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CNN This Morning

4 Hurt in Ohio Shooting, Gunman Dead; Hostages' Families Demand Answers from Netanyahu Government; Today: Gag Order Ruling in Election Subversion Case; Weather to Complicate Thanksgiving Travel. Aired 6- 6:30a ET

Aired November 21, 2023 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

COY WIRE, CNN SPORTS: Averaging just 41 yards, and the Chiefs have two losses in those. But in the four games she's been there, Kelce has over 100 yards, K.C.'s undefeated. So they need to do whatever they can, I believe, to get her in the stands.

[06:00:14]

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: I was going to say. I mean, obviously, the Chiefs have to go to the Super Bowl. Obviously, Taylor Swift has to show up at the Super Bowl. Otherwise America, I think, is going to be very disappointed.

WIRE: Now we know how to beat them if you're playing against them. Just make sure Taylor doesn't go.

HUNT: For real. All right, Coy, thank you very much.

WIRE: All right, Kasie.

HUNT: I'll see you tomorrow.

Thanks to all of you for joining us. I'm Kasie Hunt. Don't go anywhere, because "CNN THIS MORNING" starts right now.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. We're so glad you're with us. Phil is off this week. Erica Hill by my side. Good morning.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.

HARLOW: Good morning. We have a lot of big news to get to this morning. So let's start with "Five Things to Know" for this Tuesday, November 21.

This breaking overnight, sad news to report. A gunman opening fire inside of an Ohio Walmart just days before Black Friday. Four people injured, and the gunman died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

HILL: There is movement in the talks to release hostages this morning. A Hamas leader now echoing what the White House is saying, that they are, in fact, getting closer to a deal.

New this morning, we could get a decision on Donald Trump's gag order in the federal election subversion case. The judge is signaling they could narrow it down.

HARLOW: The speaker of the House meets with the former president at Mar-a-Lago, though it's not clear what they talked about. This coms after Mike Johnson endorsed Trump for 2024 last week.

HILL: And Thanksgiving travel troubles. Get ready. Weather in the forecast for tens of millions Americans, and you know all about that ripple effect as a key airport and connection hubs face possible delays.

CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

HARLOW: And we do begin with the breaking news overnight. Police say four people are injured this morning after a shooter opened fire at a Walmart. This happened right near Dayton, Ohio. That shooter then took his own life.

HILL: Of course, this happening just days before the Thanksgiving holiday. Police say the man entered the store around 8:30 last night and began shooting. A woman recorded this video on Facebook Live shortly after the incident. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALISHA RING, SHOOTING WITNESS: You guys know anybody that's in Walmart right now, call and check on them, because he shot like ten times, and I don't even know how much more afterwards. But I just know I'm so lucky to be alive right now. He literally walked right past me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: And CNN's Jason Carroll joins us now. Walk us through what happened here, Jason.

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, we should tell you that the condition of the victims, unknown at this point.

This all started, as you say, at about 8:35 last night when a gunman walked inside that Walmart in Beavercreek, which is located East of Dayton. It's a suburb there. According to a witness, the gunman walked inside, started firing. Then he turned the gun on himself.

Police say the suspect died at the scene from an apparent self- inflicted gunshot wound. One eyewitness described what he saw when he was shopping and suddenly heard the shots.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTOPHER SUFFRON, WITNESS: While we were shopping, we were passing the Tide aisle and five to six shots rung out. And she looked at me and said, "Is this a joke?" And I said, "No, I know what that sound is. You know, I've been around gunfire in the past." And turned around and told her, you know, "Get behind me," and then I turned around and I was 10 to 12 feet from the shooter.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CARROLL: Guys, Walmart released a statement on the shooting, saying in part, "We're heartbroken by what's happened at our Beavercreek, Ohio, store. This remains a developing situation, and we're working closely with investigators on the scene. All questions should be directed to local law enforcement."

So, this Walmart has made national news before. It's the same Walmart where nearly ten years ago, police shot and killed John Crawford III, an African-American man who was holding an air rifle that he found on a store shelf when he was shot by police.

As for this shooting, it should also be noted that there has been more than 600 mass shootings in the U.S. this year.

HARLOW: Yes.

CARROLL: Guys, back to you.

