of it.

And you had a sense that you were, you know, you were kind of one of them. And yet, in spite of all we were seeing behind the scenes, he was really struggling. He was struggling with trying to land those -- the jokes night after night.

HELLER: Right. You know, the clip you showed earlier of him on Larry King, I looked that up, that is the one year he was sober.

COATES: Wow.

HELLER: So when he was talking to Larry King, according to his book, that was the only time that he was not drinking and taking massive amounts of drugs. And I think that's also -- what's so moving about this -- I mean, the loss is that on the one hand, there's all this joy, friends and his talent, even though it was known on the cast about his using, he kept working.

You know, "Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip", "Mr. Sunshine", "Go On", "The West Wing", "The Good Wife". He was in demand and he didn't just do comedy. I mean, he was really talented, but he did straight roles too on "The West Wing". And yet, there was -- he was in this elite group of six and yet he was separate because he was the one who struggled so, you know -- it's just epic to read about this.

And the book, I think, was as much therapy for him. He, you know, going on this tour. He talked so openly about the pain and the damage. He talked -- you know, I didn't spend that much time with him, but it was like a therapy session. He said he could have married five or six women, but he couldn't commit and he wasn't worthy of them.

He had to pay someone to live with him because he was so worried about using. And he said he was scared to be alone. And he's telling me this a stranger. He said an absolute -- here, I found the quote here. He said, "I have a never ending need for attention. But it's never the right kind of attention. It didn't work. It didn't fix the hole in me."

And that is also rare for somebody to be that honest. I think the book, he really saw the book as a way to fix him and to relaunch himself. He was hoping possibly that the memoir would be made into. A television movie, he hoped that he would get more work from it. He wanted the world to sort of -- he wanted to share his experience and hope to help people. But I also think it was extremely therapeutic for him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Wow. We'll have more on the passing of Matthew Perry throughout the show.

Still ahead, Israel says the next stage of its war with Hamas has begun after expanding its ground operations in Gaza. We'll take you back live at Tel Aviv. Also, more aid is expected to enter Gaza today as the humanitarian crisis there gets worse. And Israel's neighbors warn of destabilization. That's next.

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[07:10:15]

WALKER: The Israeli military is stepping up its ground in aerial activity in Gaza. IDF claims it has hit more than 450 targets over the past day, including Hamas command centers, observation posts, and missile launch sites. Israel says it is targeting a vast network of underground tunnels.

BLACKWELL: New video this morning shows IDF helicopters flying near the Gaza border. And CNN teams stationed near there have noticed an uptick in activity since the announcement of a new stage in this war yesterday. They've heard sounds of fighter jets and artillery fire and seen huge flashes on the horizon.

Israel's defense minister says the intensifying assault will improve his country's chances of freeing the hostages. The IDF knows of at least 230 hostages being held in Gaza. But Qatari officials worry that ground escalation will make negotiations more difficult. Both Israel and Hamas have said that they would support a prisoner swap.

[07:15:10]

WALKER: Let's go now to CNN's Sara Sidner, who is in Tel Aviv. And Sara, I guess you are seeing this uptick in activity as well, what's the latest?

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, from here, what you normally hear is you hear the blast, you hear the airstrikes in Gaza. It sounds like thunder basically in the sky. It rattles and is a deep low sound. But we also have seen over the past hour rockets that have come into the area.

We actually have seen the IDF Iron Dome intercepting those rockets one by one. There were probably less than a half dozen that flew over Tel Aviv itself. But, you know, look, as you sort of look at what has been happening, we are now in three weeks and a day since the October 7th Hamas attack on Israel, where more than 1,400 people were killed and you still have those dozens of hostages that Hamas has in Gaza.

But in Gaza, there is a humanitarian crisis that is unfolding in the sort of worst possible way because there's not only an Israeli blockade that existed, it got more severe, so you didn't have any food, any water, any fuel coming in and so you had the electricity go out.

The fuel fuels the electric plant that is there. The one plant that is there. You also have a serious problem with communications. Communications were all knocked out, according to Jawwal, which is the telecommunications that runs all telecommunications in Gaza, saying that because of the bombardments two nights ago that they had lost most communications, if not all communications, there was a complete blackout for a while.

