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Dan Senor is Interviewed about the Israel-Hamas War; Peter Lerner is Interviewed about the Release of Hostages; Prison on Standby for Release of more Prisoners; Avi Mayer is Interviewed about Musk Visiting Israel. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired November 27, 2023 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:00]

DAN SENOR, FORMER FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER TO PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: The military (INAUDIBLE) against Hamas. I think that changes the dynamic.

It's - these are - there's - no country has ever faced this.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Impossible decision.

SENOR: I mean the issues - these are - you're talking about hundreds of people. You're still talking about 18 children in Gaza.

HARLOW: Yes.

SENOR: You're still talking about 43 women in Gaza, proportionate to population size. We've talked about this on the show. This would be like thousands and thousands of Americans still being locked up, over 40,000 total if you include the adults. So, I just think there are impossible decisions.

I do think Israeli society, I think is in somewhat of better place today than it was four days ago just because they are seeing some of these people come home and coming home in pretty decent shape.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: You talk about the complexity of this situation. We're not even factoring in - we were just showing pictures of Gaza City, what has transpired. It has been no secret, the scale of the military operation.

SENOR: Yes.

MATTINGLY: But the pause has given more insight into just the obliteration of Gaza City.

SENOR: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Which brings to mind there is significant international pressure on Israel. I think Israeli officials have acknowledged there's a window here within which we can operate.

SENOR: Yes. Yes. Yes. MATTINGLY: How long do you think that window is at this point?

SENOR: The question is Joe Biden. That - the question is to go to Joe Biden. Meaning, Israel believes that most of the international community is not operating in good faith, they just want this war to end. They say, yes, Israel has a right to defending itself. Defending itself means wiping out Hamas, wiping out this genocidal actor that posed an existential threat to Israel on October 7th.

MATTINGLY: Even if it means wiping out Gaza City?

SENOR: Well, there are - there is - they - there are - there's tremendous collateral damage in warfare, as we saw, as the U.S. saw firsthand, I saw firsthand when we - when the U.S. went into - take on ISIS in Mosul and Raqqa, as the U.S. and the allies saw when it fought Nazi Germany, when it fought imperial Japan. These are - these are governments, by the way, and threats that Joe Biden has compared Hamas to. So, tragically, this happens. Could the international community put pressure on Hamas to say, stop co-locating in civilian areas? I mean the -- Israel can't choose where Hamas locates itself. Israel has said it's going to wipe out Hamas. It can't choose to -- choose where Hamas locates itself. Only Hamas can choose that. Can there be pressure put on Hamas? I think it's - I think it's unlikely. Most of the international community is not operating in good faith, they just want the war to stop. They just want it to end full stop no matter what threat is still posed to Israel. I think President Biden is in a different place. As you were pointing out earlier, even when he makes these statements about Israel needs to think about the damage to these communities, he caveats about Hamas --

HARLOW: He follows it up with statements like that.

SENOR: Right, Hamas has to be wiped out. So, I think President Biden and the U.S./Israel relationship is what is holding the line right now and giving Israel the cover it believes it needs to do what it needs to do. If the U.S. government gets wobbly, I think the Israeli government is -- then gets under a lot of pressure. Right now, it's not.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it seems to be the huge question.

Dan Senor, thank you, as always.

SENOR: Thank you.

HARLOW: So, we're just hours away from this expected release of the fourth group of hostages. Why the Israel Defense Forces say Hamas violated part of the temporary truce agreement. That's ahead.

HARLOW: And, so far, 58 hostages have been released. Among them, 21- year-old Maya Regev. Maya was taken hostage after Hamas gunmen stormed the Nova music festival on October 7th. She's believed to be the first hostage from the festival to be freed.

HARLOW: Maya reunited with her parents Saturday at the hospital. You see them there. She was treated for what is said to be an injury she suffered when she was kidnapped. Israel's Ministry of Health said over the weekend that Maya is in stable condition and that her injury, thank goodness, is not life-threatening.

Back -

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:37:08]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EYLON LEVY, ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN: When Hamas stops releasing hostages under the existing framework, Israel will return to realizing our three goals with full force, eliminating Hamas, ensuring that Gaza never again poses a threat to the people of Israeli and, of course, releasing all of our hostages.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That was just moments ago from an Israeli government spokesman, Eylon Levy.