HARLOW: On pace for a record, sadly. Jason Carroll, appreciate the reporting this morning. Thank you.

HILL: Well, just moments ago, a massive explosion -- you can see that cloud there -- seen in Gaza. This is just across the border from Israel. We're going to bring you more information on that as we have it. But as you can see, quite the cloud there from that explosion.

All of this as, overnight, Hamas's leader said the militant group is close to reaching a truce agreement to release hostages as the Israeli military's ground assault grinds on.

And that comes after the White House had said that negotiations -- negotiators, rather, were closer now than they've ever been on a potential deal. Important to note, though, there is still work to be done.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[06:05:08]

JOHN KIRBY, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL SPOKESMAN: We are laser-focused on the American citizens that we know are being held hostage. And we want them out. All of them, everybody should be out now. But here we are in a negotiation. And we're getting closer to the end, we believe, of that negotiation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Key words, "getting closer to the end, we believe" from the White House.

Meanwhile, anger and frustration growing in Israel. Those are the families of hostages. They are demanding more action and more transparency from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his government.

We were able -- some were able to meet with Netanyahu and his cabinet yesterday. And at a heated Knesset committee hearing, family members confronted Israel's national security minister and other far-right members of that government. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

GRAPHIC: Maybe instead of talking about the dead, talk about the living. Stop talking about killing Arabs. Talk about saving Jews. This is your job.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

GRAPHIC: You have no monopoly on pain. We also buried more than 50 friends.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: They're saying there, talk about the living. As we bring in Oren Liebermann, our correspondent on the ground.

Oren, you know, that was just a sample of an incredibly heated meeting there about what is being done and how much they believe the Netanyahu government is doing or not doing, they believe, to bring home their loved ones. What can you tell us this morning?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's clearly quite a measure of frustration on the part of the families of the hostages held by Hamas in Gaza, because they haven't seen their loved ones yet, haven't gotten concrete information on their condition or when they might be coming home.

We've heard from the White House, we have heard from Hamas that a deal is close, closer than it's ever been. But as one Israeli official cautioned me, you can still be 99 percent of the way there but then you're still 1 percent away from it happening. And it can all fall apart in that 1 percent as they try to hammer out the final details.

Whether that's the number of hostages released, how they're released, how quickly they're released, how long of a pause in fighting in order to release a certain number of hostages. These are the details where we understand this keeps getting tied up and effectively not getting over the finish line.

As we saw, a number of the families of the hostages met for the first time with the war cabinet at the defense ministry behind me here in Tel Aviv. They waited for hours for that meeting. It lasted several hours on its own.

We spoke with one of the family members there. And he left early because he said there was no new information. And although it was certainly good to have a meeting, there was quite a bit of anger on the part of the families when they pressed the government, including Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, on whether the release of the hostages was No. 1; and the answer they received was, it's not No. 1. It's at the same level of defeating Hamas. That's clearly not the answer they want. They want to hear that the

government is doing and the war cabinet is doing whatever it can to make sure the main priority, the only priority is bringing home their loved ones.

HILL: Yes, certainly. And understandable. Oren, appreciate it.

And we should share with you, as well, we just got a statement from Benjamin Netanyahu. That statement reads, "Returning our hostages is a sacred and supreme mission to which I am committed. We will not let go of the mission to return them, and it is my responsibility as well as the war cabinet's."

So, perhaps heard some of it, but again, to your point, Oren, still not the answer that I think many of these families were looking for. There was also an attack on a hospital in Northern Gaza yesterday, different hospital. What more do we know about that?

LIEBERMANN: So, this is focusing on the Indonesian Hospital in Northern Gaza. It is one of the few functioning hospitals left, as many of them have already shut down for a lack of resources: lack of fuel, lack of water, lack of the ability to treat patients.

Health officials there say an Israeli strike killed 12 people inside the hospital, including patients and a member of the medical staff. That as we've already seen video and pictures from the hospital showing kids lying down on cardboard on the -- on the floor, which speaks to the conditions that already existed before the strike.

The World Health Organization says they were appalled by that strike on the hospital. Israel defending its actions, saying it was in compliance with international law and followed the principles of proportionality and distinction.

A foreign policy adviser for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu telling CNN that Israel is the most moral army in the world.

HILL: Oren Liebermann, appreciate the reporting. Thank you.