There is a bit of communication, electronic communication coming out of Gaza now. But a lot of families still haven't heard from their loved ones. You've got eight agencies that haven't heard from their colleagues who are in Gaza, and there have been more members of UNRWA who has been on the ground for decades there in Gaza running things like schools who have lost more members who have been killed in airstrikes.

So it is a real catastrophe for civilians in Gaza now as this war goes into what Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called a second phase, which indicates that the ground war has begun, not in the large scale way that we were expecting but there are ground forces. There are Israeli soldiers that are now in Gaza.

I want to toss it over to my colleague Melissa Bell, who can talk to you more about what is happening in Gaza. And, you know, the world is having a hard time seeing because the communications are so bad now.

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Of course. What we're hearing, Sara, from the aid agencies who've been trying so desperately to get into Gaza these last few days, is that their communications are beginning to be restored with their teams inside, and so that gives them a better idea of what's going on. And the picture is quite catastrophic.

I'm just going to show you, first of all, some images from one of the refugee camps there in Gaza that was struck overnight. It was a strike that came, say, people who survived it. Unexpectedly, 13 people died. They'd been sheltering in a mosque inside that refugee camp.

These are people, Sara, who'd been displaced over the course of the last couple of weeks from the north of the Gaza Strip towards this area where they've been seeking shelter. And you can see there's some of the debris left in the wake of that strike that killed a further 13 overnight.

What we're also beginning to get from the aid agencies is an idea of just how desperate the situation is, Sara, with images. You mentioned there the U.N. relief agency for Palestinian refugees that works with them has done forever. Some of the images they've provided of some of their warehouses being overtaken over the course of the weekend.

People looking for food, people looking for hygiene supplies, flour, wheat, anything they can get their hands on because the shortages have become so dire. And I think this is why what we're hearing from the Israeli military this hour, which is that more aid trucks will be allowed in even though they say they need to keep checking them thoroughly because they're concerned about what's going in.

That is what we're hearing from the Israeli military is that there are no food shortages in Gaza. It is in stark contrast, Sara, to what we've been hearing from the aid agencies that have even before this conflict began been responsible for bringing in those much needed supplies.

Let me just give you an idea of one figure. The World Food Program expects that it's going to get a few more trucks in today. It says that over the course of the last two days, it's gotten nine trucks in. To give you an idea, that is 2 percent of what they used to get into the Gaza Strip before this latest escalation and I think that gives you an idea of just how great these shortages are with the U.N. Relief Agency for Palestinian refugees speaking now about the breakdown of civil order after these three weeks of escalation, of strikes and of a siege that has only gotten worse. Sara?

[07:20:17]

SIDNER: Melissa Bell, thank you. Yes, the aid agencies on the ground know what is happening and are experiencing themselves. It's really a difficult scenario for the civilians and those trying to help the civilians there. Thank you so much for that report.

I am joined now by former State Department negotiator for the Middle East, Aaron David Miller. You have a breadth of knowledge about this region and about this particular incursion and war that we're seeing. What is your take on what Benjamin Netanyahu called the second stage or phase of the war?

AARON DAVID MILLER, FORMER STATE DEPT. MIDDLE EAST NEGOTIATOR: You know, I think the prime minister who he likes to cast terms in dramatic and historical tile -- style, basically has elevated this conflict against Hamas to an existential level. He talked, quoting Hamlet, actually, that a state has two choices, to be or not to be.

And by equating this operation with as a second Israeli struggle for independence, he's clearly identified a extremely difficult objective, which is the destruction not only of Hamas' military capacity, but its very sovereignty in Gaza.

The problem that the Israelis face, I think, Sara, and you're there, you see it, is whether or not they have the means at their disposal to actually accomplish that task and to prevent Hamas' resurgence by engaging any number of actors that -- on which they are going to be become dependent.

Palestinian Authority, the U.N., the United States, the international community, Saudi money, all of these things mean that far from becoming a -- an Israeli war of independence, Israelis will be left, I suspect. However, the military campaign turns out being dependent on a number of actors to ensure that Hamas, assuming the Israelis can destroy it, essentially is not able to return to Gaza.

And I think the fact that they will not describe this as an invasion, they've been very careful maintaining flexibility in terms of exactly how they want to achieve that, reflects their indecision on one hand. And also, Sara, the frustration with the hostage negotiations. I think the Israelis believe they're being played by Hamas, no surprise there, in an effort to delay an invasion.

