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Dan Senor is Interviewed about the Israel-Hamas War; Atmospheric River Slams West Coast; Florida State Excluded from Playoffs; Warning of Second Trump Presidency. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired December 04, 2023 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:00]

DAN SENOR, CO-AUTHOR, "THE GENIUS OF ISRAEL": It's yes but, and then he lays these - these sort of caveats out. But Israelis here, we have a right to defend ourselves. And if we have a right to defend ourselves and we can't choose where Hamas chooses to fight, then there will be collateral damage.

They do give a lot of warning before they go in, right? In southern Gaza, what they've done over the last few days, which is extraordinary, is they've released these maps, these interactive maps, both in forms of hard copy flyers and on like an internet version so people -

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: But a lot of people don't have internet connectivity.

SENOR: But they dropped - but they dropped hundreds of thousands of flyers.

HARLOW: OK.

SENOR: No, no, I mean they're doing everything they can, yes.

HARLOW: Yes. Yes, I hear you.

SENOR: And these - and they're basically saying, this is where we're going to hit, this is where we're going to hit, this is the time we're going to hit. They're telling people to leave certain areas. This undermines Israel's war fighting because, obviously, the innocent civilians are seeing those maps. So are the people Israel is targeting. So Israel says - Israel's argument is, look, we're already going to extraordinary lengths. But if you believe, as you preface every one of your statements, U.S. officials, that we have a right to defend ourselves, what does defending ourselves look like if we cannot actually confront Hamas where they are.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: I think the question I have, particularly as it pertains to what the caveats you're talking about that U.S. officials have, is those caveats aren't being made in a vacuum. They have an audience as well. Just as the war cabinet in Israel has an audience and the political consensus and also where the country is, the population is, the U.S. is thinking through where Jordan is on this, where Egypt is on this, where the region - where the Saudis and the UAE are. They're thinking about what happens after.

SENOR: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Does that matter?

SENOR: Yes, so what U.S. officials are hearing behind closed doors from Arab leaders very clearly, and I've heard this from U.S. officials and I've also heard this from some officials in Arab governments, is, one, they think Yahya Sinwar, who's the leader of Hamas in Gaza, is a psychopath. That's the word they use over and over, first of all. Second of all, the Palestinian Authority, led by Abu Mazen, cannot take over Gaza after this war. They think that the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank is corrupt and they think Abu Mazen is ineffective.

Three, Israel has to destroy Hamas. So, these Arab leaders are telling the U.S. government, make sure Israel destroys Hamas because they view Hamas as a Palestinian sibling, if you will, the Palestine version of the Muslim Brotherhood, which the Muslim Brotherhood is a threat to these governments in the Arab world. Four, as they're doing all of that, can the images please not be too bad. So, we're concerned about the images that you were just showing at the front end of this segment because it has domestic implications for them in their own populations.

But, again, they lay out their views and then they put the caveat. But the front end of the view always include Israel must destroy Hamas. So, Israel's basically saying, we're hearing from the Arab League, we want - we want Hamas destroyed. We're hearing from the U.S. government we should - we're hearing form our own public we should destroy Hamas. So all these other items are important. But, at the end of the day, they're subordinated to removing this threat.

HARLOW: What did you make of the argument Tom Friedman made yesterday about Israel should have basically a red team and a blue team presenting different options. And he - he opened his column by quoting Confucius. And he said, "before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves, one for your enemy, one for yourself." And then he said, "Confucius was a smart guy."

Should Israel be thinking about that?

SENOR: Look, I think Israel should be thinking about who is going to rule Gaza once Israel is done, this war fighting. And that is - that is the big (INAUDIBLE). And, obviously, you do not want there to be a Hamas 2.0 that emerges from the rubble. But what Israeli leaders keep saying is, yes that is true, but when the United States was fighting the Nazis, when the United States was fighting imperial Japan, when the United States was fighting ISIS, the U.S. was facing mortal threat and it had to think about removing the mortal threat. If you cannot remove the mortal threat, you have nothing. Remove the mortal threat and then focus on what comes next.

There are over 200,000 Israelis, which out of a population of 9.3 million people is a lot. There are 200,000 Israelis who are not living in their homes because it is not safe to live in the communities they were living in, in southern Gaza. Israeli is asking - Israeli leaders are asking themselves, how do we get those 200,000 Israelis to move back to their communities? If they think there's any remnant of Hamas going to be lurking over in those communities, one, two, 10 kilometers away -

HARLOW: They won't go.

