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CNN This Morning

Israel Announces It's Expanding Ground Assaults to Entire Gaza Strip Including Southern Gaza Where Civilians Fled; Biden Administration Pressures Israel to Allow More Aid Trucks into Gaza; Nikki Haley's Path to the Republican Nomination; Trump Leads in Polls Six Weeks from Iowa Caucuses; Liz Cheney: US Sleepwalking into a Dictatorship. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired December 04, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And then you have creditors who are owed money. And so the essence of it is the Sacklers are not a party to the bankruptcy. So why is the argument should they be immune from any future liability as all. And to the extent that the Supreme Court says that a bankruptcy court has the right for parties who are not in bankruptcy, who may be the millionaires and billionaires behind these businesses, to receive immunity, to your point, Poppy, it sets a standard and a precedent for not only Purdue but for major corporations into the future, and that is wholly significant.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: It was really interesting to that point to see the Catholic Church write an amicus brief in support of Purdue's position on all of this, to that point, Joey.

Beth, let me end with you. You talk about real justice versus what you call billionaire justice. What do you mean?

BETH MACY, AUTHOR, "DOPESICK": I mean that if this plan goes through, what's going to keep another family of millionaires that want to be billionaires from introducing a faulty product and finding a loophole in the bankruptcy system which was not intended to give billionaires loopholes. There would be no deterrence going forward.

HARLOW: Beth, thank you for being with us and for your excellent reporting on this in your books, and Joey, your legal analysis as always. We'll follow it closely.

And CNN THIS MORNING continues right now.

Good morning, everyone. Here's where we start this morning. Israel Defense Forces say it hit 200 targets inside Gaza and is calling for people in parts of southern Gaza to evacuate, leaving civilians scrambling to try to find anywhere safe to go. The White House is warning Israel to limit civilian casualties and to come back to the negotiating table.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: And "The Atlantic" is releasing a special edition this morning, two dozen essays all warning what a second Trump presidential term would look like. We will speak to one of the journalists who says if Trump wins in November, the U.S. will withdraw from its oldest and strongest military alliance, NATO.

HARLOW: Also this morning, we will bring you the chilling details from a "New York Times" report that says air traffic controllers are being ushed to the brink. Incidents of sleeping, drinking, doing drugs on the job creating vulnerabilities in a crucial protective layer in our aviation safety. We will bring you those details ahead.

This hour of CNN THIS MORNING is now.

You are looking at live images. This is dark smoke rising over Gaza. It is the afternoon there. Israel announced it is expanding the ground assault to the entire Gaza Strip, including the south, where so many civilians have fled. And also, this morning, in Tel Aviv, at least one rocket was intercepted. The Israeli, military ramping up its air strikes and ordering civilians to evacuate. Meanwhile, we are tracking the growing threat of this war escalating into a wider conflict.

MATTINGLY: In the Red Sea, the Pentagon says a U.S. Navy destroyer came to the rescue of three commercial ships that were attacked with drones and ballistic missiles. U.S. officials say the destroyer shot down multiple drones launched by Iranian backed Houthi rebels in Yemen. We're also keeping a close eye on Israel's northern border with Lebanon where Israeli forces have once again been exchanging fire with Hezbollah and striking targets with fighter jets. This morning, the IDF says mortar fire from Lebanon injured three Israeli soldiers.

HARLOW: Joining us now, CNN political and foreign policy analyst Barak Ravid. He is also political and foreign policy reporter at "Axios." Susan Glasser joins us, staff writer with "The New Yorker." Thank you both so much for being here.

Barak, let me just begin with you. You have some interesting new reporting on what the U.S. is trying to do behind the scenes, right? Yes, they want Israel and Hamas back at the negotiating table, but particularly when it comes to humanitarian aid for Palestinian civilians in Gaza, what can you tell us?

BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL AND FOREIGN POLICY ANALYST: Yes, good morning. I think the Biden administration has been sending for the last two or three days since the ceasefire collapsed very clear messages to the Israeli government, telling them, listen, we understand that the negotiations over the hostages collapsed, and we even understand that you're resuming your military campaign in Gaza. But this does not mean that you can stop the humanitarian aid flows into the Gaza Strip. And the U.S. wants those humanitarian aid supplies to be at the same level they were during the ceasefire and even more. And the last 24 hours, I think something moved on the Israeli side and the Israelis are ramping up the amount of trucks coming into Gaza, and it seems like the amount of aid coming into Gaza will increase.

