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Sources Say, Hostage Deal Announcement Between Israel and Hamas Could Come as Soon as Today; Temporary Ceasefire Potentially Would be Extended for More Hostages to be Released; White House Says, Not Going to Govern by Polls as Disapproval of Biden's Handling of Israel-Hamas War Grows. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired November 21, 2023 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: To also halt those flights.

[07:00:00]

The answer is likely yes because Hamas, of course, is going to be expecting likely that all of the drone flights be halted, but that is a key question in the coming hours as well, guys.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Okay. Natash, M.J., Oren, thank you, incredibly significant reporting. Stay with us, we're going to continue to follow this.

And it is the top of the hour. We have significant breaking news in to CNN. A hostage deal between Israel and Hamas could be imminent. It could be announced as soon as today. That is what multiple sources tell CNN.

M.J. Lee is at the White House with the breaking details. And this is not just a couple of hostages. We're talking about potentially 50 here, right, M.J?

M.J. LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right. We are talking about initially 50 hostages. That is women and children being released in exchange for four to five-day pause in fighting and also in exchange for three Palestinian prisoners for every one hostage that is released.

The hostages we are told are of various nationalities and U.S. officials are hopeful that a three-year-old American toddler, who is being held hostage, would be in the mix of that initial 50 hostages that is released. It is unclear at this moment, though, whether there are going to be other Americans in the mix of the 50 hostages released.

Now, importantly, during the pause of the four to five days, Hamas has agreed to or will agree to, if this agreement comes to fruition, stop flying surveillance drones over Northern Gaza. This would be at least six hours a day, we are told. We are also told that the idea is that during this pause, Hamas would use the stop in fighting, the cessation in fighting to try to gather up more hostages, more women and children. And if that were to happen, then there is the potential for this pause in fighting to be extended so that more hostages can get out.

Now, another important piece of this, of course, is the idea of humanitarian aid that would go into Gaza. U.S. officials and others have been pushing for as much aid to go in as possible. Hamas has been making the point from the beginning that a pause is necessary for more aid to go in. U.S. officials, I think, would certainly agree with that.

But, of course, this has been an incredibly contentious area of negotiation because one thing that Hamas is pushing for a lot of is fuel. And fuel, as many experts have said, is exactly what helps to shore up its military operations, like ventilating underground tunnels and everything else. And so we'll see when the agreement comes out.

Again, sources say that this could be announced as soon as today. When that comes out, if where we land in terms of the amount, the number of trucks of aid that would go into Gaza, you know, there have been weeks and weeks of negotiations that so far have not been fruitful. It has been incredibly tenuous, incredibly complicated with multiple parties involved.

But, again, right now the headline this morning is that sources are feeling optimistic that a deal could be announced as soon as today for the release of 50 hostages, women and children.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: M.J., I know there is a chance that some of the Americans may be among those 50. It is again not clear. We don't have a list of who these people will be. There's a lot of hope, though, that the youngest known American hostage, three-year-old Abigail Edan, whose parents were killed, may be among those released. Is there any further guidance on whether that could happen this morning?

LEE: That is the hope and that is the expectation. But, really, that is all we can say right now. And that really does goes to show and is a reminder of how little information we know about the hostages that are in Gaza right now. We don't have a firm number. We don't know anything about really their condition or their whereabouts.

We have, of course, reported in the weeks prior that this idea that Hamas itself may not know exactly where all the hostages are and that the hostages could be in different places throughout Gaza.

You know, U.S. officials have said don't imagine there being some sort of room or some house, one structure, where all of the hostages are being kept in one place. Really, this is a situation where the hostages were taken in and they really could be spread out all throughout Gaza.

And, you know, this is one of the reasons that the negotiations have been so incredibly difficult. And it's also one of the reasons why right now we are talking about the idea of Hamas using, again, the sustained multiple days pause in fighting, using that time to try to gather up additional hostages. HARLOW: M.J., thank you for all of that reporting. Stay with us.

Oren, to you in Tel Aviv, the timing of all this, this also comes at the apex of pressure on Netanyahu and his government by Israelis to get their loved ones out. We saw that incredibly tense meeting at the Knesset yesterday, basically saying you're not doing enough to focus on bringing them home.

[07:05:04]

That is this moment and this is incredibly welcome news in that moment.

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. Although I will say the families have heard before that a deal is imminent, even if it sounds more serious and more likely to happen now. The word imminent is something they effectively hate here and don't want to hear it anymore. They want to hear that a deal is done and that their family members are coming home today.

And we could feel the frustration and the anger as we spoke with them when they finally met with the war cabinet at the defense ministry late last night. That meeting lasted several hours. We spoke with one of the family members who came out early because he was so frustrated that there was no new information. Although he was happy to finally meet the war cabinet, he felt that there was no new information provided from what they already knew. So, at that point he simply left early.

