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Anne Applebaum is Interviewed about a Trump Presidency; Border Talks Hit Snag; Disturbing Air Traffic Controller Report; Florida State Left out of Playoffs; Harvard Researcher Pushed Out of Job. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired December 04, 2023 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

ANNE APPLEBAUM, HISTORIAN: Or actively hostile to them. And so we will see a very - we'll see a very different set of policies.

And, remember, what's really important about NATO is that it's not just a treaty. It's a treaty that says, OK, everybody who signed it should, in theory, come to the aid of anybody else I they're attacked. But it's more than just a legal document. It's also a psychology. You know, why don't the Russians attack Poland given that so much aid for Ukraine is coming through Poland. The reason they don't do it is because they think the U.S. would respond.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Right.

APPLEBAUM: Once they don't believe the U.S. will respond, you know, then why not do it?

HARLOW: Right. And your point about Article V, you know, when was that invoked, for America, by the way, post 9/11. That explicit, remarkable quote from Trump that you start your piece out with, "I don't give an expletive about NATO," also harkens back to what you wrote for "The Washington Post" in 2016. Here it is, "right now we are two or three bad elections away from the end of NATO, the end of the European Union, and maybe the end of the liberal world order as we know it today." That was then. Look at now if Trump wins.

APPLEBAUM: So, we were saved in 2020 by the fact that Trump lost. There have been a couple of elections in Europe that have - that have not gone to the far right who would also break up the European Union, who would also threaten NATO. But, you know, it's not as if that threat just went away or disappeared or, you know, went into the ether, it's still very real. Trump is now running his third election campaign, as you've just been saying on this program. And this time he will be surrounded by people who are much more serious about carrying out, not just in foreign policy, but in domestic policy, in all kinds of spheres, much harsher and much more anti-constitutional policies.

One more thing I would say is that, remember, Trump is now running explicitly - explicitly on a policy of rejecting the U.S. Constitution, of saying that the insurrection on January the 6th was correct, was the right thing to do. He will then - he will then be a U.S. president who takes power, having explicitly rejected the U.S. Constitution. And that will be something that we have not had ever before.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Anne, one thing I'm not sure people necessarily grasp is how international -- the international community watches U.S. politics, how they plan for U.S. politics, how embassies are - a huge part of their job is trying to handicap U.S. politics and help their leaders prepare for it.

When you talk to officials in Europe, when you talk to U.S. allies around the world, how are they preparing for this moment?

APPLEBAUM: So, the Europeans know this is coming, and they've known for a long time. They have been almost -- it's almost as if they're in a kind of sleep walking, you know, it can't really happen, we don't really think it will happen. It's slowly beginning to dawn on them that this could be real.

I mean remember that U.S. support for -- sorry, European support for Ukraine is actually about the same size as American support for Ukraine. It comes in different forms. Some of it is financial rather than military. And so it's not as if Europe has been doing nothing, but it's still, you know, it's still the - the, you know, the bulk of the ammunition, much of the military equipment and aid, much of the intelligence is still coming from the U.S. because that's how NATO was set up. That's how the - you know, that's how - that's how - that was how it was -- has worked from the beginning. And I don't think they're really ready.

You know, remember that U.S. allies in Asia are also watching this with the same - same amount of trepidation. I mean if - if Trump would abandon Ukraine, would he save Taiwan? Would he save South Korea? You know, these are - these will immediately, everywhere in the world where the U.S. has any interest or any stakes - and, by the way, this is - this is true, you know, even - even if Trump loses if the Republicans refuse to give aid to Ukraine, this could also - this could have a similar effect.

HARLOW: Yes.

APPLEBAUM: Everywhere around the world will be -- there will be an immediate crisis, an immediate sense. The U.S. isn't coming, we need to adjust and change our policies.

HARLOW: This on the same morning that the budget director just said, we're basically out of money for Ukraine if you don't reauthorize more funding. I think, in her words, "there's no magical pot of funding available."

Anne Applebaum, your article is really important. The whole - the whole - the whole magazine that comes out today, people should look at it. Thank you very much.

APPLEBAUM: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Well, a disturbing new report says air traffic controllers were drinking, sleeping and doing drugs on the job. We're going to bring you more ahead. APPLEBAUM: This just in to CNN. Border talks hitting a major snag,

keeping aid for Israel and Ukraine in limbo. We'll have the latest from The Hill, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:38:31]

HARLOW: All right, this just in to CNN. Senate negotiations about the border hitting a major snag as Democrats claim Republicans were pushing for policies that too closely resembled the House's immigration bill, that was HR-2. This really crucial impasse in negotiations leaves aid to Ukraine and Israel that have been tied to the border in limbo.