MATTINGLY: Susan, on the idea of, or the concerns of the risk of an escalation in the conflict right now, those concerns seemed to die down a little bit during the pause, and during the hostage exchanges. Very clearly back front of mind today. How real is the risk right now?

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SUSAN GLASSER, STAFF WRITER, "THE NEW YORKER": Yes. I think I'm picking up an enormous amount of concern here in Washington, not only about what is the nature of what appears to be a ground invasion of the south of Gaza, what is that going to be like? Again, you're asking civilians to flee the place you already asked them to flee to. So the question is very real of where are these people even going to go. Is Israel going to conduct the war in the south on the ground any differently than it did in the northern part of Gaza?

Also hearing increasing concerns that this risk of an escalation regionally is not past us, that while the initial phase of the war seemed to have unfolded without the worst case scenarios of drawing Israel into kind of multifront conflict, that there is a real ongoing concern about that northern border, which you mentioned, of course, these increasing attacks on U.S. military interests, the actions by the Houthis and other Iranian proxies in the region. So just a very perilous moment right now. Never mind the politics here in Washington, which of course are very stressful for the Biden administration.

HARLOW: Barak, Susan brings up the north, and we have seen continued exchanges of fire over the northern border with Israel, between Israel and Hezbollah, even this morning. Does the IDF have the capacity to successfully defeat Hezbollah, which is bigger and stronger than Hamas, at the same time that it attempts to take out Hamas?

RAVID: Well, I don't think the Israelis are trying to defeat Hezbollah at the moment. The priority list is very, very clear, at least publicly, that first Israel will finish what it's doing against Hamas in the south, and maybe later on it will move to the north. But the posture in the north right now is to try and keep it below the threshold of an all out war, to continue those skirmishes, especially as long as Hezbollah is shooting and fire rockets into Israel, but to avoid an all out war.

MATTINGLY: Susan, you mentioned the domestic politics that this administration has had to grapple with even inside their own White House, to some degree. My question has been, how long can the president, who has been so steadfast and so explicit about where he stands and the ability for the Israelis to conduct military operations in response to October 7th, does he have a time window here? Is he going to have to shift at some point, given those domestic political concerns?

GLASSER: Well, I did think it was notable and interesting when the secretary of state made his recent visit just in the last few days to Israel. He's clearly talking about a different timeframe than the messaging you're hearing from the Israelis, and wanting this to be wrapped up as soon as possible.

I'm also struck by the extent to which Biden and his top advisers are continuing to have to use an enormous amount of leverage that they, in theory, have on Israel for relatively minor asks. Here we are weeks and weeks into the conflict, and you're talking about how many trucks can we get in, and senior levels of the administration worrying about trucks. It's not the big picture, right? And it strikes me that it seems there's an enormous amount of day-to-day negotiation going on for the U.S. administration. To what end is not clear. How much influence has President Biden really purchased in effect with his enormous public support for Netanyahu.

HARLOW: Barak, before we go, what is going to happen in a couple of hours at the United Nations. Is it there is going to be a special session held on the sexual assault and the rapes that occurred from Hamas to so many innocent Israeli women on October 7th? Sheryl Sandberg is going to be sort of the big face there. She used to help run Facebook, she started Lean In. Can you speak of the significance of that and the context of so much silence, really, from many progressive women's groups leading up to a lot of anger that this just has not been highlighted?

RAVID: Yes, I think if you ask a lot of women in Israel, especially women who are activists in women's rights groups and women's rights movement, they will talk about the betrayal of who they thought are their allies for so many years, and especially international organizations like the U.N. And I think that as the days pass, we see more and more evidence for sexual violence against Israeli women during the October 7th attacks. And by the way, there are still 15 Israeli women held hostage by Hamas at the moment, and there's a reason -- Israeli officials think that there's a reason that Hamas is not letting them go. And the reason, according to Israeli officials is that Hamas is concerned that those women will tell when they will get out of Gaza, will tell about what happened to them in Gaza.