SIDNER: Look, we have heard from the Qataris that at first, just before this massive bombardment happened, that the negotiations were starting to make some progress for a large number potentially of some of those hostages to be set free.

And then we heard from Yoav Gallant, the defense minister in the speech, I know you were listening too last night. We were listening to it together. He said that actually the bombardments are good for the negotiations because it will force Hamas to the table. Do you get that sense at all, because so far that hasn't worked and there have been quite a few bombardments over these past three weeks?

MILLER: Clearly, the Israelis, I think, believe two things. Whether it's accurate or not, it's hard to say. Results will demonstrate, Sara, whether the Israeli tactics are accurate or not. Number one, to press Hamas, to make it unmistakably clear what the Israelis are prepared to do if Hamas does not release hostages.

And number two, Israelis all along have argued that once on the ground, they will be operationally in a better position to identify intelligence. And perhaps even rescue some of these people. I'm not entirely sure that either assumption is correct. There's just so much we don't know.

It's not even clear to me that the Qataris or the Egyptians have identified the right individuals to talk to with respect to this negotiation since some of the hostages reports indicate are not being held by Hamas or the Palestine Islamic Jihad but by individual Palestinians or families who kidnapped them in an effort to trade them for financial gain.

The Israelis dropped leaflets a week or so ago not for Hamas, indicating that they would offer financial rewards for Palestinians who would provide information on the hostages. So, I think it's an extremely confused situation, and it's so opaque that we really don't have a good sense of what the dynamic is.

SIDNER: You know, speaking of which, Hamas has said, look, it is ready for a full prisoner swap. We saw this prisoner swap. I was actually in the region at the time with Gilad Shalit, who was a member of the Israeli military who had been captured by Hamas and taken to Gaza.

[07:25:04]

And eventually, 3.5. -- or sorry -- 5.5 years, he was released. But in exchange, Israel handed over I think someone thousand people who they had jailed, Palestinians they had jailed, that Hamas demanded. Do you see this as actually something that is feasible now, that you would see something similar to this with now more than what they believe 200 hostages still being held by Hamas or Islamic Jihad?

MILLER: I mean, would the Israelis be willing to empty their jails, which is what Hamas wants. 5,000 plus Palestinian prisoners, some of whom have Israeli blood on their hands in exchange for all of the hostages. Every single one, not separating out or selecting the foreign nationals or the dual nationals while keeping the Israelis.

They asked Prime Minister Netanyahu during the press conference, because he was -- he presided over the Shalane exchange. I might add that one of the Palestinian prisoners exchange was Yahya Sinwar, who is now not only the key planner of this October 7 terrorist massacre, but essentially is the military leader of Hamas.

I don't know, frankly, right now whether the Israelis would agree to that sort of swap. It will turn Hamas, given the fact that Palestinian prisoners resonate so deeply on the Palestinian street, give it a heroic status. But Netanyahu's under tremendous pressure.

I think you saw that yesterday from the families in the press conference, to make the hostages not just a secondary objective. But there's a growing sort, of course, in Israel to make the redemption of the hostages a primary objective, primary objective.

SIDNER: That's going to be hard to do when you look at what's happening on the ground there. Aaron David Miller, thank you so much for your insight. Always appreciated.

I'm going to toss it back to Victor and Amara now.

BLACKWELL: All right, Sara, thank you. We'll see you in just a minute.

Other top story this morning, "Friends" actor Matthew Perry has died at the age of 54. More on his life and career when we come back.

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[07:30:00]

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW PERRY, ACTOR: Your disease is just outside, just doing one arm push ups, just waiting. Just waiting for you. Waiting to get you alone, because alone, you lose to the disease. And now, I finally feel OK, and feel like I've got some strength.

DIANE SAWYER, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: What does it mean to feel OK?

PERRY: It means that I've developed some safety nets around this, you know. For some reason, it's obviously because I was on "Friends," more people will listen to me. So, I've got to take advantage of that. I've got to help as many people as I can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMARA WALKER, CNN NEW DAY WEEKEND ANCHOR: This is just last year, "Friends" star Matthew Perry speaking about his struggles with addiction in an interview with ABC, saying that he felt OK now. Well, he was found dead from an apparent drowning accident at his Los Angeles home last night. He was 54.