Right now we are in the final 24 hours of the four-day military pause between Israel and Hamas, and everyone is waiting for that fourth set of released hostages.

MATTINGLY: And this morning there is some hope that the truce could be extended. Hamas is pushing for a clause in the original arrangement that would see extra days of pauses in exchange for the freeing of groups of 10 hostages. The Israeli war cabinet has discussed the idea. The U.S. and Qatar, two critical intermediaries in the deal, are seeking to use the momentum of the pause to create a foundation for a more permanent end to the fighting that could see more hostages freed and civilians protected in Gaza.

Joining us now is IDF Spokesperson Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner.

Lieutenant Colonel, we appreciate your time.

To start with, there have been some pauses throughout the course of the hostage releases in the last couple of days. There appears to be some issues this morning as well. Do we believe at this point, based on information you have, that the release for today is on track?

LT. COL. PETER LERNER, IDF SPOKESMAN: Good morning, Phil.

Yes, indeed, we are taking the necessary steps to be prepared for a hostage release as it has happened over the last few days. But, at the same time, we're taking the necessary steps in order to be prepared for a new mobilization, a renewed attack against Hamas and its strongholds wherever they're holding out. That is the nature of our position currently in the course of the day. You know we've had heart- wrenching moments over the last three days in Israel here where people have been glued to the television just holding their breath to see who are the people that are coming out. And I saw your report about Maya Regev, who is a friend of a colleague of mine here in the IDF, and reports of the families and it touches everyone in Israeli society. And that is why it is so important to see this move forward but be prepared for the steps ahead.

HARLOW: And it is such joy for those families, also combined with anguish from the families who are still waiting, Lieutenant Colonel.

We just heard what Eylon Levy said about sort of the pause will continue. We are open to that as long as they keep their end of the bargain and keep releasing 10 hostages per day. And Netanyahu, overnight, saying it would be welcome.

For how long? How long is Israel willing to continue this truce?

LERNER: So, I -- you know, I can't talk on behalf of the government, but indeed the military needs to be prepared for both scenarios. We have two goals in mind, bringing the hostages home, and this is why the operational pauses that are taking place over the last three days, and today on day four, continue. It's part of the war effort and part of bringing the hostages home.

[06:40:01]

And as you indicated, and as the framework suggests that in order to bring more hostages home, the pauses can continue. The situation where we hold our fire will continue as long as they continue to hold up their end of the deal. But on the other hand, as the other war effort - the other goal that we have in mind is to dismantle and destroy Hamas as a governing authority in the Gaza Strip, the - this - the reason they need to go --

HARLOW: But I think, Colonel, that's the question -

LERNER: Sure.

HARLOW: You said as long as they hold up their end of the deal. As this deal is laid out, part of their end is ten hostages per day for a continued pause. Could that extend until all the hostages are out? That's what I'm trying to understand. Is that Israel's position at this point that it may be open to that, a full extension?

LERNER: Prime Minister Netanyahu said it quite explicitly yesterday. So, from our perspective, from the military's perspective, we need to be prepared for that reality. Of course, you know, they are still holding over 100 and - 200 -- around 200 hostages.

HARLOW: Yes.

LERNER: Ten people a day, that could be 20 days. So, we need to keep that in mind. And from our perspective, we need to be ready to mobilize at any - any moment. You know, it has been an emotional roller coaster over the last three days here in Israel where the release - and who was being released wasn't certain sometimes till the last - very last minute. So, from our perspective, we need to be prepared. Hamas has to go. The paradigm has to change. They can't have the power of government to every wield the sword of death above our heads ever again.

MATTINGLY: The operational capability of the IDF, is there a threshold, is there a number of days where you feel like, where IDF leadership feel like they will no longer have the capability or intelligence to restart the operations?

LERNER: No, Phil, we have both operational capability, operational movement, and I also say the resolve and the support of the people of Israel. There's an expectation that the paradigm that happened, or the cease-fire that existed before the 6th of October will never exist again, a reality where this terrorist organization does not wield that power to breach into our communities, attack our kibbutz (INAUDIBLE), come into our towns and abduct people, murder people, butcher babies in their bedrooms. That is the resolve of the people of Israel. And us as the IDF, the Israel Defense Forces, our role is to make sure that never happens again.