[08:10:05]

And I hear it from more than one and more than two and more than three Israeli officials. And I think this is a very serious issue, and it's good that the U.N. is finally dealing with it.

MATTINGLY: Barak Ravid, Susan Glasser, thank you.

HARLOW: Nikki Haley is getting momentum in the final weeks before the Iowa caucuses. She is still way behind Donald Trump, though, but does she have a chance? Is there a path to the Republican nomination for her? We're going to map out those options.

MATTINGLY: And Ron DeSantis just completed his campaign tour of all 99 Iowa counties, but turmoil and a super PAC backing could bring more dysfunction to his campaign efforts. We're going to bring you the details just ahead.

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MATTINGLY: There are just 41 days to go until the Iowa caucuses. We've got a clock for you.

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MATTINGLY: The first major test in the Republican presidential primary, Donald Trump continues to lead every major poll of the race. But Nikki Haley seems to have at least some momentum to be his chief primary rival.

CNN senior data reporter Harry Enten is here. I think unequivocally, no one has run a better campaign than Nikki Haley. I think anybody that has no dog in the fight would acknowledge that fact. My question is, is there any precedent, is there any model for her to follow to overtake Donald Trump?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICS WRITER AND ANALYST: All right, so let's just sort of map out where we are right now. And look, Donald Trump leads in Iowa, he leads in New Hampshire, he leads nationally. He leads by a ton nationally. All right, there is no precedent for anyone coming back from that large of a deficit nationally right now. You see Nikki Haley, 52 points, or she was 52 points behind in the latest NBC News poll. She's cut the deficit, but she's still down by 45 points.

But here's the key thing I want you to keep in mind. Not only does Nikki Haley have some momentum, the deficit she faces in Iowa and New Hampshire are significantly smaller than the deficit she faces nationally, and that's key because we have a sequential primary process.

[08:15:05]

The early states sort of dictate potentially how the later states will go and momentum is key.

Now we're talking about a path, right? And we're looking to history. Is there any history to give any sort of hope to Nikki Haley? And I think the biggest one I would point to is the 1984 Democrats. Why?

This is my Walter Mondale's margin over Gary Hart. Okay, look, Walter Mondale became the nominee, but look how far ahead he was nationally at this point? He was 39 points ahead. He only ended up winning the nomination and the popular vote by just two points.

How was she able to -- how was Gary Hart able to do that? Walter Mondale, 40 points in Iowa, ended up just being a 32-point march. In New Hampshire, that momentum that Gary Hart got from that momentum of coming in close unexpectedly in Iowa was able to catapult him and that's I think the key. Can Nikki Haley get some momentum out of these early states?

MATTINGLY: So there has been some momentum over the course of the last couple weeks -- big endorsements, big money, good debate performances. What carries that momentum or what could carry in New Hampshire, Iowa and beyond?

ENTEN: Yes. So here's the thing I think to keep in mind, people who aren't voting for Nikki Haley, their mind is made up, only 44 percent in Iowa say their mind is made up if they're not voting for Nikki Haley; in New Hampshire, it's just 57 percent. So there are plenty of gettable voters.

Of course, here's the thing though. Iowa, New Hampshire, what's the third state? It's South Carolina, right, where Nikki Haley was the former governor. If you look at the primary vote choice, she's about 30 points behind, but viewed very favorably -- very favorably, she is just down by 14.

So there's clearly some more voters that are gettable for her there as there were in Iowa and New Hampshire and we'll just have to wait and see what happens -- Phil.

MATTINGLY: You have a great piece on dot-com that people should read about...

ENTEN: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: ... the actual pathway.

Harry, we appreciate you, my friend. Thank you.

HARLOW: It is a great one indeed.

All right with us this morning, writer of the "Very Serious" Newsletter, Josh Barro and CNN senior political commentator, Ana Navarro.

What do you think, Ana? Nikki Haley has got a path?

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, I was -- as I was listening to Phil and Harry, they were talking about how she has run the best campaign, but that all relative, right? Everybody else in the field has been awful.

Remember, when this all began, Ron DeSantis, the governor of my state, sadly, was supposed to be the great non-Trump hope and he has deflated like an old helium balloon.

He truly is watching his campaign, it is like one of those helium balloons that was really shiny at the beginning, and it is now just hanging on by the strings, a sad-looking little thing.

