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More Aid Trucks Arrive In Gaza An U.N. Warns "Civil Order" Deteriorating; Netanyahu Apologizes For Post Blaming Intel Chiefs For Hamas Attack; Federal Judge Reinstates Gag Order On Trump In Election Case. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired October 30, 2023 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: This means the 14,000 UAW workers -- members on strike at Stellantis will be returning to work within days. UAW president Shawn Fain said they've, quote, "done the impossible."

A lot of the details in the agreement, I should note, are not yet known, but it follows a similar deal reached with Ford last week. The strike against GM -- that's ongoing.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Today kicks off a big week for the economy. Several key data points will be released. What they mean, especially for inflation -- that's ahead.

MATTINGLY: And new into CNN, the IDF confirming that Israel sent more ground forces into Gaza overnight. National Security Council spokesman John Kirby joins us to discuss. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL)

MATTINGLY: Well, happening today, an emergency U.N. Security Council meeting as the UAE seeks a binding resolution demanding a humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza. A U.N. official warned over the weekend that, quote, "The fabric of society is beginning to break down inside Gaza after thousands of Palestinians broke into U.N. warehouses desperate for basic goods like flour and hygiene supplies."

Joining us now is Andrea De Domenico, from the United Nations Office for Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. Sir, we appreciate your time.

I want to start with kind of the basic numbers that we've seen. There are reports that the number of trucks that may go through the Rafah Crossing may be expanded to about 100. Can you -- would that have a tangible effect on the crisis we're seeing right now on the ground?

[07:35:03]

ANDREA DE DOMENICO, U.N. OFFICE FOR COORDINATION OF HUMANITARIAN AFFAIRS (via Webex by Cisco): So, thank you for having me today.

Unfortunately, the current situation that we have lived through in the last days that has created a lot of civil unrest. And the looting of the warehouses that you have alluded, has also compromised our ability to logistically accept what we were asking as a scale-up of the operations. So while the ambition to move forward in increasing the number of trucks is a national requirement at the moment, now we are also scrambling to how to make sure that we can handle it.

It's -- you know, we will see where we will go. In the past, that we were trying to scale up the operations, it didn't happen at the pace we were aiming at. And now, as I said, trucks is just the beginning because honestly, the scale is much more larger than that.

MATTINGLY: But just to be clear, a beginning that you may not actually be able to handle because of the looting that we've seen over the course of the last 48 hours?

DOMENICO: Basically, what has happened is after the looting we lost control of the log base, UNRWA -- lost control of the -- of the log base. So now they are reassessing their ability to retake control of the base, resecure the base, and then we will be able to go to scale. In the meantime, they have found a transitional solution that will allow us still to accept as many trucks as possible, but I cannot confirm exactly numbers.

So it's a combination of those two factors and that, of course, has been caused because desperate people are simply seeking for some food and water, and whatever they can find. So it has been a stressed situation that we've been calling the (INAUDIBLE) since the last days and unfortunately, it unfolded the other night.

MATTINGLY: There has been a back-and-forth between U.S. officials and Israeli officials about shutting down the communications inside Gaza. U.S. officials have been pressing Israelis to bring them back up.

Can you -- what effect does losing communications and losing internet access have to the work that you try to do on the ground?

DOMENICO: So there are two fundamental aspects of it. One of the (INAUDIBLE) populations. Populations can -- people cannot call the 101 -- the ambulance service in Gaza. People -- we cannot connect it to the people that are on hold -- the premises were IDP -- the displaced people are. We cannot call our colleague and coordinate movement -- we cannot. So basically, this is shutting down operation ability if we do not have access to communication. And also, not enabling the people to reach services -- lifesaving services.

The other part -- aspect of it is the security aspect because the United Nations staff and the NGO staff cannot stay put if there is no secure communication that will allow us to communicate with that -- with them and exchange information. Even the mere understanding of what are the needs of the day. If we cannot go to hospitals, to desalination plants for the purification of water. The warehouse for distribution of the food.

There is no way we can operate without communication.

MATTINGLY: It's an incredibly important point and an incredibly dire situation. Andrea De Domenico, we appreciate your time, sir. Thank you.

DOMENICO: Thank you very much.

HARLOW: So, posters in cities across the United States designed to draw attention to the plight of people kidnapped by Hamas have also become a focal point of conflict and division. That's next.

