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CNN This Morning
Young Michigan Voters On Biden's Handling Of War in Gaza; Court Strikes Down Voting Rights Act Enforcement Tool; New Book Explores Trump's Grip On The Republican Party. Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired November 21, 2023 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[07:30:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Siegmann traveled to Washington last week to join thousands in support of Israel, now back on a campus divided.
MAYA SIEGMANN, WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY STUDENT: The division is very clear. The tension on campus is very high.
KING (voice-over): Wayne State spans 200 acres in downtown Detroit. Ibrahim Ghazal among the 24,000 students.
IBRAHIM GHAZAL, WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY STUDENT: I'm Muslim, I'm American, I'm Palestinian.
KING (voice-over): Ghazal calls antisemitism horrible and disgusting.
KING (on camera): Do you feel the flip side of it? Are there more --
GHAZAL: In terms is Islamophobia?
KING (on camera): Yeah, or Islamophobia -- are people just saying hurtful things?
GHAZAL: Of course. I think it's -- I think it's disgusting that standing up for children dying and women dying, and civilian infrastructure being destroyed is being compared to supporting Hamas. I mean, holding up a Palestinian flag does not support Hamas. Hamas has their own flag. Nobody is carrying their flag.
KING (voice-over): This coffee shop is in Dearborn where about half of the residents are of Arab ancestry. Ghazal and his friends say a president they supported in 2020 is not greenlighting an Israeli response they see as indiscriminate.
GHAZAL: And I don't think our country should fund that type of reaction.
KING (on camera): Do you feel this way? (Holding up The Arab American front page: "Abandon Biden.")
GHAZAL: To an extent, yes. I feel as though President Biden doesn't value my life as a Muslim-American as much as he values other lives.
KING (voice-over): Young voters were a giant part of the Biden 2020 coalition and this urban campus tilts deep blue.
KING (on camera): If it's Biden-Trump next November, you would --
SUMMER MATKIN, WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY STUDENT: I'd go Biden.
KING (voice-over): Summer Matkin is just 18, a theater major, an Esports enthusiast, and an LGBTQ voter who wishes President Biden would yield to someone younger.
MATKIN: I think that weird generational gap is something that is very, very hard for young people. So when there's certain things that we want to be heard as young people -- you know, with not only the conflict out with Israeli and Palestine people, but we also have, like, student loan forgiveness and all of these different financial problems that aren't being handled when they are very much capable of being handled.
KING (voice-over): Matkin isn't ruling out voting third party but --
MATKIN: It feels like a weird kind of throwaway vote.
KING (voice-over): Joseph Fisher used to think that way but right now, he favors a socialist party. In 2020, Fisher was just 17 but he helped the ACLU register voters back home in Georgia.
KING (on camera): So you helped Joe Biden get elected?
JOSEPH FISHER, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN STUDENT: I did, yes.
KING (on camera): What about 2024?
FISHER: I will not vote for Joe Biden. Not this time.
KING (voice-over): This is Ann Arbor, the University of Michigan. Students writing the names of Palestinians killed in Gaza.
FISHER: One of our demands that we're pressuring admin for right now is complete divestment from the "save Israel."
KING (on camera): You say genocide?
FISHER: Yes, I do say.
KING (on camera): The prime minister of Israel or the President of the United States would say response to terrorism.
FISHER: Absolutely. It's absolutely essential that we call it for what it is -- a genocide. And also, say that it doesn't start on October 7. It started in 1948 with the creation of the state of Israel.
KING (voice-over): Some Jewish students say talk like that, beliefs like that are stoking an alarming rise in antisemitism.
SIEGMANN: I wish it wasn't like this but this is what we live right now.
KING (voice-over): Fifty thousand students here in Ann Arbor and interest in the College Democrats is up.
JADE GRAY, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN STUDENT: We've had 50, 40, 30 consistently for meetings.
ANUSHKA JALISATGI, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN STUDENT: And in the past, it has been closer to maybe 10, 15, 20.
KING (voice-over): Seniors and co-presidents of the College Democrats, Anushka Jalisatgi and Jade Gray, helped generate a big turnout here in 2020 and again in 2022. They have weekly meetings now to plan 2024.
KING (on camera): Should we have somebody younger? Does that come up much?
GRAY: Absolutely, it comes up. And I think that that's a -- it's a real point to make.
JALISTAGI: Yeah.
GRAY: It's a real conversation to be had.