According to "The LA Times", no foul play is suspected, but the incident is still under investigation by the Los Angeles Police. VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN NEWSROOM ANCHOR: Perry's most iconic role, of course, was the character Chandler Bing on "Friends." It earned him an Emmy nomination in 2002 and more roles on TV and in movies. Friends, fans, former colleagues around the world are remembering Perry.

WALKER: Variety editor Emily Longeretta spoke to CNN last night about Perry, on and off his screen legacy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EMILY LONGERETTA, SENIOR TV FEATURES EDITOR, VARIETY: He was so much more than just Chandler that we all fell in love with this character. And he was so much -- so open to sharing his struggles through the year and really was able to help other people around him. I mean, when his book came out, so many of his "Friends" co-stars, his former co- stars from "The West Wing", from "Sunset Strip." So many of them spoke about his kindness and the amount that he cared about other people and how great of a comedian he was.

I think it is so important that people realize that a lot of what Chandler was, of course, was in the writing and the tremendous writing staff on "Friends," but also was that he brought that cadence. Those famous lines that were delivered in the way he did was something that he actually came up with. He came up with the way that Chandler was delivering those, and I think it's really, really meaningful to talk about that and how great he was. That he wasn't just an actor that was reading lines on a page.

He really never stopped working. We see a lot of these '90s, early 2000s stars that kind of take a break from the spotlight. And despite anything he was going through, he loved the work and loved the industry and being part of it and really staying in the know. He would show up on talk shows and be supportive of his friends and co-stars, despite anything he was doing.

And I think I always think back to, you know, a movie he did with Zac Efron, that was just so charming. And he really was able to just lean into that charm and the way that the fans really loved him. And he wanted to always connect with them on a deeper level. And I think that's something that's really, really meaningful now.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: You know, Perry's struggle with addiction was widely known. As you pointed out, he was very open and transparent about it with his memoir. To the shock of many who really didn't know when they watched Chandler on "Friends", that he had these struggles, that he was addicted to alcohol and to drugs. But it was something that he opened up about in that memoir last year.

What more did we know about that addiction and, you know, his ability to overcome that addiction? Because at the time when he was doing the interviews for the book, he had talked about the fact that he was able to overcome it.

LONGERETTA: Yes, absolutely. It was so impressive to hear because he had said at one point, he was taking over 55 Vicodins a day. Things that were just absolutely shocking to anyone who had just watched him on screen and of course not known him in real life. And one of the things he said that really, while he was on "Friends", his cast really stepped in and said, we need to help you get help and we support you no matter what and we will stand by you.

[07:35:00]

And that's something that is so rare to have. And clearly -- and he credits the show just saving his life multiple times. And even the most powerful season, some might say, is when Monica and Chandler got married and he explained that even filming that episode, he was at rehab that morning and went back to a treatment center after filming that episode. So, I think it's just -- it shows so shocking to think about how much he was going through.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALKER: Still ahead, as the war in Israel advances to the next stage. Is there a peaceful path forward? We'll discuss.

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[07:40:00]

? WALKER: Israel has entered a new phase of its war against Hamas inside Gaza, with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu warning the world it is going to be long. But what happens when that war is over, and can there ever be peace? Ambassador Miriam Sapiro writes for cnn.com that peace is possible and it can be achieved following a roadmap developed during the peace talks that ended the war in Bosnia in the 1990s.

We are joined now by Ambassador Miriam Sapiro. She is a non-resident senior advisor at the Center for Strategic and International Studies and a former State Department negotiator for the Bosnia Peace Accords. Ambassador, a pleasure to have you on this morning. So, you say there is a template to find a lasting solution to this war right now, and you point to the Bosnia Peace Accords. You were a part of those talks. Tell me more.

AMB. MIRIAM SAPIRO, NEGOTIATOR FOR THE BOSNIA PEACE ACCORDS: Well, first of all, it's great to be with you, Amara. Let me just say, this is a horrific situation on the ground right now for both Palestinians and Israelis. They are both victims of Hamas. Israelis are still reeling from the worst attack it's ever experienced. Just to put the number in perspective, 1,400 Israelis would be as if Bin Laden had managed to kill 40,000 Americans on 911.