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[07:42:43]

HARLOW: As the war in the Middle East continues, tensions are flaring thousands of miles away. Protesters in some cities in the United States drawing pro -- posters, I should say, designed to draw attention to the plight of people kidnapped by Hamas. They've also become a point of conflict. And in some cases, they've even been defaced -- look at that. Some taken down.

Joining us now, editor and foreign affairs columnist at Bloomberg, Bobby Ghosh. And staff writer at The Atlantic, Yair Rosenberg. Good morning.

The protests and the posters are becoming huge sources of tension, even violence. We were just talking about what has happened at Cornell University in terms of threats --

BOBBY GHOSH, EDITOR AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS COLUMNIST, BLOOMBERG: Um-hum.

HARLOW: -- to Jewish students there.

Your read?

GHOSH: Well, I think that people are being fired up by events that are taking place halfway around the world. It's not the first time we've seen this happen. But because these events have been so intense and so horrific, I think the passions that are being aroused here are sort of more than we see usually.

We're seeing the best of people as well. It's important to point out at this moment that we are also seeing the best of people. People coming out and protesting or at least making their voices known in sympathy with all civilians being killed on both sides.

Over the weekend, those amazing demonstrations in Grand Central Station over here. We saw people from Arab-American communities come out in the early days after the October 7 attack and express sympathy for what had happened there.

But now, I think we are seeing the other side. We are seeing people -- I suppose some of the worse angels of our nature are beginning to assert themselves. And as we see more video coming out from the region of horrific images of women and children and civilians being hurt, we're going to see more echoes of that kind here.

We're seeing it in the political space. There's political discourse between different politicians expressing points of view that are seen favoring one side over the other. And unfortunately, we are now seeing them take place on our streets.

MATTINGLY: There's the -- I think the political and social discourse here, which is obviously -- it seems to be ripping apart, depending on where you are and which college campus you're on.

[07:45:00]

But there's also the political discourse in Israel. You've covered Bibi Netanyahu for years. You have a really, really substantive, solid piece in The Atlantic in the course of the last two weeks that I would urge everybody to read.

But the first thing I want to ask you about is he tweeted something blaming the security services for what happened on October 7 and then he took it down. And then he apologized. Those latter two things I'm not sure I'm super familiar with him ever doing. Why?

YAIR ROSENBERG, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: Yeah. So, Netanyahu is in an extraordinarily difficult position politically, which is that he is the longest-serving Israeli prime minister and the entire essence of his premiership is premised on the idea that he would keep Israelis safe. Like, you might not like me, you might think I'm a liar, you might think I'm corrupt, but do you trust anybody else, right, to protect you and your family? And that argument no longer holds.

And he -- if he's going to survive politically, he needs to somehow rescue that reputation. So he is trying in a sort of trial balloon to offload the blame onto the security services that are very important in Israel but whose heads are largely appointed by Netanyahu, who has been in power most of this time.

And there was swift backlash across the political spectrum, right, within his coalition and outside his coalition that led to him basically realizing that the trial balloon didn't work. And he, like, stepped back and he apologized for the tweet. He didn't necessarily apologize for the sentiment.

And I would probably guess that his own, like, people are briefing him behind the scenes with the same ideas. They're trying to see this argument because they know he's going to have to make this argument if he's going to stay in power behind, say, this war.

HARLOW: It was interesting to hear Benny Gantz who, obviously, politically not totally aligned with him -- but part of the war cabinet coming out and saying we fully support our intelligence operations.

Your piece was so interesting -- "The End of Netanyahu" -- that Phil was referring to in The Atlantic -- and here is part of it. "The disaster of October 7 was the overdetermined outcome of years of Netanyahu's poor choices. In the end, the man known as 'Mr. Security' failed by his own standard, and he failed to fulfill the fundamental expectation of his fellow citizens."

You posed this as potentially the end of Netanyahu who keeps coming back despite corruption trials. He keeps holding onto power there.

Do you think this is it?

ROSENBERG: So, nobody really can push him out other than his own party, which may not happen. But eventually, there is going to be another election. It's on the calendar so to speak. And once he has to face voters -- if you look at what the polls are saying, it's just an astronomical collapse both in faith in the general right-wing coalition and in Netanyahu, particularly, to serve as prime minister.

And my piece is, in a way, way trying to explain why this is different because he could go on trial for corruption.

HARLOW: Right.

ROSENBERG: I'll very quickly tell you there is this iconic video clip of a woman on the street before an Israeli election -- this old Yemenite Jewish woman. And they're saying to her what do you think of Netanyahu and his wife? And she says oh, they're crooks. They also lie. They always cheat. I can't imagine how somebody could lie so much and so fast. And they're like who are you voting for? Oh, Bibi -- only Bibi, right?