KING (voice-over): The immediate challenge though is seeing students who agree on things like abortion rights and defending democracy at odds over the Israel-Hamas crisis and President Biden's response.
GRAY: You know, Mr. President, I have seen you take key humanitarian steps but I think the next step is a ceasefire. And I think that would go a long way with voters.
KING (on camera): We don't know what's going to happen beyond next week or next month, but at the -- if the election were tomorrow, do you think that it is more likely some of your members would sit out or look for another option -- third party -- because they're mad at the president about this?
JALISATGI: Some of them, yes. They have shared with us that maybe this is making me reconsider.
KING (on camera): Is it fair to say you're glad the election is not tomorrow?
JALISATGI: Yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: You see that nervous laugh there -- glad the election --
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah.
KING: -- is not tomorrow.
They have weekly meetings on the University of Michigan campus. They are trying to talk to these young voters about, OK, you're worried about the president's age. Don't focus on his age. Focus on who makes Supreme Court nominations. What about the rest of this administration? They're trying to get them to do big picture.
It's complicated now because of the tensions over this on campus. You feel it. You just spend a couple of hours wandering campus and you see events, small protests, large protests. About 40 kids got arrested Friday night. You just feel it.
And so the election is 11 months away but this is a problem.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: And to your point, many of them wouldn't vote for Trump but they wouldn't vote for Biden. They would sit out and that would be a big problem in the state of Michigan.
What about the feeling you got, John, on these campuses about the impact of social media on how these individuals are thinking about this and talking about it?
[07:35:06]
KING: Right, there's no question. If you listen -- some of the students are very nuanced about this. Maya Siegmann at the top of the piece -- she said --
HARLOW: Yeah.
KING: -- her family protested Netanyahu's corruption, right? She doesn't like Netanyahu's handling of the Palestinian issue writ large. She says at the moment, she has to stand with Israel.
Ibrahim Ghazal there -- antisemitism, he says, is horrendous, right? And he took grief for that on social media after the piece first aired last night.
But some of the younger students -- the settler colony of Israel. This is the progressive anti-Israel, often antisemitic stuff that gets put on social media. There's no question it's affecting younger people, without a doubt.
HILL: It's so important. Such an important look, John. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
KING: Thank you.
HARLOW: Thank you.
House Speaker Mike Johnson traveling to Mar-a-Lago to meet with Donald Trump last night. What do we know about that meeting? That's ahead.
HILL: Plus, a federal appeals court strikes down a key tool that has been used for decades to enforce the Voting Rights Act. How this could now affect millions of voters, next.
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[07:40:11] HARLOW: Welcome back.
A federal appeals court has moved to significantly weaken the Voting Rights Act in a case that is likely now headed to the Supreme Court. The appeals court ruled that only the Justice Department can sue under section two of the law, which bans voting practices, like drawing maps, that discriminate on the basis of race. That means voters could file -- could not file those lawsuits and neither could -- and this is what really matters -- big groups like the ACLU or the NAACP.
Joan Biskupic joins us now with all of this. This is really significant.
JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SENIOR SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Yeah.
HARLOW: Even though the Supreme Court had upheld section two just a matter of months ago, this appellate court looked at some language from Justice Gorsuch and Clarence Thomas and said not so fast.
What does this mean for Americans?
BISKUPIC: That's right, Poppy. Good morning.
It's a whole new confrontation over the Voting Rights Act and who can vindicate the rights of Blacks, Hispanics, and other racial minorities who might be disadvantaged in the drawing of state maps not able to pick the candidates of their choice and see them elected in places where they have sizable populations.
And you're exactly right. This lower court took its lead from Clarence Thomas and Neil Gorsuch, two of the justices who have -- justices who have said it should be a very open question and the court should revisit the issue of whether this private right of action under what's known as section two of the Voting Rights Act. That section prohibits any kind of discrimination based on race in voting.
And only those two justices have been pushing it. But this court took -- this appellate court yesterday, Poppy, took a very narrow textualist reading that actually might appeal to a couple of other justices. And that's the issue when it comes --
HARLOW: Yeah.
BISKUPIC: -- up to the Supreme Court if someone like Amy Coney Barrett or Sam Alito might go that way. I do think Chief Justice John Roberts might think this is such a radical reading of the Voting Rights Act that he would not be with them.
But it's a very open question now -- a showdown, certainly, in upcoming months.