SENOR: They're not going to go. Which, if they're not willing to go, that means they're not willing to live in parts of Israel. If they're not willing to live in parts of Israel, that means there's no Israel. If people say that I can't live in this part, I can't live in that part, that means they can't live in any part and - and that's just the - that's how Israelis are - that's what the Israelis are telling U.S. officials, this is existential for us.

HARLOW: Dan, thank you, as always.

SENOR: Good to be with you.

HARLOW: We'll have you back very soon.

SENOR: All right.

HARLOW: So, outrage over another aspect of the attack Hamas launched on October 7th. Women call out the United Nations over its weeks' long delay in condemning directly the sexual violence and rape of female victims.

MATTINGLY: And a powerful atmospheric river of rain and snow is slamming the Pacific Northwest. Look at this car. It slid off the snowy road in the mountains of Washington state.

Meteorologist Derek Van Dam is tracking all of the storms right now.

Derek, what are we seeing?

DEREK VAN DAM, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yes, perfect winter wonderland for parts of the Pacific Northwest. That's because this series of atmospheric rivers that have brought this firehose of moisture to the region has had freezing levels low enough to create this perfect winter wonderland that you see here out of Leavenworth, Washington.

[06:35:07]

But the next approaching atmospheric river has got a moisture plume. That's - you can trace it all the way back to basically Hawaii. So that means it's going to be warmer. And that means that we're going see more rain out of this event. So it will melt the snow and also produce significant flood threat for the region.

CNN THIS MORNING will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTINGLY: Unfathomable, disgusted, heartbroken, they're just some of the words used to describe the decision to exclude Florida State University from the college football playoffs. Yes, college football matters in this country. These are the four teams that will actually get a shot for the national championship.

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Unfortunately, Michigan is one of them. Alabama, Washington, Texas also in these. Who's not? The Seminoles. The Seminoles are undefeated, and the school and its fans are furious they have been left out.

CNN's Coy Wire joins us now.

Coy, there's not really a lot of precedent for this. This always pisses people off every year. But this - this is another level.

COY WIRE, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Yes, and the opinion of these 13 college football payoff committee members, that's all that matters. And this decision was a matter of what's rational and what's right. Rational says an Alabama would be huge favorites over Florida State given the Noles are missing their star quarterback. Many, though, feel the right thing to do would be to put those undefeated Seminoles in because they still went undefeated, still have the talent, still win their conference, it still wasn't enough.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To me, this is a travesty to the sport. The name of the game is to win.

WIRE (voice over): Florida State's perfect season wasn't perfect enough. The Seminoles becoming the first undefeated power five team left out of the playoff. Texas and Alabama make the top four, even with a loss.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's an abomination that Alabama's in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Broken. Devastated. And I'm sure there is a lot of anger.

WIRE (voice over): The Seminoles visibly upset upon finding out, after finishing off the perfect season with a win over Louisville in the ACC title game Saturday night. But they did it with a third-string quarterback. Starter Jordan Travis suffering a season-ending knee injury just over two weeks ago. The playoff selection committee said that was a big factor in their decision.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Florida State is a different team than they were through the first 11 weeks. Without Jordan Travis, without the offensive dynamic that he brings to it, they are a different team.

WIRE (voice over): Travis went right to social media, posting, "devastated. Heartbroken. In so much disbelief right now. I wish my leg broke earlier in the season so y'all could see this team as much more than the quarterback. I thought results matter."

His coach, Mike Norvell, echoing his frustration. MIKE NORVELL, FLORIDA STATE FOOTBALL COACH: You know, that just hurt

our players, I mean, to be honest with you. That was a - you know, it was one of the tougher moments I've had to experience. And your truest identity shows up in times of great adversity. And we faced it.

WIRE (voice over): Florida lawmakers blasting the decision. Republican Senator Rick Scott says he'll be demanding the committee answer as to how the decision was made. And Democratic Congressman Jared Moskowitz says he'll be introducing a resolution condemning the committee's choice, saying, quote, "this decision is about TV money, a corrupt decision for college athletics."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For your team to be good enough to do everything that you're supposed to do based on the records and the states and still get robbed of that opportunity. So, it's a sad day in college football.

WIRE (voice over): Texas lost to Oklahoma, but a win over Alabama and a convincing win in the Big 12 title game moved them ahead of Florida State in the eyes of the committee. Bama went unbeaten after the early loss and knocked out two-time defending champion Georgia for the SEC title.

NICK SABAN, ALABAMA FOOTBALL COACH: Florida State is certainly a good team and to go undefeated in their league and it's unfortunate that some good team had to get left out. But I really think that our team earned the right to be here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIRE (on camera): Oh, the drama. Our resident Ohio State Buckeye, superfan and alum, Phil Mattingly, knows something similar has happened. The 2014 Buckeyes made the playoff with a third-string quarterback. Many feel Florida State deserved the same chance. Good thing they're going to a 12 team playoff next year.

