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Mark Esper is Interviewed about Attacks on U.S. Forces; Severe Weather Threatens Travel; Israel Government to Meet on Deal; Biden's Age a Concern for Voters. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired November 21, 2023 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

MARK ESPER, FORMER TRUMP DEFENSE SECRETARY: Look, we've had over 60 attacks in the last few weeks, over 150 over the last three years under the Biden administration. And in the last few weeks alone, Americans, over 60, have been injured, shrapnel wounds, TBI, and it really affects our ability to deter this. We - I've been arguing now, we are not responding frequently or forcefully enough to these attacks.

But, look, the political signaling coming out of Washington is we're not serious - or at least as serious as we should be with regard to all of these issues.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: We also want to get your take on - and Poppy mentioned this, especially when we came back from break, what we're hearing could be a deal, could be imminent, could perhaps be announced as soon as today for the release of as many as 50 hostages initially, Israeli hostages, in exchange for as many as 150 Palestinian prisoners. There would be a four to five day pause here. What do you make of the details that have come out of this deal and are you hopeful that it is, in fact, something we could see?

ESPER: I think so. I think, look, first of all, at a humanitarian level it's great. These people should have never been held hostage in the first place. And let's be one - let's be clear about one thing, this is not a humanitarian gesture by Hamas. My view is going all the way back to October 7th, this is what they planned, to take innocent Israelis in order to swap them for Palestinians, Hamas operatives who have been held legitimately by the government of Israel. So, now we're looking at a three to one swap going on.

So, I think, look, the pressure has built so much domestically within Israel that Bibi Netanyahu has to get a release of these hostages. I think from a military perspective, it's not good because a four to five-day postponement or pause in the actions will allow Hamas to rearm, to refit, to reposition troops. That's why they are pushing so hard that there not be any surveillance over northern Gaza during this period.

So, look, you've got to take the good with the bad. I think it would be really good to see innocent civilians released, particularly the - you know, the children and the elderly. But you've got to take this one hour at a time, one day at a time. POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Mr. Secretary, I want to ask you about "The

Washington Post" reporting that you were asked to comment on, and you did not comment to "The Washington Post." This is about a number of people who were in Trump's cabinet and surrounding him, including his chief of staff, John Kelly, who have turned against him and who are now struggling with ways to sort of puncture the lead that he maintains in the Republican primary. John Kelly, for example, saying, "what's going on in this country that a single person thinks this guy would be a good president."

You have previously said that Trump is, quote, "unprincipled and should not be in the position of public service." Will you work to publicly fight the lead that he has now or are you going to stay on the sidelines?

ESPER: I've been very clear about this matter for three years now and since my book came out. So, I - I've been on the record multiple times and I don't think he should be president. I don't think he's qualified. I think he's a threat to democracy.

So, look, I'll do whatever I can to try and make sure that doesn't happen. I think we have good Republicans in the Republican primary that can - can deliver on conservative principles and goals and objectives, but also unify the party. And when put into the White House, elected into the White House, I think can unify the country. So - and any one of those, whether it's Haley or Christie or DeSantis, will defeat Joe Biden. So, I think the Republican base should rally around any one of those candidates because I think that's the path to victory for Republicans.

HARLOW: But you saying you'll do whatever you can to make sure he's not in office again. What does that look like? Elaborate on that for us.

ESPER: Well, here I am talking to you this morning and trying to convince my fellow Republicans that Donald Trump is not right.

Look, I don't think Donald Trump can beat Joe Biden either. And other Republicans have said that. So, like I said, I want to do whatever I can to make sure that Donald Trump is not the nominee and that we get a Republican in the Oval Office in 2025.

HILL: Real quickly, Donald Trump has also promised retaliation, as we know, retribution if he is, in fact, elected. What does that look like to you and are you concerned about is, personally?

ESPER: Sure, absolutely I'm concerned about it. It's retribution, not just against political opponents, but he's going to go after the institutions of our democracy. That's a threat to the republic in my - in my mind. And certainly it's eroded our political culture that this - there's no comedy between the - between the parties and between the American people.

I think that's the greatest threat facing our country right now is political extremism from both sides. So, when you're running on an agenda about retribution, revenge, that's not uplifting. Ronald Reagan ran on an optimistic agenda, and that's what I think the Americans people should expect from leaders of both political parties.

HILL: Mark Esper, appreciate your time this morning. Mr. Secretary, thank you.

ESPER: Thank you.