HARLOW: This is the Eighth Circuit -- the appeals court that looked at this and there was - it was 2-1. So the dissenting judge in this really brought up what is foundational to our American legal system and that is where there is a legal right there is a remedy.
How does that factor? And as we look, this is a presidential election year and how this could change heading into '24.
BISKUPIC: You know, Poppy, you were quoting there the chief judge of the Eighth Circuit -- a man by the name of Lavenski Smith, who was actually appointed by George W. Bush. No liberal radical -- him. But he pointed up the fact that this is -- Congress would not have enacted a right that didn't have a remedy.
And he also said that this is such an important right to self- government would not be left just to the Justice Department. It would have been allowed by the NAACP and ACLU.
He also mentioned an important statistic that in the last 40 years, some 182 successful claims under this provision of the Voting Rights Act have been brought and only 15 of those were brought solely on the part of the attorney general.
So it just points to the importance of having groups like ACLU and the NAACP step in to help vindicate minority rights.
HARLOW: Yeah.
Joan, thank you for the really important reporting this morning. We appreciate it.
BISKUPIC: Thank you.
HARLOW: Erica.
HILL: Donald Trump, of course, promised his supporters in 2016 that America was going to win so much that people would get tired of winning. Maybe you remember that. So, are they tired of winning? Jonathan Karl joins us with the answer. He has a new book about Trump fittingly called "Tired of Winning."
HARLOW: And a hostage deal between Israel and Hamas could be announced -- could -- as early as today. That is according to sources who tell CNN the deal could include a pause in fighting for four to five days. More of the breaking news straight ahead.
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[07:48:16]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're winning. We won in 2016. Make sure that I -- we win by a lot.
We're winning states that nobody's even thought about.
We're winning big, big, big. Please, it's too much winning. We have to win more. We're going to win more. We're going to win so much. We're going to with every single facet. We're going to win so much you may even get tired of winning.
(END VIDEO CLIP) HARLOW: Then-candidate Donald Trump back in 2016 told supporters they
were going to win so much -- well, you just heard it -- they'd get tired of it.
The former president's chances of winning another term are very real as a number of polls now show him either leading or tied with President Biden in a hypothetical head-to-head general election matchup.
Our next guest just released a new book and there is the headline -- "Tired of Winning: Donald Trump and the End of the Grand Old Party." It explores the end and the aftermath of Trump's presidency. It also includes new revelations about Trump's mindset after the January 6 insurrection.
In this audio given to CNN, Trump claims that he wanted to go to the Capitol during the riot and he says he would have been, quote, "very well received." Listen.
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JONATHAN KARL, ABC NEWS CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, AUTHOR, "TIRED OF WINNING: DONALD TRUMP AND THE END OF THE GRAND OLD PARTY": You told them you were going to go up to the Capitol Were you just --
TRUMP: I was -- no, I was going to and the Secret Service said you can't. And then by the time -- I would have. And then when I got back I saw -- I wanted to go back. I was thinking about going back during the problem to stop the problem -- doing it myself. Secret Service didn't like that idea too much.
KARL: So, what --
TRUMP: And I could have done that. And you know what? I would have been very well received. Don't forget, the people that went to Washington that day -- in my opinion, they went because they thought the election was rigged. That's why they went.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[07:50:01]
HARLOW: Well, the journalist who conducted that interview and the author of the new book is ABC News chief White House correspondent Jonathan Karl. Jonathan, it's great to have you. Chief Washington correspondent -- I'm just going to call you chief of -- chief of all of it -- out with another great book after "Betrayal."
And this audio is so crucial to one of the sort of central arguments you make in the case in the book -- the case that ultimately, people have begun to forget how desperately and madly Donald Trump wanted to hang onto power. You call this his final battle.
KARL: Yeah. I think that there are two things. People -- memories have faded a bit of what it was like there at the end of the Trump presidency and also, people have paid very little attention since he left to where his mindset is. There's been endless coverage of his legal problems and of the criminal cases but what is in his mind right now? That was my exploration.
I spent a great deal of time exploring new information that came out -- some pretty shocking new information about the final weeks of his presidency. But I also spent time talking to those around him. What it was like when he went to Mar-a-Lago -- where he is moving.
And that piece of tape was an interview that I did in July of 2021. And what is significant to me there is he is saying that the people that were assaulting the Capitol -- you know, he went up during the problem -- that the people that were assaulting the Capitol would have received him well.
HARLOW: Um-hum.
KARL: You know, I think it says a lot about how he viewed that day. It's -- I think it's pretty damning evidence.