MATTINGLY: Coy, just for viewers, what happened in 2014?

WIRE: I think those Buckeyes went on to win it all. He's still living in - in that glory.

MATTINGLY: That's all I'm saying. That's - Coy, at this point, that's all I got. That's all I got.

Coy Wire, we appreciate you, my man. Thank you.

WIRE: You got it.

HARLOW: Much more on this later, I promise you that.

Liz Cheney sounding off on Donald Trump and saying America is sleepwalking into a dictatorship. Why she is going after him and perhaps even more notably the Republican control of the House.

MATTINGLY: And Robert de Niro taking a shot at President Biden's age in a joke while honoring Billy Crystal at the Kennedy Center Awards last night.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT DE NIRO, ACTOR: You've done it all in such a relatively short amount of time. You're only 75. That means you're just about six years away from being the perfect age to be elected president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[06:48:33]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN DICKERSON, CBS NEWS: You say Donald Trump, if he is re-elected, it will be the end of the republic. What do you mean?

LIZ CHENEY, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE (R-WY): He's told us what he will do. It's very easy to see the steps that he will take. People who say, well, if he's elected, it's not that dangerous because we have all of these checks and balances don't fully understand the extent to which the Republicans in Congress today have been co-opted. One of the things that we see happening today is a sort of a sleepwalking into a dictatorship in the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: And that is from former Republican, very conservative, Congresswoman Liz Cheney, warning that re-electing Donald Trump as president will be the end of the republic.

MATTINGLY: Now, Trump's proposed 2024 agenda includes ending birthright citizenship to children of people in the U.S. illegally, ordering Immigration and Customs Enforcement to target legal citizens who espouse, quote "anti-American" and anti-Semitic views, re-imposing the travel ban from his first presidential term, terminating the Department of Education, and reclassifying federal workers in order to easily fire them and possibly investigating his political opponents as well.

Now, we know this because Trump has announced much of it during his campaign rallies. All of it's on his campaign website.

HARLOW: Writers and editors of "The Atlantic" are so concerned they are dedicating the entire next issue to how a second Trump presidency (INAUDIBLE). Let me read you some of them. "The Revenge Presidency," "America Will Abandon NATO," "Loyalists, Lapdogs and Cronies," "Women Will be Targets," and, "The Specter of Family Separation."

[06:50:07]

That comes out later this week.

Back with us at the table, Jamal Simmons, Lee Carter and John Avlon.

John, Liz Cheney's interview with John Dickerson was striking, yes on Trump, but I thought perhaps even more striking when she said this about who should - because her book gets a lot into Mike Johnson.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.

HARLOW: Before she knew he was going to be speaker of the House and how he was a friend and then she viewed him as dangerous. But this is what she said about why Republicans, like her, Republicans, should not control the House in 2025 when it comes time to certify the election.

Here you go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIZ CHENEY, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE (R-WY): I believe very strongly in those principles and ideals that have define the Republican Party. But the Republican Party of today has made a choice. And they haven't chosen the Constitution. And so I do think it's -- it presents a threat if the Republicans are in the majority in January 2025.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Were you as stuck by hearing that from her as I was?

AVLON: Yes.

HARLOW: Yes.

AVLON: But I think it's just that stark. She's been warning for a while you can't be for Donald Trump and the Constitution. Those two things are fundamentally intentioned. I think the phrase sleepwalking into a dictatorship should wake people up.

Well, we have been sleepwalking into this election. Donald Trump is the first major party, you know, person who's likely to be a nominee. And we haven't voted yet. And I think there's still a chance for Republicans to take their party back.

But who's campaigning on an autocratic platform. And the policies that you laid out are all indications of that, in addition to his own instincts and temperament. So, this is a five-alarm fire for our democracy. And that's about something much bigger than Democrat versus Republican teamism that has dominated our politics. And that's what Liz Cheney is warning about with unique credibility.

And I'll say, it's not just Liz Cheney, right? Look at the number of former Trump administration officials who are warning starkly that returning Donald Trump to the presidency would be fundamentally dangerous to our democratic republic.

MATTINGLY: And I - I want to expand on this because I think this is an important point because a lot of people, Lee, will see "The Atlantic" issue and think back to the "National Review" issue back in 2016 and say, wait, none of this stuff moves the needle. This doesn't change anything. You know, or - and that was all about things that didn't actually happen.