So what is Nikki Haley's path? Everybody else needs to drop out. Her only path is if Ron DeSantis comes to his senses, realizes there is no shot for him, drops out; Chris Christie realizes, okay, I've done what I'm doing, but I'm -- you know, I'm not going to be the nominee. Drops out.

And all of those little pockets of votes go to Nikki Haley.

JOSH BARRO, WRITER, "VERY SERIOUS" NEWSLETTER: The problem is not all those pockets of votes go to Nikki Haley in that scenario.

HARLOW: They go nowhere?

BARRO: Well, a lot of the Ron DeSantis voters end up going to Trump.

HARLOW: Right.

NAVARRO: You're right. BARRO: The -- I mean, DeSantis has run this more Trump camp than

Trump campaign, which hasn't worked at all. But I mean, to the extent that he has support, a substantial number of his voters, their second choice is Trump. They were looking for something similar than Trump -- to Trump. What's more similar to Trump than Trump himself?

And so I just -- you know, I don't see any sign in these polls that there is a majority that prefers Nikki Haley over Donald Trump in a head-to-head. When you see them pull that head-to-head, you see Donald Trump beats Nikki Haley.

HARLOW: And to Ana's point about they all have to drop out now before Iowa, essentially, right, is what you're saying.

NAVARRO: I can't imagine why Ron DeSantis, who has, you know, now gone to 99 counties in Iowa --

HARLOW: Yes, why would he?

NAVARRO: Why he would stick around to get beaten like a drum and humiliated come back to Florida like a lame duck.

HARLOW: Isn't this why Chris Christie, you can make the argument, would he drop out because he really doesn't want Trump to be the nominee, he is like, this is best to not have him be the nominee. DeSantis doesn't think that way.

BARRO: Well, I don't think DeSantis would drop out before Iowa. I think conceivably, if DeSantis has a very disappointing performance in Iowa if he finishes third, which is certainly possible, I could imagine him dropping out shortly after Iowa.

The thing for him versus Haley is that Iowa is supposed to be his strongest state. He is trying to rerun the Ted Cruz playbook. Ted Cruz won Iowa in 2016. He really needs to win Iowa.

In this theoretical scenario where Nikki Haley finds a way to come up through and win, I don't think she needs to win Iowa. I think she needs to play second in Iowa and win New Hampshire.

So conceivably, he could drop out after Iowa. I think Chris Christie, I don't know exactly what's inside his head, but my sense has always been that he's here to stop Trump. Part of what he was trying to do was get the attacks out there on Trump so the other candidates can pick up on them.

If that's his broad strategy, he should drop out before the voting in New Hampshire because his voters in New Hampshire really will substantially all accrue to Nikki Haley, so if that's his goal, I think that he ought to do that and maybe he will.

[08:20:03]

But I still -- you know, I can still imagine a scenario where Nikki Haley manages to eke out a win in New Hampshire as Gary Hart won in New Hampshire in 1984. I don't see that being enough for her to win this nomination because I think just overall in this party, in states where the electorate is more conservative, where you don't have a ton of independent voters voting in the primary like you will have in New Hampshire, I just don't see her as preferred over Donald Trump by the voters.

NAVARRO: I don't see her preferred by Donald Trump either, and I can tell you that in Florida, he will thump everybody else, including DeSantis if he is still hanging around by then.

So you know, I just -- I think Nikki Haley has performed better than everybody else on that stage, but it is this surreal dynamic, right, where you've got this primary playing out and debates going on amongst people who are Lilliputians in comparison to Gulliver, so that just -- there's something there that it's like, there's two parallel universes, where you've got a primary going on, and the guy who's winning the primaries, the guy that is not engaged in the primary, who's not even giving them the time of day. He is now focused on Joe Biden.

BARRO: And that's been smart. We've been saying, you know, Nikki Haley -- the person who is running the best campaign right now in this primary is Donald Trump, in part because he's gotten out of the way. It was really -- staying out of the debates not only avoided elevating all the other candidates in the primary, it has also elevated Joe Biden in the general election way that's unfavorable to Joe Biden. People aren't talking about Donald Trump.

MATTINGLY: Are we not defining competency down to some degree about like, not participating in anything, is why like what we're at?