HARLOW: There is another painful cost to the Israel/Hamas war. Two journalists working for a Lebanese media outlet were killed after strikes on southern Lebanon. That happened just earlier today. And the Committee to Protect Journalists says at least 50 journalists now and media workers have been killed since the war broke out after the terror attack on October 7th. Those are the names on your screen. CPJ says the mounting toll marks a grim milestone and far surpasses the 15 journalists who have been killed in Russia's ongoing war on Ukraine.

[08:35:08]

Saturday was the second deadliest day of the conflict for journalists with five killed. And according to the Committee to Protect Journalists, as of yesterday, 45 of the reporters killed were Palestinian, four were Israeli, one was Lebanese. On top of that, 11 journalists have been injured, three have been reported missing, and 18 have been arrested.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Thanksgiving less than 48 hours away, but severe weather threatening travel plans for millions of Americans.

HILL: There is a dangerous line of storms moving through the southeast. You can take a look at what happened last night. Strong winds, at least five tornados reported causing serious damage in Mississippi. More than 27 million people are under a severe storm risk today as this weather pattern pushes across the eastern U.S.

HARLOW: Will your loved ones make it in time for Thanksgiving turkey? Let's bring in Pete Muntean, Whitney Wild, both following all of this for us.

And some lines building up at Reagan National and Chicago O'Hare.

Pete, let's start with you.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: You know, we could see some ground stops here at Reagan National today the FAA warns, all the way down to Palm Beach and some major hubs, including Atlanta and Charlotte. The FAA anticipating that the number of flights today will be very big, one of the biggest before the holiday, 48,000 flights in total scheduled today, 49,000 tomorrow.

The TSA numbers have already been huge, and this holiday really got off to an early start, which is good news especially considering that this storm is coming in on the East Coast.

[08:40:02]

The TSA screened about 2.6 million people at airports nationwide on Sunday, 2.7 million people at airports nationwide on Friday. That's pushing up pretty close to the all-time TSA record of 2.9 million people.

I spoke to TSA Administrator David Pekoske. He says the interesting thing that's happening now is that this rush is getting longer and people are leaving earlier.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID PEKOSKE, TSA ADMINISTRATOR: Well, normally for us we count about ten days for the Thanksgiving travel period. This year we made it 12 for that very reason. People are stretching out their leisure travel. So, they'll leave earlier and stay a little bit longer. So, this year, 12 days. We expect about 30 million passengers to be screened in that 12-day period.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MUNTEAN: Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg says weather is the big x factor here. It is the top cause of flight cancellations. I just checked FlightAware, though. We've only seen about 18 cancellations nationwide so far today.

And we just heard this from American Airlines, 23,000 flights is the number of flights it operated between Thursday and Sunday. Given that entire period, and that huge number of flights, the airline canceled only two flights over that time.

HILL: Wow.

MUNTEAN: So things are going pretty well so far.

HILL: Two out of 23,000, that doesn't sound so bad.

So, Whitney, you know, Pete mentioned could be a ground top at Reagan a little bit later today. What are you seeing today in Chicago?

WHITNEY WILD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, right now we're seeing some crowds. It's busy but it is manageable here.

But the big problem, Poppy, we've been here for about 90 minutes, and in that time the number of cancel - excuse me, the number of delays here has doubled. So, it was 89 delays when we got here this morning. Now that number, according to FlightAware, is up to 201 delays.

Luckily, though, the cancellations are still pretty limited here. There are only four cancellations so far. But what is clear is that as the storm system moves across the country, things are going to get worse. The big issue in Chicago, always the roads. But particularly difficult here today because it is rainy, it is very cold, it's slick. We've heard about traffic problems throughout the Chicagoland area. The consensus here, though, is that people left with plenty of time

and they have been pleasantly surprised with how their morning's going. We spoke with one man who's bringing his seven children to go visit another child in Mexico. So, he's got seven children who are adults. He's got 13 grandchildren. Everybody here early. Here's what he told us about his Thanksgiving travel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS SKOKNA, TRAVELER: I was here. The three older boys were yelling and saying, we've got plenty of time. We've got plenty of time. But I was just nervous because I didn't know if I'd get to the airport. A year ago when I picked up my daughter from Mexico here, it took me two hours just to get into the terminal (INAUDIBLE). So, really backed up. So I was concerned that it was going to be really backed up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILD: So, Poppy, the consensus here, hurry up and possibly wait because these cancellations seem to be ticking up.

Back to you.

HARLOW: I was just telling Erica -

WILD: Delays, I'm sorry, Poppy, delays seem to be ticking up.

HARLOW: Delays.

WILD: Sorry, delays are ticking up.

HARLOW: I was just telling Erica, the blue line, always take the blue line to O'Hare when in Chicago, right, Whitney, then you never get stuck in any of that traffic.