And for the Palestinians, they are powerless against Hamas, which controls every aspect of life in Gaza, and which hides its military assets, whether it's entrances to tunnels or command centers or munitions factories or rocket launchers amid schools, mosques, hospitals.

So, this is a very grim situation, and it's a tragic consequence, as you suggest of the inability over the years, despite many efforts to try and resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. So, as hard as it sounds, we really do have to begin to think through what a path to peace might look like. Otherwise, we're going to face the same situation again and again with more mourning and suffering on all sides.

WALKER: Yes, well, a two-state solution and talks of peace, I mean, it has remained elusive for so many years, it feels. And you write, in Bosnia, we developed strong incentives for each party to reach a deal, as well as disincentives for failure. So, what are those disincentives for Gaza and Hamas, and what would they be for Israel, because you also talk about aggressive diplomacy having to be deployed?

SAPIRO: Exactly. So, every situation, of course, is different and there are no easy answers here. But this experience with Bosnia can offer some lessons and some hope. That conflict was also intractable for a long time. Situation was very bleak. There have been over 100,000 people killed, and thousands displaced due to the fighting over territory and over control, and multiple peace efforts have failed as well. So, the U.S. decided it really had no option but to get more involved and more aggressive about trying to seek peace talks.

So, you know, as we think about Bosnia and we look to the Middle East, there are a couple of things that could be particularly helpful. One is, the U.S. refuse to deal directly with the Bosnian Serbs because of the leaders that had been associated with atrocities. And so, their interests are represented instead by Belgrade. And just as here, it is impossible to see Israel or the United States inviting Hamas to the table.

Second, as you mentioned, in terms of incentives for cooperating and disincentives for not cooperating. Here, I think, to give you some examples, the incentives for the Palestinians, for example, would be genuine reconstruction of Gaza for the 1st time, really. Laying modern infrastructure, both in Gaza and in the West Bank. Also trying to ensure there's greater access and movement within the West Bank, as well as between the West Bank and Gaza.

In terms of disincentives, those conversations are typically and most effectively done quietly. But I think it would certainly have to include curtailing support, different kinds of support, for all of the parties if, once this current crisis subsides, we're not able to see movement towards resumption of the peace process.

WALKER: You know, of course, where there is a will, there is a way. So, the question is, is there a will on both sides, right? And I know you offered up a critique of Benjamin Netanyahu's hard right government. It is the most right-wing government in Israel's history which, you know, has promised to expand Jewish settlements. We know the allies, the far right, ultra-Orthodox parties in his government have opposed Palestinian statehood. And, of course, on the Palestinian side, I saw, a poll taken by the Washington Institute back in July that showed that less than 40 percent of Palestinians in Gaza, West Bank, East Jerusalem, they do not support a two-state solution.

[07:45:00] And of course, as you know, the Hamas' founding charter calls for the destruction of Israel. So, how do we even begin to talk? Is there truly a will on both sides?

SAPIRO: Well, I think it also depends on how we define both sides, but I think your point about Israel is absolutely right. The previous government, not the unity government now there, but the previous government that the prime minister led, was not serious about peace talks in the sense that it was not accepting the two-state solution that had been the basis for talks since Oslo.

And so, I think one of the most important questions will be what kind of government, what kind of leadership emerges in Israel. It will need to, again, embrace, genuinely, a two-state solution, meaning an Israeli and Palestinian state can reside side by side with all people having the opportunity to live with security and with dignity. I think that's going to be fundamental.

Similarly, the Palestinian authority needs to be in a more viable position to represent the interests of the Palestinians. And that's going to take a lot of work from the U.S., from our states in the region from the E.U. as well to coordinate their support much more effectively so that they can really build institutions. You need in the West Bank for governance and ultimately, as well in Gaza.

WALKER: Yes. Well, this is obviously a conversation that will have to take place for quite some time. Ambassador Miriam Sapiro, appreciate your insight. Thank you.

BLACKWELL: Still ahead, Former Vice President Mike Pence has now suspended his presidential campaign. What sources are telling CNN about what led to that decision, next.