BARRO: Well isn't running the best campaign making the best strategic choices that are available to you in the situation that you're in? I think that -- you know, I think that's part of the problem for everyone who's running against Donald Trump this cycle.

This is third presidential campaign. He's gotten better at it. He's made better hires. Susie Wiles who is running the campaign is a much smarter operative than the people who have been doing this for him previously.

NAVARRO: Who was ousted from the DeSantis world back in this --

BARRO: Yes.

NAVARRO: You know, but something that I don't think helps Nikki Haley, helps her in some ways, right, is all of these endorsements by people like Paul Ryan and the Koch network.

Yes, it's going to give her money, it gives her credibility with donors. It gives her credibility with people like me, but what are we to the Republican base? We're RINOs, we're elitists. We're establishment.

We don't define the Republican base. So, I actually think it backfires on her in certain ways because it lines her up with that section of the party. HARLOW: That's really interesting.

Ana Navarro, thank you. Josh Barro, good to have you back.

BARRO: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Meanwhile, this morning, the Office of Management and Budget Director is warning the US could end up "kneecapping Ukraine" when it comes to funding. We're going to tell you why the White House is raising such serious alarm.

HARLOW: Also, a new edition of "The Atlantic" warning what could happen in a second Trump presidency including the possibility the US will pull out of NATO in the middle of Russia's war on Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: On Ukraine, you've got to pay up. Why are we a hundred and twenty-five, a hundred and thirty, maybe more than that billion dollars -- not million -- billion dollars ahead of you? Why? And you're right next to it. We're an ocean away. We have a whole ocean in between us.

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[08:27:27]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIZ CHENEY, FORMER US REPRESENTATIVE: He's told us what he will do. People who say, well, if he's elected, it's not that dangerous, because we have all of these checks and balances don't fully understand the extent to which the Republicans in Congress today have been coopted.

One of the things that we see happening today is a sort of a sleepwalking into dictatorship in the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Quite a warning from former Republican congresswoman, Liz Cheney on the dangers of a second Trump presidency and what they pose to democracy. She is not alone.

"The Atlantic" out today with a special issue filled with a series of essays arguing that a second Trump presidency would be more damaging than the first. This collection includes the following criticisms from former Trump officials including former Attorney General Bill Barr, who says Trump "will always put his own interests and gratifying his own ego ahead of everything else, including the country's interest."

Former Defense Secretary Mark Esper says he puts himself before the country. MATTINGLY: Former White House Chief of Staff John Kelly says: "The

depths of his dishonesty is just astounding to me. He's the most flawed person I have ever met in my life."

Former Secretary of State Rex Tillerson: "His understanding of global events, his understanding of global history, his understanding of US history is really limited."

Our next guest published one of those essays titled "America will Abandon NATO," joining us now is Anne Applebaum, a Pulitzer Prize winning historian, staff writer at "The Atlantic."

I think this is a really important moment to pay attention to policy. I think a lot of people have been working on that over the course of the last couple of weeks and months, not just horse race, policy as well.

On this issue, specifically, what convinces you this time will be different? He's always raised concern since the convention in 2016, I vividly remember it, about NATO. But this time, if he's in office, he will actually withdraw.

ANNE APPLEBAUM, STAFF WRITER, "THE ATLANTIC": Well, famously, Trump told John Bolton, "I don't give a shit about NATO," and Bolton has said that, in his view, the only reason Trump didn't act on it is because he and Rex Tillerson and Mike Pence and Mike Pompeo prevented him from doing it.

None of those people will be in the White House or anywhere near the White House in Trump's second term. All of them have criticized him since 2020. He will not rehire them.

Instead, he will have a cohort of officials who are either people who don't care about NATO and don't care about America's alliances around the world or actively hostile to them. And so we will see a very -- we'll see a very different set of policies.

And remember, what's really important about NATO is it's not just a treaty, it is a treaty that says, okay, everybody who signed it should, in theory, come to the aid of anybody else if they're attacked. But it's more than just a legal document, it's also a psychology.

You know, why don't the Russians attack Poland given that so much aid for Ukraine is coming through Poland? The reason they don't do it is because they think the US would respond.

HARLOW: Right.

APPLEBAUM: Once they don't believe the US will respond, you know, then why not do it?

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