Lauren Fox on Capitol Hill, good morning.

This is not promising for what some Republican senators, like James Lankford and Senator Rounds thought they could get done by the end of the year.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and this has been a major sticking point for moving forward in the House or Senate with Ukraine aid. As you remember, the House speaker made very clear last week when he met with Republican senators that he needed robust border policy changes in order to move forward in the House of Representatives with additional aid for Ukraine.

And, Poppy, the sticking points really are the fact that Democrats are arguing that Republicans are pushing for policy that too closely resembles the House passed immigration bill earlier this year, arguing that this policy isn't really a negotiation at this point. They're saying that Republicans just want to have it their way.

There were supposed to be talks over the weekend, but the last time this group had a conversation in full was on Friday night. After that it became clear, according to Democratic sources, that Republicans were just pushing too hard for pieces of HR-2.

[08:40:01]

And my sources said that you can never say never in the Senate. Oftentimes with these tense negotiations things will break down before talks get better again.

But, for now, things are really at an impasse. And the reason this is so important is you saw that letter earlier from OMB arguing that there's no secret pot of money, there's nothing left for Ukraine, and that's why it's so critical for Congress to pass more funding by the end of the year. Right now that's looking seriously in doubt, Poppy.

HARLOW: OK. Lauren Fox, thanks for the reporting.

MATTINGLY: Well, a new report in "The New York Times" details a pattern of, quote, "glaring vulnerabilities" in America's air traffic controller system. This includes controllers drinking on the job, sleeping on the job, and drug use. The workforce has gotten dramatically smaller in the last 11 years, due in part to high turnover and lack of funding.

Now, "The Times" reports that, quote, "some controllers say they fear that a deadly crash is inevitable."

CNN's Pete Muntean is following this story for us and joins us now.

This is an ominous and frankly scary story to read. What do you know?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, this morning the FAA is trying to debunk that story and saying it's really not reflective of the high standard of safety in the national airspace system. But the bottom line is something that we have been reporting for months, the air traffic control system is stretched to the limit. Controllers say they are over worked and under staffed. And it was highlighted just again last week in a massive release of data from the National Transportation Safety Board about a close call in Austin in February. The air traffic controller in that case said he was working an overtime shift on a six-day week. In that incident, a landing FedEx flight, a departing Southwest flight came within about 100 feet of colliding on the runway. It was the pilots of the FedEx flight that saved the day.

Now, the air traffic control staffing system is a huge issue that the FAA is scrambling to fix. The Department of Transportation says that it is 3,000 workers short. And when you factor in retirements and attrition, the workforce has grown by only single digits. A net gain of only six employees.

Now, former air traffic controller union head Paul Rinaldi tells me there is no doubt that workers are stressed.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL RINALDI, PRESIDENT EMERITUS, NATIONAL AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS ASSOCIATION: The shortage is a big problem. And the fact that the secretary has come out and said we're 3,000 short, and if you look at how long it takes to get a certified air traffic controller from the academy to certified in that facility could take two to three years. And you look at the attrition rates that we're looking at. It's going to be many, many years to catch up unless they do something different.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MUNTEAN: New FAA Administrator Mike Whitaker says his focus is on getting new controllers through its training academy without lowering standards.

When it comes to controllers drinking, sleeping and using, the FAA says it's dealt with those problems on a case-by-case basis. The union of controllers insists the group is extremely professional. The controllers I know take the job extremely seriously. But they say the staffing problems need to change yesterday. Phil. Poppy.

HARLOW: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Yes. And, Pete, you've done a ton of reporting on this over the course of the last couple of months. Keep us posted. Thank you.

MUNTEAN: Any time.

HARLOW: So, here are the "5 Things" to know this morning.

The Supreme Court, in just a couple hours, will hear arguments today over a $6 billion bankruptcy plan for the maker of oxycontin. The justices will determine whether that legal shield that bankruptcy provides can extend to Perdue's owners, the Sackler family.

MATTINGLY: Well, the (INAUDIBLE) admission of Israel hosting a special session at the U.N. today to address sexual and gender-based violence in the October 7th Hamas attack.

HARLOW: Officials say the USS Carney shot down at least three drones in the Red Sea on Sunday. Those drones part of four attacks launched by Iranian-backed Houthi rebels in Yemen.