Crucially, we asked him, have you been given any updated information on the time line for the release of any hostages? And he said, no, there was no such information provided, not by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and not by other members of the war cabinet.

Now, the government here has been incredibly quiet and secretive about how that's going, but that would be more frustration and more anger for the families of the hostages to find out that less than 24 hours after they met with the prime minister and other members of the government that have to approve something like this, there is a hostage deal that they simply weren't told about.

Another key question, of course, is who is released? Is it Israel that decides who comes out? Is it Hamas? Are full families released together? Or does Hamas not have the families held together and not know where different members of them are? So, that will be another key question here that the families will want to hear.

From Israel's perspective, one of the concerns with even a short-term pause in the fighting was that Israel and particularly the government still see it as their mission to destroy Hamas, and yet restarting a campaign, certainly a campaign of this scale we have seen happening in Gaza, restarting that after a pause in fighting as international criticism mounts as the death toll there surpasses 12,000. That in and of itself could be incredibly difficult, especially if there is a longer pause in fighting for the release of not only the first 50 but more to come in more batches. It becomes incredibly difficult for Israel to continue its operation in Gaza.

And that is one of the war cabinet's concerns because they still see very much -- part of their goal as to destroy Hamas.

In fact, I'll make this last point. When we spoke with family members who came out of the meeting, they wanted to hear unequivocally that the number one priority was the release of the hostages. There was quite a bit of anger when they didn't hear that. The war cabinet told them rescuing the hostages and bringing them out is as important as defeating Hamas, not at all what they want to hear.

HILL: All of those points, they are important. Natasha, I want to bring you in on this. As Oren pointed out, the families have said, look, we have been told this is imminent before. We almost don't want to hear that unless we know it's actually happening. Until it happens, there are still a lot of unknowns. U.S. officials seemed optimistic yesterday when they were asked, but cautious.

Looking at this, there are a number of security concerns, which Oren just laid out. What are you hearing from your sources this morning in terms of where this may stand and what it could actually look like, to Oren's point?

BERTRAND: Yes. Look, I mean, I think there are just so many parties involved in this, including parties that are obviously negotiating through intermediaries. The U.S. does not communicate directly with Hamas. They're communicating with them about this entire negotiation through Qatar and Egypt, that it makes it very unpredictable.

And anything on the ground could also significantly shift the dynamics in this hostage release because, of course, we have seen Hamas pull back from these negotiations in recent days in response to certain Israeli actions on the ground, in particular, that Israeli raid on Al- Shifa hospital. And so the dynamics on the ground could really impact whether or not Hamas agrees to follow through with this hostage release.

And I think that the cautious optimism we are seeing, of course, has to do with the fact that they believe that there has been consistent and sustained diplomacy going on for the last couple of days that are leading to the sense that these dozens and dozens of hostages could be released soon.

But, of course, it is so touch-and-go, the fact that Hamas has pulled back, has disappeared in recent days, only to re-emerge, it makes this very, very, you know, untenable to say that this is going to be a done deal until actually a deal is reached, and until you see these hostages actually exiting Gaza.

And so I think one of the big questions now is this question about the drone surveillance flights over Gaza. You know, how sustainable actually is that for the Israelis to pause those flights, especially because the U.S. is also helping with those drone flights over Gaza and has been so key in monitoring Hamas, in monitoring or trying to monitor where the hostages actually are. And so there are just so many moving parts to this that it is unclear at this point what exactly it's going to look like.

HILL: Natasha, Oren, M.J., thank you all. We're going to continue to follow this just ahead.

[07:10:01]

HARLOW: Very closely. We'll stay on the breaking news. Again, if you're just joining us, sources telling us a hostage deal announcement could come as soon as today for potentially 50 hostages being held by Hamas.

Next, we're going to be joined by someone who has been deeply involved before in hostage negotiations with Hamas.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: More on our breaking news this morning, sources telling CNN a hostage deal between Israel and Hamas could be announced as soon as today.

With us now is Gershon Baskin, the Middle East director of International Communities Organization, of course he was central in the negotiations with Hamas to get an Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, released in 2007. Gershon, thank you for joining us.

If you haven't seen the CNN reporting yet or for viewers just joining us, here are the top lines that our colleagues have gotten. It would be, if it happens, 50 prisoners held by Hamas in exchange for three Palestinian prisoners for every civilian hostage released, so, essentially, three for one. It would also mean a six-hour pause in Israel with those drone flights over Northern Gaza.

[07:15:00]

And it would be a cessation in fighting for four to five days. What is your takeaway from this? Do you think this one is for real?