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[07:50:00]

BLACKWELL: Former Vice President Mike Pence has now suspended his campaign for president. He made the announcement Saturday at the Republican Jewish Coalition conference in Las Vegas. One source told CNN, there was major concern in Pence's campaign that he was not going to qualify for the third debate stage next month.

Now, this leaves eight Republican presidential candidates vying to take on President Joe Biden in November 2024. Donald Trump, Ron DeSantis, Nikki Haley, Tim Scott, Vivek Ramaswamy, Chris Christie, Doug Berman, and Asa Hutchinson. I tried to do that all in one breath, I did not make it. Several of them made clear at the conference that they would support Israel in the ongoing war with Hamas.

For more on that, let's bring in now Catherine Lucey with -- she's a White House reporter at "The Wall Street Journal". Catherine, good to see you again.

All right. So, let's first talk about Pence and then broaden it out. The question about a Pence candidacy from even before he made it official was what was his lane? He was too Trumpy for the never Trumpers. And if you like Trump, well, he's running so you can just support him. In the end, was that what ended the campaign?

CATHERINE LUCEY, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Hey, Victor. I mean, I think that was a big part of this. You know, Pence never had a clear space to occupy. The pro-Trump folks resented him for certifying the 2020 election results. The people who didn't like Trump thought he had been too loyal to Trump before that. So, there was never really an obvious space for him.

He spent a lot of time trying to court voters in Iowa, you know, where he had, you know, long -- had relationships with evangelical voters. It's such a crowded primary, a primary you can't get through in one breath that they had lots of other people to look at. And so, he just never really caught fire with anybody and has clearly been struggling. And as you said earlier, in his -- it was not clear that he was going to make the next debate. And, it didn't -- there doesn't seem to be much of a path forward.

BLACKWELL: Let's talk about the Republican Jewish Coalition, the event that happened on Saturday. The Former President, Donald Trump, has certainly a narrative and a story to tell from his record as president. Moving the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, the Abraham Accords, getting out of the Iran nuclear deal. Was this his room yesterday?

LUCEY: I mean, it really was his room in a lot of ways. He was greeted with a lot of enthusiasm, and he really tried to emphasize, you know, what he had done. He also turned a lot of his attention to attacking Joe Biden, his foreign policy, which kind of tracks with, you know, his efforts to look ahead to a potential general election, you know, even as he is still competing in the Republican primary. He did, though -- he took a lot of incoming from Nikki Haley, in particular, over, you know, comments he had made right after the Hamas attack. You recall, Victor, he criticized Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at the time. Called Hezbollah very smart, and he got criticism from Democrats and Republicans about that.

And Haley really tried to pivot the conversation to her foreign policy background. You know, talking about how it's time for new leadership. She said one thing I thought was really interesting. She said that --

BLACKWELL: Let's play a little bit of what Nikki Haley said.

LUCEY: Yes, please do.

BLACKWELL: All right. Let's play it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY, U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We cannot have four years of chaos, vendettas, and drama. We can't afford to go down that road. Not now. Eight years ago, it was good to have a leader who broke things. But right now, we need a leader who also knows how to put things back together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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BLACKWELL: So, on one hand, she -- at the beginning of this, of her remarks, said that she was proud to work with the former president on all the things that I just listed before you gave that answer. But says, we can't go back to putting him back in control of U.S. foreign policy. Did that work? Is she being able to walk that line, not just in the room, but as she continues this campaign?

LUCEY: It's a tough line, and we have seen that line challenge all of these, you know, alternatives to Trump throughout the primary, and obviously, you know, with Mike Pence. But Haley certainly is having a moment right now. You know, she has been rising in the polls. She has been emphasizing her foreign policy background. She has two well received debate performances. And she's really trying to make this more -- you know, more aggressively than anyone else. Trying to make this change argument that it's time for something different.

Of course, even as we talk about rising in the polls, Trump is so far ahead of everybody else in the field. So, she is moving up. You know, she does seem to be, you know, have -- she does seem to have moment, but it's a race right now for, sort of, who is the distant (ph) Trump alternative.

BLACKWELL: Yes, even as this race now narrows to eight candidates, if it narrows to two or three, the question is, could those two or three even challenge Former President Trump because he is in double digits ahead in almost all the state polls that I've seen and certainly nationally as well. Catherine Lucey, always good to have you. Thanks so much.

We'll be right back.

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