And they said because if you -- like, nobody can do what he does, right? And he created this myth around himself that he could keep people safe. So you might not like him for other reasons but this is why.

But Israel was created to keep the Jews safe after the Holocaust and many other anti-Semitic assaults throughout their history. And Netanyahu, like, tied into that and said I will keep you safe. I will be the protector of Israel. That's what he always told interviewers for a decade that he wanted his legacy to be.

And so, you can't get back from, like, defining yourself around this idea and the preside over the worst anti-Jew (INAUDIBLE) since the Holocaust.

HARLOW: No. Your point about Mr. Security is really interesting.

MATTINGLY: Bobby, how much of his domestic political weakness -- which Yair writes in his piece is years in the making, particularly over the course of the last 18 months -- is driving the Biden administration's kind of full embrace/hug as they try and get them to head towards a direction and the response that is most palatable for the region?

GHOSH: I'm not sure Biden cares about Bibi's domestic problems at the moment. His -- he is trying to reassure Israelis, not Bibi Netanyahu. He's trying to -- and he is trying to send a warning to the enemies of Israel. He's trying, in effect -- I mean, he has to deal with Netanyahu. Netanyahu is the prime minister. If you go there you're going to have to shake his hand. But he's trying to look over Bibi's shoulder -- over his head if you like and speaking to his countrymen and to the region at large. And the trouble, though, is that among Israel's enemies and, to be

honest, in the larger court of international, sort of, public opinion, because Israel is so closely identified with Netanyahu because as Yair says he's been in charge for so long, Biden's embrace of Israel is going to be and is already being interpreted as his embrace on Bibi specifically.

And distancing himself from Netanyahu while trying to embrace is Israel -- now that's a very, very hard political act to pull off.

MATTINGLY: Yeah. One of the many complex issues that everybody's trying to figure out right now.

Yair, Bobby -- thanks, guys. We appreciate it.

HARLOW: Overnight, a gag order -- another one in Donald Trump's federal election subversion case -- it's been reinstated. It only took the former president 75 minutes to put out a post that could have him in hot water with the judge.

MATTINGLY: And as we were just discussing, President Biden urging Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to prioritize human life in its war with Hamas. The latest ahead.

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[07:54:12]

MATTINGLY: Well, late last night, the judge overseeing Donald Trump's federal election subversion case reinstated a gag order that had temporarily been put on hold. Judge Tanya Chutkan issued the order earlier this month after prosecutors raised concerns that the former president could intimidate witnesses or encourage harm against prosecutors through his public comments.

HARLOW: Judge Chutkan issued the reinstatement around 7:00 p.m. last night. Seventy-five minutes later, the president posted on Truth Social where he attacked his former attorney general Bill Barr -- a potential witness -- saying, quote, I called Bill Barr dumb, weak, slow-moving, lethargic, gutless, lazy, and a RINO" -- all caps here -- "WHO COULDN'T DO THE JOB."

Shortly after, he addressed the gag order saying, quote, "The corrupt Biden administration just took away my First Amendment right to free speech. NOT CONSTITUTIONAL!"

[07:55:00]

Let's talk about the Constitution with our CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig, and our senior political analyst and anchor John Avlon. Good morning.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST AND ANCHOR, AUTHOR, "LINCOLN AND THE FIGHT FOR PEACE": Good morning, guys.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK, FORMER FEDERAL AND NEW JERSEY STATE PROSECUTOR: This is a -- this is a discipline problem, really, first and foremost, by the judge. I mean, he can't help himself.

It's kind of like -- if you have kids I think you all know this situation. Sometimes you have a big punishment that they're -- that they know you really won't impose, and then there's a bunch of smaller punishments that the kids aren't really afraid of.

And that's what we have here. The big punishment is imprisonment. Any of these judges can theoretically imprison Donald Trump, but he knows that's almost certain not to happen.

The small punishments, which he doesn't really care about, are the financial punishments. I mean, he violated the other gag order twice, so far, and has been fined $5,000 and $10,000. I think in Donald Trump's mind it's great -- I'll keep doing this.

So I'm not exactly sure what these judges do other than hit him with really, really severe financial sanctions.

AVLON: The infantilization of Donald Trump continues.

HONIG: Right.

AVLON: I mean, literally, in that argument.