GERSHON BASKIN, MIDDLE EAST DIRECTOR, INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITIES ORG.: Two things to caution us. There's no deal until there's a deal. Once there's a deal it's brought before the Israeli government to vote on and even then there's no deal until it's implemented. There are so many stages along the way where it could go south. We have to be very careful.

The other thing I smile about is that in the first week of the war, I presented to the Israeli side and Hamas a deal to release all the women and children, elderly and sick hostages in exchange for all the women prisoners and all the prisoners in Israel under the age of 18. There are 43 women and 190 prisoners under the age of 18. So, it's more or less the same deal that was proposed in the first week of the war.

I don't believe this is the whole deal. It's very unlikely that Hamas is not also demanding prisoners to be release who had murdered Israelis, who had been serving a long period of time. Everything else makes sense. A ceasefire has to be part of it. HILL: So, you think the more to it could be more in terms of the specifics who Hamas wants released in exchange?

BASKIN: I think so. I would be very surprised, pleasantly surprised, if they're just demanding the women and the minor prisoners in Israel and not anyone else. The issue with a ceasefire is complex. Israel needs to redeploy its forces and pull back. I don't believe that drones will stop floating over Gaza Strip. Israel is still collecting intelligence information. And there's no reason for Israel to believe that Hamas would implement a ceasefire when it does. So, it needs to be on guard and ready for any violation of the ceasefire which could also block the deal as well anywhere down the road.

HARLOW: Gershon, you said something really critical in that a deal needs to be signed off on by the entire Israeli parliament. My question to you is would the farthest --

BASKIN: No, the government.

HARLOW: The government there, sorry. Would the farthest right members, though, agree to a deal where 150 essentially Palestinians are released?

BASKIN: No, they won't agree to it. But Netanyahu needs a majority of the government. He doesn't need full consensus. He needs a large majority in order to make it legitimate in the eyes of the public and he will get that. We have to remember that he is very weak now, the weakest he's ever been, but, nonetheless, I think that he will pull off a majority in the government.

There will be a long debate. It won't be a half an hour meeting and a vote. It will be a long debate in the government.

HILL: In terms of that debate, one of the things we heard from our Oren Liebermann who spoke with those families after they met with them yesterday was that they were asking very specifically for the hostages to be priority number one. That is not the answer that they got, what they wanted.

Moving forward, based on everything you see, as you noted it's not a deal until it's a deal. Yesterday you told us you were hopeful based on what we heard 24 hours ago. Has that level of hope changed at all in this moment?

BASKIN: I wake up every morning trying to be hopeful. I'm also realistic. But the more talk there is about a deal seems that it's more real, although I have great suspicion about all the talk around the deal, because, usually, what happens in these situations is that people who know don't talk and people who don't know are the ones who are talking, and all the talk is not very helpful.

But we've gotten deep into this war and Israel is about to launch its major campaign into the southern part of the Gaza Strip, where the hostages are located and the leadership of Hamas is located. And we're likely to see that kind of step on the part of Israel as being detrimental to other negotiations. HARLOW: Gershon Baskin, thank you so much for joining us with all of your expertise. Come back if you learn more, obviously, on all of this.

And we do want to bring in now the great aunt of three-year-oldAbigail Edan. Liz Hirsh is with us. You probably recognize her because she was on CNN right at this table with us just a couple days ago. Abigail is the youngest known American hostage and there is hope, our reporting is, that she would be among those released today if this deal actually come comes to fruition.

I cannot imagine, Liz, what you're feeling this morning. What would you like to say.

LIZ HIRSH NAFTALI, GREAT AUNT OF THREE-YEAR-OLD HOSTAGE ABIGAIL EDAN: Well, I'm cautious optimist because we've heard this before. And although there's more excitement and more news pressing right now, we can't get our hopes up in a way that just believes that it's going to happen right in the next couple of hours.

But, you know, when I think about that on Friday is Abigail's 4th birthday and that she should be home with her family and with her sister and brother and she isn't right now, it's just -- it's like you get your emotions -- you have to keep them in check because, if not, and you think about nine-month-old children, little girls, little boys, mothers, and you just hope that there's somebody holding these little children.

[07:20:06]

And so, when people ask that my -- I'm not a politician, I'm not a diplomat. I will believe it when I see them walk out, to be driven out and they are free. Because until then, we just have to keep everything in check because it's just too much of an emotional roller coaster. And, you know, it's 45 days. And as you see, I have here this pin, this sticker, which is -- these people have been in the dark for 45 days.

Abigail is a beautiful child who wants to run around and play soccer with her older brother and sister and she hasn't been able to run around in 45 days. I don't know where she is. We don't know. We just hope that she's with Hagar Brodutch, who she was taken out with her three children, and that she's giving her love, and that on Friday she will be with her family back in Israel without her parents, but with her sister and her brother and her aunts and her uncles and her grandparents.