Thank you very much.

Well, the breaking news we've been following all morning could be very good news. Sources tell CNN a hostage deal between Israel and Hamas could be announced as soon as today as we learn the Israeli government is going to meet tonight on all of this. Our reporting ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:47:41]

HARLOW: All right, more details on the breaking news this morning of a potential hostage deal. We are learning that Israel's war cabinet will meet in just two hours. That will happen at 11:00 a.m. Eastern Time, and then the entire security cabinet will meet the following hour in Israel, the government. That will happen at 1:00 p.m.

Oren Liebermann joins us now from Tel Aviv.

I know, Oren, caution, caution, caution. It's a potential deal until it's an actual deal. But the fact that you're having both these levels of the Israeli government meeting, positive sign?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. This is the first public acknowledgment we have seen from Israel that there is significant movement on the issue of freeing the hostages. Up until now Israeli officials, if they've said anything at all, have said very, very little. They have hinted there was progress, but nothing like this. Nothing like a public statement that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu will convene first the war cabinet, then the wider security cabinet, then the full government to vote on the issue, the exchange, the agreement in place.

And this is moving fairly quickly. So, these are each an hour part. Local time, at 6:00 p.m. it will be the war cabinet, which is Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the defense minister and then the former defense minister, as well as a few advisers in there. That's a very small group. Then it will be the wider security cabinet with more members of the government. And then it will be the full government set to vote on this.

This was what we had heard coming into this day, that it could happen fairly quickly if it gets to this point, that the whole approval process, which also requires some time for anybody who opposes this to appeal to the supreme court. But the whole approval process could take less than 24 hours. And we are seeing the beginning of that movement here with that first meeting of the war cabinet at 6:00 tonight.

I would very much expect there would be a statement from Netanyahu sometime this evening where either he outlines the framework of the deal or at least acknowledges that it is in place if - if we get to that point, as it certainly seems like we're moving in that direction here.

We have heard all sorts of rumors that there was progress in the past, but I think, at this point, with what we see, especially from the Israeli government and the announcement of these meetings and votes for later this evening, it is perhaps safe to use the word imminent when we talk about what we expect here later on today.

HARLOW: Wow. Such welcome words for those families. Oren, thank you. We'll get back to you soon.

Meantime, to U.S. politics. President Biden trying to poke fun at his own age on his birthday.

[08:50:02]

This is yesterday during the White House turkey pardon. America's oldest sitting president turned 81 yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And, by the way, I -- it's my birthday today and they can actually sign birthday to me. I just want you to know, it's difficult turning 60. Difficult. This is the 76th anniversary of this event. And I want you to know I wasn't there at the first one. I was too young to make it up. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Biden continued the self-deprecating humor on social media when this Instagram post with the caption reading, turns out on your 146th birthday, you run out of space for candles.

HARLOW: Former President Trump, who is not a young man himself at 77 years old, seemed to try to sort of seize on Biden's birthday. What did he do? He released a note from his doctor yesterday saying that he is in, quote, "excellent health." And that his "Cognitive exams were exceptional."

Joining us now on all of these headlines and more, CNN's senior political commentator Ana Navarro and former Obama administration official Sarah Feinberg.

We're lucky to get you two at the table on a holiday week. Thank you for being with us.

Sarah, let me just start with you on -- obviously the president is trying to make the most of his age, OK, but when it comes to young voters who already had an issue with his age now have a real issue with how he is handling the war between Israel and Hamas. Seventy percent of young voters disapproved of that. Seventy percent.

SARAH FEINBERG, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: Those numbers are stunning. When I - when I just saw those numbers, they're stunning. And it's - there's such a divide between the older population, or maybe even those of us at the table, and the younger population. I mean 70/30 is stunning. And I think it may be less about Biden and I sort of wonder how much it is about like whether we've been educating our young people about the Holocaust and everything that's come before and the decades, you know, of history that are really relevant here.

You know, this is a president, an American president, that's been working for weeks to get American hostages back. You know, that's normally a time where you're going to stand up and be incredibly supportive of the president. So, I worry a little bit it's about education.

But I think the age issue is certainly an issue here and it's on the table. But it's on the table for both men. And, you know, if Donald Trump thinking he's going to get through a campaign without having to account for his many gaffs and misstatements and mistakes over the last several weeks that we've seen DeSantis put out, I think, you know, he's got another thing coming.

HILL: We've known about the frustration, right, that age is such a focus for so many people. That frustration from the Biden campaign. You make a great point, Donald Trump is not that much younger than Joe Biden.