MATTINGLY: And the director of Office of Management and Budget issuing a stark warning to Congress, just heard about it from Lauren Fox, the U.S. will, quote, "kneecap Ukraine" if funding is not approved. Shalanda Young says cutting off the flow of U.S. weapons and equipment will put the gains in Ukraine - that Ukraine has made at risk.

HARLOW: The Los Angeles man suspected of fatally shooting three men experiencing homelessness is expected to appear in court today. Jared Powell was arrested Wednesday in connection with another deadly shooting of a man during a robbery.

There are the "5 Things" to know this Monday morning. Don't forget to download the "5 Things" podcast.

Well ahead, it may very well go down in history as one of the greatest snubs in sports history. Florida State University has been shut out of the college football playoff despite an undefeated season. We will bring you all the reactions ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:48:12]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Heartbroken. Devastated. And I'm sure there is a lot of anger in Tallahassee as a result of this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: It was an unprecedented moment in college football. Florida State, you just saw them there, they're not going to be in the playoffs despite an undefeated season. The Seminoles won their conference, the ACC, with a win over Louisville on Saturday. According to the selection committee's chairman, Boo Corrigan, a, quote, "really big factor" was the team would be without their star quarterback Jordan Travis, who broke his leg last month.

HARLOW: Florida State head coach Mike Norvell did not mince words. Quote, "I am disgusted and infuriated with the committee's decision." He added, quote, "a team that overcame tremendous adversity and found a way to win doing whatever it took on the field was cheated today. It's a sad day for college football."

Undefeated Washington and Michigan will compete, as will one loss teams Alabama and Texas. The Seminoles will play Georgia in the Orange Bowl.

And Cari Champion, CNN contributor, is at the table with us.

Good morning.

CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Good morning. Good to be here in person.

HARLOW: I have decided how much I care about this story after Phil's emails to me yesterday. No, seriously. For people who woke up to this headline and were like, what, I don't get it.

CHAMPION: Yes.

HARLOW: How did this happen and why does it matter?

CHAMPION: Well, it matters for a few reasons, right, because the essence of sports is, if you win, you get to move on.

HARLOW: Yes.

CHAMPION: You lose, you go home. We have an undefeated team that doesn't get to play in the game that matters the most. It's unheard of.

The college football playoff system is supposed to reward the best and the most deserving. So, let me ask you this, who should be in, the most deserving or the best team? When you hear that, what do you think, Poppy?

HARLOW: They're not the same thing?

CHAMPION: Shouldn't they be? And this is the first time, in this particular era, in this system in which it works with the college football playoff system, the most deserving and the best don't match. I'm going to be honest, I - I am not a fan of either team.

[08:50:02]

I don't have - I don't have a dog at all in this race. But Alabama is the better team. But Florida State is the most deserving. And the committee had to make that choice. MATTINGLY: And it's a - it's an almost impossible choice to make. Someone was going to be really angry no matter what. I agree having watched Alabama this weekend, they're pretty darn good.

CHAMPION: You were there.

MATTINGLY: I was there.

HARLOW: I think Kaitlan Collins is probably watching.

MATTINGLY: Kaitlan Collins also agrees. We've got some breaking news on that as well.

CHAMPION: I think - I think - I think she does.

MATTINGLY: But I think what's striking to me is, first off, I'm an Ohio State guy. In 2014 we lost our starting quarterback and guess who won the national championship, Ohio State. It was a really great story. Granted they beat Wisconsin by 59 points to get to the championship game. Do we want to keep going through the history of this?

HARLOW: We're good, Phil.

MATTINGLY: Is that not - is that not what this is for?

I think the tough thing for me was reading the Jordan Travis tweet.

HARLOW: Yes.

MATTINGLY: He's the quarterback, broke his leg, had a sensational season, a sensational career since he transferred to Florida State, saying, quote, "devastated. Heartbroken. In so much disbelief right now. I wish my leg broke earlier in the season so y'all could see this team is much more than the quarterback. I thought results matter."

CHAMPION: Results should matter. I - you know what, here's the thing. This is the last year of the four-team playoff. Next year it goes to 12. But I really will be honest with you, that committee -- that committee of people who sat in the room in Grapevine, Texas, decided ratings matter most. This is --

MATTINGLY: Expand on that. I think it's an important point.

CHAMPION: This is not so much about the most deserving team. They felt that without Jordan, that they weren't going to be able to look as good on television, wouldn't be able to have that many ratings. I honestly believe that is exactly why they picked Alabama.