HARLOW: So this morning, a federal appeals panel is expected to rule on a gag order in Donald Trump's federal election subversion case. The panel has signaled that that gag order will mostly be reinstated, but narrowly. The three panel -- the three-judge panel heard oral arguments yesterday in what was a tense, two-hour hearing in Washington.

HILL: Trump's legal team argued the gag order violates his free speech rights. The judges are trying to thread a needle here on that question. When does political speech derail or corrupt the criminal justice process?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE PATRICIA A. MILLETT, D.C. CIRCUIT COURT: There's a balance going that has to be undertaken here. And it's a very difficult balance in this context. And we certainly want to make sure that the criminal trial process and its integrity and its truth-finding function are protected, but we've got to use a careful scalpel here and not step into really sort of skewing the political arena, don't we?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[06:10:27]

HARLOW: Zachary Cohen joins us live in Washington. I mean, the fact that that judge said "We have to use a careful scalpel," and we have to weigh these things, I think, just shows how much, again, this is unprecedented, to have a case like this with a front-runner in an election for president. They have to weigh these things very carefully.

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. We're seeing precedent being set in real time.

HARLOW: Yes.

COHEN: Because it is unprecedented, as you said. Look, the judges did indicate yesterday, though, they are open to restoring a version of this gag order on Donald Trump. And one that might actually let him attack special counsel Jack Smith more directly on the campaign trail.

Trump's lawyers really took issue with how broad the original gag order was. They said that it essentially would not allow the former president to defend himself outside the courtroom and that he was in a unique situation, because he is in the midst of a heated political campaign.

The panel of judges was a little -- was skeptical about that as saying, No, not everything qualifies as political speech and no, Donald Trump cannot say whatever he want.

But they were open to nailing down on certain areas where he could speak out publicly, and one of those was about Jack Smith. Take a listen to what two of the judges said yesterday when they were discussing this issue of political speech.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE CORNELIA PILLARD, D.C. CIRCUIT COURT: Well, it can't be that he can't mention Mr. Smith. Surely, he has a thick enough skin. He's on this team.

MILLETT: He has to speak Ms. Manners while everyone else is -- is throwing targets at him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: So, we'll see what the appeals court rules. It could come as soon as this morning. But as you said, unprecedented ruling. Unprecedented hearing yesterday and more to come, I'm sure.

HARLOW: For sure. We'll see what happens. Thanks, Zach. Appreciate it. HILL: A growing divide among Democrats over President Biden's handling

of the Israel-Hamas war. This is now the second senator, he's calling for a ceasefire.

Plus, how the White House is responding to protesters labeling the president "Genocide Joe."

HARLOW: Also, severe weather could disrupt your travel. Hope not. But take a look at that map as people head out for Thanksgiving. We're tracking the storm.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:16:14]

HARLOW: Well, new this morning, Democratic Senator Jeff Merkley is calling for a ceasefire between Israel and Gaza but with conditions. This is what he writes in a statement.

Quote, "The ceasefire requires an immediate cessation of military hostilities by both sides, but the ceasefire and the negotiations that follow must accomplish a number of objectives or it will not endure. Hamas must release all of the hostages without conditions and lay down all their arms."

HILL: Merkley joined Senator Dick Durbin, who has also called for a ceasefire.

And a group of 13 Democratic senators wrote a letter to President Biden, calling for the administration to work with Israel to open its border to allow humanitarian assistants for Palestinians into Gaza.

And all of this, of course, coming as the White House is pushing back against protesters now dubbed the president "Genocide Joe" for his stance on the war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIRBY: This word "genocide" is getting thrown around in a pretty inappropriate way by lots of different folks. What Hamas wants, make no mistake about it, is genocide. They want to wipe Israel off the map. They've said so publicly.

And what happened on the 7th of October? Murder, slaughter of innocent people in their homes or at a music festival. That's genocidal intentions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Joining us now, the writer of "The Very Serious Newsletter" and podcast host, Josh Barro. And Hagar Chemali, former spokesperson for the U.S. mission to the U.N. and host of the "Oh, My World" web series. Thanks so much.

Let me just start with you, given your experience in the government dealing with issues, exactly what John Kirby is talking about. He says that the word "genocide" is being used too casually here. And certainly, the White House is not happy to see it being applied to the president. Can you -- can you speak to this issue?