So, how long will we be prepared to mobilize? How long will we have the tools and the support? I think, looking forward, it's an extended period. I don't think that the government did not give us a time limit on this operation, just the two goals that we rightly pointed out, bringing home the hostages and making sure Hamas doesn't have that power again.

HARLOW: Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner, thank you very much for your time this morning as we await more hostages hopefully coming home soon.

LERNER: Good day, Poppy

HARLOW: Thanks.

MATTINGLY: Well, more than a hundred Palestinians have been released from Israeli prisons and more are expected to be released today. The questionable practice that led to many of them being detained, that's next.

HARLOW: Also, this just in, Elon Musk is in Israel this morning. You see him there with Prime Minister Netanyahu. He is there to learn more about the October 7th terror attack and massacre. Details about this trip as he faces intense personal backlash for what he has posted recently on X.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:47:12]

HARLOW: You are looking at live pictures of Ofer prison in the West Bank where more prisoners are set to be released today. As for the people who have already been let go, they were welcomed with celebrations in the West Bank. Some were paraded on people's shoulders. Others in the crowd waving Palestinian flags. So far 117 Palestinians, mainly teenage boys, have been released in the first three exchanges for hostages held in Gaza. One final exchange, that is expected in just a couple of hours.

Our Ben Wedeman joins us now from Jerusalem.

Ben, I'm glad you're - you're with us. What more can you tell us about the prisoners that have been released. We just saw how they were celebrated, welcomed back to the West Bank. And what do we expect today?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we do expect - I mean both sides, this Hamas and Israel, have indicated a willingness to consider extending this truce and to continue these exchanges of hostages, prisoners and detainees, although the details have yet to be nailed down.

What we're seeing on the Palestinian side is, for instance, last night another 39 were released, 23 of them were administrative detainees which mean they have been arrested but they don't know what the charges against them are. the evidence that is being used against them is secret and therefore they can't even access that. The other 16 are -- have been convicted - charges against all of these 39 are things like stone throwing, throwing Molotov cocktails, assaulting the police, nationalist incitement as it's called. But it's important to keep in mind that according to one NGO that monitors the Israeli military justice system in the West Bank, 95 percent of the cases that are -- go before military courts end up in convictions. Many human rights organizations believe that this system is fundamentally flawed.

But what we saw again last night again, big celebrations, people coming out to meet these prisoners and detainees who have been released. Now, what's interesting is increasingly we are seeing a lot of the green flags of Hamas. Hamas does not have an open political presence in the West Bank. But what we've seen is a surge of popularity of the - for the organization because they have managed through these deals with the Israelis to release so far 117 Palestinian detainees and prisoners.

[06:50:01]

And it's ironic, last night I was speaking with a senior diplomat who said that if there were to be an election in Gaza tomorrow, Hamas would barely win any votes. But if there were an election in the West Bank, Hamas would have a sweeping victory.

Poppy.

HARLOW: That is very telling.

Ben Wedeman, thank you very much for the reporting.

MATTINGLY: Well, new overnight, a hijacking attempt on the high seas. The confrontation between the U.S. Navy and pirates on a tanker in the Middle East.

HARLOW: The sources tell CNN the release of the fourth group of hostages could be slightly delayed. That would mean joyous homecomings like the reunions between Haran and her family could be on hold. Sixty-seven-year-old Shoshan Haran and her daughter Adi Shoham and Shoham's two children, Yahel and Neve were also brought home yesterday. For just a moment, the three and eight-year-olds went back to being carefree children. Look at them drawing there. Their father, though, still a hostage this morning. It is unclear when he could be released.