What we saw yesterday from the president on his birthday, poking fun at it, is that more the lane that perhaps the campaigning the president himself need to take, being out in front of it more? ANA NAVARRO, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, I think that's very natural for Joe Biden. The truth is, the man has a sense of humor and he is self-deprecating. And, frankly, it's something that Donald Trump doesn't have. Donald Trump is very defensive, has very thin skin and does not take jokes about his age, about his anything, very lightly.

So, I think it's the right thing for - for Joe Biden to poke fun at him. I mean, finally, you know, that cake looked like a fire hazard in the White House. I'm not sure how the alarms didn't go off. And Sarah is completely true, if Donald - completely right, if Donald Trump is the candidate, and it seems likely, the age point is largely moot. It's very different if Joe Biden were to be running against Nikki Haley or against Ron DeSantis. But the age issue vis-a-vis Donald Trump, yes, OK, so Joe Biden fell off a bike. Donald Trump has never been on a bike. They both make gaff.

You - you know, we can - I mean we can sit here for days looking at reels of gaffs made by Joe Biden and made by Donald Trump. I don't think there's been that -- the same level of focus on Trump as there has been on Biden because he's not president and he doesn't have that bully pulpit.

On the issue about the young voters and the Israel-Hamas thing, the administration needs to do a better job at tooting its own horn. He's not getting -- Joe Biden's getting no credit for the role the U.S. has played in this hostage release agreement we hope gets announced. He's getting no credit for the role he's played in getting the Rafah crossing opened so that there can be humanitarian aid.

HARLOW: Opened.

NAVARRO: He's getting no credit for every single time he condemns anti-Semitism, he also condemns anti-Islamophobia. He gets no credit for those things.

HARLOW: Sarah, you were really struck by Maureen Dowd's column over the weekend, and this is a dustup between David Axelrod, you worked with him in the Obama White House, and Biden, et cetera.

FEINBERG: Yes.

HARLOW: But David Axelrod had a big warning. And it essentially is, I hope they don't think the polls are wrong, because they're not. He also said Biden has a 50-50 shot, but not better than that, maybe a little bit worse.

FEINBERG: Yes.

HARLOW: Is this White House listening to David Axelrod?

FEINBERG: Well, I think they probably are actually listening to David Axelrod, but they're doing it quietly and they're doing it behind closed doors, and that's not the messaging that they're putting out. And I think, honestly, it's somewhat frustrating to Democrats who are incredibly supportive of the president. [08:55:02]

But, you know, when a poll comes out that causes deep concern for many, you know, I don't think the reaction should be like, stop it, you're bedwetters, you know, you're panicking, enough, go away. The reaction should be like, hmm, I think we learned a lot from this poll. Like, this tells us exactly where to go. This tells us exactly what to do. We're staffer up on these states. We're focused on this. You know, that -- that makes a lot more sense to me than saying, everybody stop talking. You can't criticize us because the elections are here.

NAVARRO: And, you know, something that I thought was very important is I heard Kamala Harry, Vice President Harris say that they had to earn their vote with the black community -

HARLOW: Yes.

NAVARRO: They had to earn their vote with the young. They understand not to make the mistake that a lot - that Hillary Clinton made in 2016 as Axe pointed out, to assume that because they're running against Trump they're going to automatically get those votes if they have to go out there and work it. And I think that they understand it.

HARLOW: Ana Navarro, Sarah Feinberg, thank you guys. Happy Thanksgiving. Have a good one.

NAVARRO: You too. Thank you.

HARLOW: Your flight's going to be on time. Early. You're going to land early.

HILL: A guarantee from Poppy Harlow.

HARLOW: We guarantee it right here.

This morning, Microsoft's CEO, Satya Nadella, is leaving the door open for Sam Altman to maybe return as CEO of OpenAI, the company that just fired him. Even though Microsoft just hired him, Nadella said that he is, quote, "open to both options," meaning that Altman could stay at Microsoft or go back to OpenAI. And this comes after about hundreds, almost 700-plus employees of their 770 employees of OpenAI signed a letter threatening to jump ship from Microsoft if the board does not reinstate Altman as CEO.

HILL: IT is not just employees upset with Altman's ouster, we should point out. A board member publicly apologized for his role in Altman's firings. Microsoft's stock, by the way, the company stock, soared yesterday to its highest ever closing price. CNN has also learned Altman was ousted from OpenAI over concerns that he wanted to move faster than the board did when it came to AI development. Certainly not the last we've heard about that.

HARLOW: No. Much more to come.

But we are all over this breaking news about a potential hostage deal. We should know more in the coming hours. Stay right with CNN for that. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)