So, for me, it's really emotional because I have no idea if this is real, but my heart believes it has to be. I have faith and I just pray that this is going to be the real peace. Again, until we see them come out and until Abigail is in the arms of her family, I just can't go down to that point where I'm relieved and I believe it's going to happen fully.

HILL: I think so many people watching can understand that and can understand exactly where you are and where you need to keep yourself in this moment.

You've talked about how you felt like you've been in the dark. There's been very little communication. There's very little that you know. Has anybody reached out to you in the wake of this reporting this morning in terms of -- in an official capacity?

NAFTALI: No. And the -- what I understand is that if there really is a deal and it does get to that place, that the hostage families, American hostage families will hear from the State Department prior, but that hasn't happened. Again, this is just more reporting and more, you know -- everybody says it's closer. The president said it's closer. Everybody says it's closer. The Qatari people say it's closer. But, again, I really, truly believe until we see the hostages and these little children and their mothers, whoever is in that first round come out, we can't put any -- we can't fully embrace that there is this deal.

HILL: Well, we hope that there's word for you and for so many others soon. Liz Hirsh Naftali, we really appreciate you joining us this morning. We will, of course, continue to check in with you as you hold out hope and wait for that good news.

NAFTALI: Thanks.

HILL: Lawmakers this morning growing more concerned about the future of aid to both Israel and Ukraine. We'll take a look at what's holding back progress and what Democrats and Republicans are now saying. That's just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:25:00]

HARLOW: Back to our breaking news this morning, sources just telling CNN a hostage deal announcement between Israel and Hamas could come as soon as today. It is unclear if that announcement happens when the hostages would be released. But our reporting is that it would call for the release of 50 women and children being held by Hamas in exchange for a four to five-day pause in fighting.

This all comes as the White House is reacting to recent polling that shows President Biden losing support other his handling of the Israel- Hamas War. Listen to this from White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: What I'll be very clear about is we're not going to govern by polls here. We're going to -- or poll numbers.

We're not going to change the minds of Americans. I get that. Americans are going to feel how they feel.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HILL: In terms of those feelings, the polls show a broad lack of support among several groups. But it's especially pronounced, as you can see here, among young voters. This NBC News poll shows 70 percent of voters ages 13 to 34 disapprove of Biden's handling of the war.

Joining us now is CNN Chief National Correspondent John king.

So, the White House being very careful in language for obvious reasons, they respect the polls there. Americans are going to feel how they're going to feel. It's not going to sway their approach. I keep wondering, though, what are those real conversations privately? This makes sense as a public statement, but that has to be concerning.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Look, I covered the White House for ten years. That is both the right answer and the boilerplate answer. No president, Democrat, Republican, can say we're watching the polls, especially on such a sensitive, delicate foreign policy issue like this. The president has to say I'm doing what I think is right, agree or disagree.

The timing, we're bumping up, we're in November, we're about to hit Thanksgiving, next year is the election year. There's broad disaffection with this policy, with -- it's mostly about Israel but they don't think the president -- a lot of Democrats, progressives, especially the young viewers, young voters just don't think the president is being tough enough on Israel. They think he's giving them a green light for this.

You just talked about these sensitive hostage negotiations. The president has to do his job. The calendar says, though, this is a political down for him.

HARLOW: What about in a state like Michigan? I mean, Rashida Tlaib, one of the members of Congress from Michigan, has been the most outspoken, saying -- going as far as to say voters, Democrats, will not forget, Mr. President, if you don't call for a ceasefire. You went there. And you talked to especially young voters, college students.

KING: Young voters. And I was in Tlaib's district for part of the trip, two college campuses, one in Detroit, one up in Ann Arbor, then in her district, which overlaps Dearborn. There are more than 200,000 Arab-Americans in Michigan, probably 300,000 Middle Eastern-descent. They voted overwhelmingly for President Biden.

If you pick up the Arab-American news right now, the newspaper on the front page are Arab-Americans who voted Biden holding placards saying, abandon Biden. So, among Arab-American voters, critical in Michigan, and look at this on college campuses, the president at the moment is in trouble.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice over): Midterms are done, finals just ahead. There is a rhythm to life on campus. And this fall, a raw divide.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am an Israeli-Jewish American. KING: Maya Siegmann is a sophomore at Wayne State in Michigan, studying social work, chatting with friends here at the Jewish campus organization, Hillel.

Hillell, there's a police officer down the hall. That's not normal.

MAYA SIEGMANN, WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY STUDENT: It is now.

[07:30:00]

KING: Siegmann traveled to Washington last week to join thousands in support of Israel. Now, back on a campus divided.

SIEGMANN: The division is very clear.