More in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:55:02]

MATTINGLY: Well, right now, you can see it, Elon Musk is in Israel meeting with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. An Israeli government official say Netanyahu took Musk to one of the kibbutz attacked by Hamas on October 7th. The two walked through the ruins and visited the home of four-year-old Israeli American Abigail Edan, who was kidnapped after her parents were murdered.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EYLON LEVY, ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN: The Prime Minister then took Mr. Musk to the Itamari (ph) family household where Mr. Musk heard about the family's horrific story and the murder of Roy and Smadar Edan, whose four-year-old Abigail, we're glad to say, was released from Hamas captivity yesterday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: So, the context here is crucial. This comes as Musk continues to face huge backlash for anti-Semitic posts on X.

Joining us now is the editor in chief of "The Jerusalem Post," Avi Mayer.

Avi, I was saying to our team just a moment ago, it's just so striking to see that. I mean after the things that he has re-tweeted and comments he's made, let's just remind people, he re-tweeted a comment just a couple of weeks ago that said, "Jewish communities have been pushing the exact kind of delectable hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them." And he wrote, quote, "you have said the actual truth."

Given that context, what does it mean to see him with Netanyahu here in this kibbutz?

AVI MAYER, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "THE JERUSALEM POST": Well, you know, we, in the Jewish faith, believe in repentance and atoning for one's sins. Perhaps that's what's going on right now. But the proof will be in the pudding. We'll have to see what happens on his platform, which indeed has been turned into a platform for all sorts of hate targeting a variety of groups. And perhaps most prominently anti-Semitism. And this anti-Semitism comes from a variety of sources. It comes from the far right, the far left and areas in between. And this is something that has run rampant for many years, but in many perceptions, it actually accelerated since Mr. Musk's acquisition of the platform. The question is whether this visit will change that trajectory in the future. MATTINGLY: Avi, can I ask, as we watch the prime minister from the video that we're showing from this morning with Elon Musk, inside Israel right now, on day four of these hostage releases, what is the public opinion about maintaining this truce, continuing this truce, extending it or restarting the combat operations that have been ongoing in the wake of the October 7th terror attacks.

MAYER: Well, there's a very painful debate taking place in Israel on exactly that question. There are many, of course, who are extremely supportive - I would say the majority of Israelis are supportive of any efforts to release those hostages, bring them home to their families. This is something that Israelis have wanted for eight weeks now, to see them come home and to see them brought back to their loved ones.

At the same time there's a very keen recognition, on the one hand, that those individuals who are being released by Israel are terrorists, people who have tried to murder Israelis. We know that many terrorists who have been released in the past, including in the Gilad Shalit deal in which 1,000 terrorists were released for one soldier did, in fact, returned to the cycle of violence and Yahya Sinwar, who was the commander of Hamas in Gaza, was one of those individuals. There are some concerns about what that might mean and there are also concerns about what this might mean for Israel's capacity to continue its military campaign and decimate Hamas' capability to carry out a massacre like October the 7th. How many days can Israel maintain its military readiness before it's significant impaired? And Israel's ability to continue its mission is - is harmed in that way.

HARLOW: It was notable that we just heard from Lieutenant Colonel Lerner from the IDF that they military have to be prepared for maybe 20 more days of pause if indeed more prisoners are released, ten per day. I thought this interview that our colleague, Dana Bash, did yesterday with Jake Sullivan, the national security adviser here, was particularly interesting, especially when she got to this question of Netanyahu's future and where his interest is. Is it in continuing the war given the very difficult questions he has to answer when the war is over about the lack of Israeli defense and intelligence on October 7th.

Listen to this exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: Is there any concern inside the Biden administration that Netanyahu doesn't necessarily see it as being in his interest to end this war as quickly as possible?

JAKE SULLIVAN, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Look, I'm not going to speculate on Israeli politics. What we're going to do is just stay focused on who's sitting in the chair of prime minister, and that is Prime Minister Netanyahu, and deal with him straight up on the issues that we are confronting today.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HARLOW: But, Avi, are there those questions among the Israeli people about Netanyahu's motivations?

MAYER: Look, I think there are many questions to be asked about both how we got to where we are today and where we're going in the future. I think it's very clear to everyone there will be a very serious reckoning once the dust settles and once this campaign does come to its conclusion. And the prime minister, like all the other leaders of the country, will have to give account as to what it is that led him and led the country to this point.

[07:00:04]

Right now, all Israelis can do is trust in their leadership and ensure that we are united.