HAGAR CHEMALI, FORMER SPOKESPERSON FOR U.S. MISSION TO THE U.N.: He's absolutely right. I was surprised, to be honest with you, at the beginning. Genocide is a legal term.

It's -- it is where you have the deliberate killing and -- and ethnic cleansing of a group of people specifically because of that group, with the intention of wiping them off the map, basically. And proving intent is --

HARLOW: Which is part of the Hamas charter, by the way, when it comes to Israel.

CHEMALI: Yes, 100 percent. And it's very clear. I mean, Hamas makes no -- makes -- it doesn't hide the fact that they want to annihilate Israel and that they want to pursue, quote, "jihad" against Jews in order to do that.

And so it is absolutely part of Hamas's goal. But then to apply it, in part, in this war -- and it's not to say, by the way -- I'm not trying to diminish the ugliness of war. You have numerous wars around the world. The war in Syria, for example, which killed almost half a billion people was not dubbed genocide.

And so, genocide is a legal term. It's meant to imply specifically the intent to kill a group of people because of their background. And proving that intent is critical.

And using that word inappropriately, it just -- it further polarizes things. It divides things. It -- it undermines the foundation needed for peace. And it's just -- it's not an appropriate way.

And it's certainly not appropriate to apply to the president when he is supporting Israel in this because if this were to happen here, by the way, when you're talking about a terrorist group like Hamas or any Islamist radical group, these terrorist attacks can happen here. They have happened here. When he's pursuing this effort, it's -- it's as much a war of deterrence as much as it is to defeat Hamas.

HILL: You talk about the legal definition. Understanding the terms. The way things are getting thrown around. The reality is, it's further enflaming an already enflamed rhetoric, right, and a divide that is growing every single day. Is what we're hearing from John Kirby the best way to combat that in this moment?

JOSH BARRO, WRITER, "VERY SERIOUS" NEWSLETTER: Well, I mean, it is what it is. I don't think a protester out there calling the president "Genocide Joe" is a gettable voter for the president.

There's always going to be a left element that, you know -- that rejects the Democratic Party. The extent to which that speaks for a large portion of the electorate, I mean, clearly there's a large generational divide within the Democratic Party about Israel.

I don't think the election that we have next year is going to be about Israel principally. I think it's going to be about domestic issues.

[06:20:04]

But, you know, the -- when you look at that Merkley statement. where he says there should be a ceasefire and then he says that Hamas should lay down its arms. They should unconditionally release the prisoners. They cannot govern Gaza anymore. I mean, none of that is going to happen.

And so, you know, I think part of it's easy to look at all of this from the United States and say, if -- if all of the people on the ground over there had a more reasonable set of preferences and ideologies, it's very easy to fix the situation. You know, you can draw the map for the two states and say people should be satisfied with this. This should be the solution.

But you know, we have a history of decades of those sorts of agreements being rejected. The Palestinians have rejected them over and over. The Israelis have been basically trying to gradually annex the West Bank with the expansion of settlements that is aimed at preventing a two-state solution.

You know, if the U.S. could fix this problem, it would have been fixed already.

HARLOW: But speaking to the West Bank, can you speak to how significant it is that the Biden administration the past couple of days have said that they would essentially put these sanctions on people that go after Palestinians in the West Bank. I don't think we've seen that since Clinton.

CHEMALI: No. When I saw that piece of news, it felt like it was -- it came out there, and then it was -- no one really covered it that heavily.

HARLOW: What does it actually mean?

CHEMALI: It is significant. Well, so, the U.S. for a long time has viewed settlements as a major problem and a major sticking point to peace negotiations. There haven't been the principal spoiler. But by the way, Hamas suicide attacks have been the principal spoiler in peace process negotiations over the last few decades.

But -- but the settlements are a major problem. They're not -- the U.S. views them as illegal. They are -- they've always been a problem, because they are -- they undermine the ability for a two-state solution. If you've got hundreds of thousands of settlers in the West Bank, and many of whom pursue very -- some pursue violence. Some are pursuing tough or provocative policies. They are guaranteed protection by the IDF. It undermines the process for peace.