What's going to be different this time isn't just necessarily pursuing specific policies, it's personnel as well and making various (INAUDIBLE) magazine has a piece on (INAUDIBLE) Hogan Gidley, a former (INAUDIBLE) White House spokesperson saying, "I think there's going to be a concerted, calculated effort to insure that the people he puts in his next administration, they don't have to share his world view exactly, but they have to implement it." Basically, obedience over credentials to some degree.

LEE CARTER, STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Well, I mean, that's what we're - that's what he's saying here. But I think we have to take a step back because to say that this is going to be so influential to the election, when you see something like Liz Cheney saying this, you have to understand that Republicans, just like Democrats, think democracy is at threat if the other side wins. Fifty-two percent of Democrats believe that democracy is at threat, but 47 percent of Republicans think that democracy is under threat if the other party to win.

And it's for very different reasons. I think both parties are baffled by each other, both parties are terrified of each other and they're not going to hear this from somebody that they don't necessarily trust as credible. And I think many Republicans look at Liz Cheney as a former Republican who has abandoned the party.

AVLON: But the fundamental difference is that Liz Cheney is a conservative Republican. And her father was a multiterm vice president who's been wanting the same thing, that the Trump administration officials who were saying this are not just Republicans but conservatives who served with the man they're warning about. There's nothing remotely analogous to that in the Democratic Party right now. That's just reality.

HARLOW: There's a two - there's a two-page spread in "The Atlantic," bright red pages, Jamal, with quotes from everyone, from John Kelly, to Rex Tillerson, former secretary of state, to Jim Mattis, to all of these people saying, basically it can't happen it is so dangerous.

The question is, that just has not moved the needle for Republican primary voters at all.

JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It hasn't moved it -

HARLOW: The people that were there in the room.

SIMMONS: That's right, it hasn't moved the needle for Republican primary voters. It has moved the needle for the American electorate. And if you think about what's happened in the election since Donald Trump got elected in 2016, '18, '20, '22, we have seen the American people say, no, thank you.

Here's the softer side of the problem, of what we were talking about. When you're in government, when you're in an organization, people want to please the person who's in charge, right?

AVLON: Yes.

SIMMONS: Everybody's trying to do what's going to be best for the boss. You want your pat on the shoulder, you want your gold star.

If the president is a person who believes that they want to - it's like they want more things for themselves, right, they want retribution as the order of the day, then people will do more of those things in order to impress the president. And that filters its way all the way down.

My friends from the Obama administration used to say, you send an idea to the lawyer because that's where fun went to die, right, because the president will - you know, never wanted to do anything that was going to get him in legal trouble. If that's not the case, people begin to do all sorts of things that might seem fun but are not good for the democracy.

AVLON: And this is the point Liz Cheney was making about Mike Johnson and his descent, right? There is a -

HARLOW: Isn't that fascinating, by the way, that she wrote all this stuff before he was speaker?

AVLON: Before he was. Yes. And saying that, look, good people will start losing their moral bears in a desire for careerism, right?

[06:55:06]

At the end of the day it's to get ahead. And that is such a selling- out the country cheat. And in a fundamentally way. That this sort of teamism and careerism can erode fidelity to the Constitution and to the democracy and the things that people espouse in private.

And, look, Democrats need to understand, there's a reason, they need to do more reflecting on why polls show that often people view the two parties as equally extreme. That's a perception problem that Democrats need to take seriously. But we shouldn't pretend that it's rooted in reality in the same way when you have so many Republicans coming forward and warning about Donald Trump.

CARTER: But I think to dismiss it is their own peril because, at the end of the day, what we're doing is saying, one is evil, one is right. And that's the problem with - you see Republicans did their heels - Republicans will dig in their heels because you're going on - you're going to tell them that in order to admit this they were wrong. And that is something that they're just not willing to do.

AVLON: Well, that's about saving face. That's a - that's a difference (ph) above it. And, yes, absolutely. And, by the way, there should be much more humility about the feedback look between the extremes and their politics, but we also have to have the reality filter about how proportional those are.

SIMMONS: And the reality filter, I just want to remind, the reality filter is, people are trying to please a boss. And that is what is dangerous. When you have a boos who is not up to doing anything good for the country and the democracy.

MATTINGLY: Jamal, John, Lee, thanks, guys.

CARTER: Thank you.

HARLOW: Wait for this story, a father makes a stunning revelation on his death bed, telling his daughter he robbed a bank, stole nearly a quarter million dollars 50 years ago. His daughter joins us ahead.

MATTINGLY: And at least 11 mountain climbers have been killed and another dozen are missing right now after a highly active volcano erupted on an Indonesian island. Officials say rescue operations and evacuations are underway, but both are being hampered by even more eruptions this morning.

Stay with us.

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