Look, this is a case where you just need to apply the law fairly and equally and adjust it for the fact that he can -- he can simply discard what would to normal working people be serious financial penalties, and act irresponsibly in a way that shows continued contempt for our courts and our system of justice. He can't be allowed to do it. Don't treat him like a child. He's a former president and should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one.

HARLOW: OK. I want to talk about what's happening in Colorado.

AVLON: Yes, please.

HARLOW: Can we?

AVLON: Ah, yes.

HARLOW: OK. There is a trial starting today in Colorado and it is over whether Trump violated the 14th Amendment due to these actions on January 6 -- the insurrection -- and therefore cannot be on the ballot, essentially.

AVLON: Correct.

HARLOW: OK. But there is a little precedent here for this being used against someone else, but go ahead.

AVLON: But this is incredibly important and has been widely ignored because people say this is -- this hasn't been enforced since the Civil War, in effect, although I will note has been enforced against two individuals who took part on January 6 -- elected officials in New Mexico and West Virginia who are now disqualified from running for office.

HARLOW: They were already convicted.

AVLON: Yes. But now let's just take a look at this. So the language up there is up there from the U.S. Constitution -- not a dead letter -- enforced. Saying, basically, you took an oath to uphold the Constitution and you participated or gave aid and comfort to an insurrection or rebellion. You are disqualified from holding office -- federal, civil, any office.

Um, most folks have been discarding this because it seems like such a long ball. It seems like such a dusty provision of the Constitution.

MATTINGLY: OK, look at this.

AVLON: Yeah, Elie Honig. And Elie will say that we've been debating this for over a year -- since the months and weeks after January 6.

HARLOW: People should hear the makeup room between the two of you.

AVLON: It's very fiery, yeah. And I usually win in the long run, Elie will acknowledge.

But the key thing here is that the Constitution is not a dead letter. I came to this through history. It is enforced unless amended or repealed. This is in the Constitution. It absolutely should wind its way through the courts. People who decide who has standing to serve on the ballot, like a local or state elections official in Colorado, absolutely have standing.

And conservative jurists have looked at this 120-page report saying this absolutely applies. It is enforced. Trump is culpable under it. And so, it should not be dismissed because it seems politically difficult.

MATTINGLY: So the reason I love John Avlon --

HONIG: You better bring it here, Mattingly.

MATTINGLY: -- is he just rolled over you.

HONIG: The great thing about John Avlon is he tells us how things ought to be in an ideal world, which I always say I agree. That would be lovely. I then come in and say but here is why it's not going to work that way, and here is why it's not going to work that way.

The Constitution, yes, has that very important clause saying you're disqualified if you participated or encouraged insurrection or rebellion. But neither the Constitution nor Congress in the 150 years since that amendment has been passed have told us how this work. And the problem is you can't just make it up now and apply it backwards.

Now, these scholars say it's -- and I quote -- "self-executing." What the heck does that mean? If -- who -- someone has to execute it. Why do you think we're in court in Colorado right now? And here's the problem. We don't know what this state-level judge in Colorado is going to do. It's possible that she, the judge, rules against Donald Trump. But if that happens I promise you two things will follow. Number one, the political backlash will go in Trump's favor. If we end up in a situation --

AVLON: (INAUDIBLE).

HONIG: Hold on. If we end up in a situation where --

AVLON: (INAUDIBLE).

HONIG: -- an unelected state judge says I'm removing him from the ballot, millions of voters in Colorado -- you're only going to have one name on the ballot. It's Joe Biden. Because I individually have found that Donald Trump --

AVLON: Honig --

HONIG: -- committed insurrection.

The other thing that's going to happen is it's going to get reversed on appeal. It's possible this judge does rule against Trump but then it's going up the line in Colorado and eventually to the federal courts. It's not going to stay.

AVLON: So our legal analyst is making a political argument.

HONIG: (INAUDIBLE).

AVLON: No, no -- you're making, essentially, a political argument, which is that we have a conservative court. They're going to be stacked and they're not going to read the Constitution as it's written. Despite all their protests to the contrary they're going to feel politically about this.

This is about the Constitution and what it says in the document and whether the Constitution matters. Self-executing -- those two legal scholars originally in the Federalist Society who wrote a 120-page report on this say it's self-executing because it doesn't require an act of Congress. It does require someone who decides who is on the ballot to interpret the Constitution.

And in this case and according to 14th Amendment scholars I've spoken to, the insurrection applies to this January 6 event and Trump is culpable. Now, whether or not people choose to discard the Constitution --