HILL: And the fact that he also says they would have received him well because they thought, quote, "the election was rigged." We know where a lot of that thinking was coming from and that idea.
You know, it's interesting, too, in terms of where he is now, as you were getting at. This mindset of winning and that he needs to win at all costs -- and this is about winning. Some of his comments at CPAC back in March were really telling. I want to play that moment.
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TRUMP: In 2016, I declared I am your voice. Today, I add I am your warrior. I am your justice. And for those who have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution. I am your retribution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: I am your retribution, playing into this idea that we have heard -- and I think you can really drill down on this. This is a revenge tour in many ways.
KARL: Absolutely. He is telling people that I will go after the people who have wronged you by wronging me. It's a -- it's a fascinating sleight of hand. He tells people that the real target is them. That the so-called deep state -- that the people in our government, in our criminal justice system that are going after him in all these cases are really targeting his supporters.
Now, obviously, his supporters haven't done things like pilfered classified documents and taken them to Mar-a-Lago. They haven't paid hush money to a porn star in the midst of a presidential campaign. They haven't used the power of the presidency to try to overturn a presidential election. But it is the central message of his campaign.
Come retribution is the way it's described by Steve Bannon, who used that term with me -- a term that he acknowledged he borrows from the Confederate plot to assassinate Abraham Lincoln. It's about retribution.
HARLOW: You -- here's the book again. You wrote it for two reasons, Jon. What are they?
KARL: Well, I wrote it because I want people to truly understand what happened the last time Donald Trump was in the White House -- truly understand in a way that we did not fully appreciate at the time and the way memories have faded. But I also want people to understand where his head is at now.
There is -- I think that the second Trump term, if there is one, will be different than the first. I think that the starting point, in many ways, will be where we were on January 6, but it will be one that will be unrestrained and it will be one where Donald Trump will be determined to truly use the full powers of the presidency to serve his own purposes.
HILL: Josh Dawsey has a piece in The Washington Post recently talking about -- he talked to more than a dozen former Trump advisers, right, and they're trying to decide if there's anything that they can do because they are concerned
KARL: Yeah.
HILL: -- about what a second Trump administration would look like -- would look like.
We've had this conversation so many times about is there anything that somebody could say. Is there anything that they could point to -- some of the people who worked closest to him who have raised concerns. None of that seems to get through.
Were you surprised at all to see that there were these dozen or so officials who were thinking that they could potentially come up with something?
KARL: I mean, it doesn't surprise me at all that they're talking about what to do because what I have found over and over again is that the most searing criticism of Donald Trump and the most dire warnings about what it would mean if he were to come back into power come from the people that worked closest to him.
[07:55:00]
Now, some of those people have come out publicly over the years --
HILL: Um-hum.
KARL: -- and they have, for the large part, seen their careers destroyed.
Now, you have somebody like Liz Cheney, who I believe was on the path to be a Speaker of the House, lose her seat in Wyoming, not even able to win a Republican primary. Her fight has not ended. There's no question that she will continue to fight, but others have just left politics. Whether or not any of it can have an impact, I believe it can. I think
that what you're seeing in the polls is a reflection of Donald -- of discontent with Joe Biden and very little understanding and discussion of what Trump would actually do --
HILL: Um-hum.
KARL: -- if he came back to the White House. That is starting to change now. People are starting to focus on that as they're getting ready to vote.
HILL: I mean, he's said it multiple times. He's been very clear about what those --
KARL: Yes.
HILL: -- plans are.
HARLOW: Jonathan Karl --
KARL: Yeah, absolutely.
HARLOW: Go ahead.
KARL: Absolutely. I mean, this is -- this is not a secret. It is -- it is about retribution. It is about revenge. It is about proving that he never really lost when he did. So this is -- he's been abundantly clear about all of this.
HARLOW: Not only chief Washington correspondent, New York Times best- selling author of soon-to-be this book. Also, "Betrayal" and "Front Row at the Trump Show." Again, the book is "Tired of Winning."
Jonathan Karl, congratulations, and thanks so much for joining us this morning.
KARL: Great -- thank you. Great to be back on CNN.
HARLOW: Millions of Americans gearing up for a busy Thanksgiving holiday week. There is some severe weather. Is it going to disrupt your travel plans? What you need to know -- that's next.
HILL: Plus, sources telling CNN a hostage deal announced between Israel and Hamas could come as soon as today. We continue with our breaking news coverage next.
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