And the United States, which is in a position of -- by the way, not only supporting Israel but the U.S. also provides a lot of support to the Palestinians financially. The U.S. has an interest in solving this problem, in having two states and this has been one of the sticking points. But for them to come out there and say, we're going to go so far as

sanctioning those individuals is -- is the strongest step I've ever seen.

HARLOW: What does it actually mean? And what would it look like?

CHEMALI: Well, it's -- it's a little bit hard to see if they're going to actually identify each individual settler.

HILL: Yes. To your question, how do you enforce that?

CHEMALI: Yes. You -- I mean, technically, you could identify each individual settler and put them on a sanctions list. My guess is that they would do it by settlement and say that this settlement overall is sanctioned and, therefore, if let's say, they produce oil, then they're not going to be able to sell that olive oil. Sorry, I'm talking about olive oil. They're not going to be able to export that olive oil, for example. I'm just giving a random example.

Maybe there's a leader of a certain movement, pushing for a settlement. And again, so then they'll go after that leader specifically.

And that is kind of how sanctions work in general. But, yes, it was definitely a strong announcement. And something I didn't expect to see coming from the administration.

HILL: Karine Jean-Pierre was asked at the White House briefing yesterday specifically about this growing divide that we've seen in terms of support and how it breaks down when you look at this by age. Here was her take.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: But what I'll be very clear about is we're going to -- not going to govern by polls here. We're going to -- or poll numbers. We're not going to change the minds of Americans. I get that. Americans are going to feel how they feel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: I get that answer, and yet my question is what's the real conversation, do you think, Josh, privately that is being had in the White House about this?

BARRO: I mean, look, it's clearly a bad political issue for the president. But you know, he doesn't, you know -- he doesn't choose geopolitical events. And so I think, you know, they realize that they have been dealt a very difficult political hand here.

This is an easier issue for Republicans, where you have voters who are basically broadly aligned within the coalition. But so it sort of makes sense to take the perspective that she has there. If they -- if they can't do anything here that -- that is going to please the broad political coalition, they might as well do what they think is the correct course. HILL: But do you think there's anything happening behind the scenes?

Do you think there's actual concern?

BARRO: I'm sure. But I mean, again, I think you know, the U.S. has limited ability to create the sort of situation on the ground that it wants there.

I mean, you know, if Israel was truly a client state of the United States, there would not have been Netanyahu governments through the Obama administration. We didn't want Israel pursuing a set of various policies that it had there.

And to the extent that Biden leans on Israel, the Israelis know that there will be an Republican administration sooner or later that will be reliably supportive of whatever it is that they want to do. And that reduces the extent to which they feel the need to move because the U.S. president says they need to.

If there were a broad shift in U.S. politics that was bipartisan, it would be possible to put somewhat more pressure on Israel. But again, you know, this is -- this is not domestic politics. I feel like people sort of weirdly talk about this like we get to make the decisions here, and ultimately, this is a foreign war thousands of miles away, involving other -- involving other parties.

HILL: It's a really important reminder. Right?

BARRO: Yes.

[06:25:02]

HILL: Yes. Thank you both.

HARLOW: New developments in the OpenAI drama. Nearly all of the company's employees threatening to quit unless their fired CEO, Sam Altman, is reinstated. We've got reporting on that.

HILL: Plus, the Super Bowl rematch of the season. You've got the Kelce brothers facing off on the field. So who was watching? Who wasn't watching? That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: And a live look inside Reagan National Airport, just outside of D.C., as the Thanksgiving travel crunch is under way. There are some severe storms, though, threatening travel for 27 million people today.

Allison Chinchar keeping an eye on all of it. Good morning. What can we see?

ALLISON CHINCHAR, CNN METEOROLOGIST: And good morning.

Well, there's a lot of rain. There's some snow. There's also some very gusty winds. And we've got several different systems here. So it's spread out over quite a wide area. You've got rain and snow off to the Midwest. And then possibly severe

thunderstorms down across the Gulf Coast.

We begin on the North side right now. We've got heavy rain moving through Chicago, Detroit, Columbus, down through Cincinnati. You've also got some of that snow mixing in across portions of Wisconsin and Michigan.

Farther down to the South, rain spreading into Birmingham, Charlotte and then some stronger thunderstorms down there along Mobile, Alabama.

Now today the best potential for the strong-to-severe thunderstorms exists.