Alabama is a powerhouse. The SEC, the conference in which they are in is arguably the best that there is in college football, and so is Nick Saban in terms of a coach. I felt like if there was another coach perhaps that wasn't as decorated, they wouldn't have made it in.

Alabama absolutely is the best team and the better team because Michigan, now knowing that they have to face Alabama, feels away -- MATTINGLY: Did you watch that on the video -- the video of their team

watching the announcement.

CHAMPION: Oh, yes, they're not, oh, not Florida State? But the reality is, is that this isn't fair. It is a -- they were robbed in plain sight. And if I was Coach Norville, I'd be disgusted as well.

HARLOW: I know we go to 12 next year, so this won't be -- this can't happen again.

CHAMPION: Yes. Yes.

HARLOW: But people are mad. Rick Scott tweeting his disapproval. Democratic Congressman Jared Moskowitz of Florida also going as far as to say he'll introduce a resolution to condemn the decision. I think he's serious.

CHAMPION: He's serious. He's serious.

HARLOW: I think he's serious.

CHAMPION: He's serious. What -

HARLOW: Can the way these are decided change because it's so subjective?

CHAMPION: It is subjective and I'm glad you said that. That's all it is at the end of the day. I wish I could tell you that it's fair, but it's subjective. It's four or five people sitting in a room who have the most influence who decide, this is what's going to happen. These are the people that we care the most about.

And I - and if we're just honest, just on a pure eye test, it's going to be subjective. Florida State, undefeated. They should definitely be there. I can't lie about that. But I do agree that the team is different without their quarterback. They are not as exciting. They're not as fun or flashy. And I'm sorry, folks, this is show business with the introduction of NIL, name, image and likeness, these kids are making millions of dollars.

HARLOW: Yes, money.

CHAMPION: And this is a business. I know we thought it was amateurs, but this is a business. And they made it clear -

HARLOW: You know it's - we see character in the worst moments, right?

CHAMPION: This is one of these moments.

HARLOW: And I think Jordan Travis showed his character through and through and through. And I'm a huge fan of his after learning who he was yesterday.

MATTINGLY: I was very impressed. You got really into this story. And now we're just going to talk about this forever (ph) -

HARLOW: I'm really on it.

CHAMPION: So, your -- on your interest meter you're like at a - you're like at --

HARLOW: I'm at like a ten.

MATTINGLY: Oh, no, no, when Poppy goes in, she goes - she goes all in.

CHAMPION: Really?

MATTINGLY: (INAUDIBLE).

HARLOW: Well, I had to Google every line of Mattingly's email yesterday and now I'm into it. And now I'm into it.

MATTINGLY: And now we're here. And we're great (ph).

CHAMPION: Do you think it's fair, or do you - do you even - you're just like -

HARLOW: No, I'm on team you on this one.

CHAMPION: Yes, you get it. You get it.

HARLOW: But then I want Alabama for Kaitlan and -

CHAMPION: I know, we -

HARLOW: Not Michigan for Phil and it's all - it's all - it's a lot of emotions right now.

CHAMPION: I know. I know. Nobody -

MATTINGLY: Alabama needs help with more fans. Alabama needs more fans.

CHAMPION: Yes. It's a lot of emotions and everyone's in the middle.

MATTINGLY: That's what they need. They really - so humble and subtle about their talents.

HARLOW: Thank you, Cari.

MATTINGLY: Thank you. Awesome to have you here.

CHAMPION: Thank you, guys, for having me. Yes.

MATTINGLY: New this morning, a former Harvard disinformation researcher says she was pushed out of her job after the university faced pressure from Facebook. Why she is claiming Harvard wanted to protect its relationship with Mark Zuckerberg. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:58:07]

HARLOW: New this morning, a former Harvard researcher on online disinformation claims she was pushed out of her job after the university faced pressure from Facebook, now Meta. In a disclosure sent to Harvard last week and made public this morning, Joan Donovan says the university began restricting her work after the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, which is run by Mark Zuckerberg and his wife, Dr. Priscilla Chan, donated $500 million to Harvard.

Our correspondent, Donie O'Sullivan, all over this story and covering it now.

It's quite an accusation. Lay it out for us.

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed. This is really serious.

HARLOW: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: And Dr. Joan Donovan is pretty much one of the biggest names in this really important space of disinformation research, and especially as we go into an election year next year, really just how these social media platforms are affecting our lives, our perception of reality and our perception of politics.

So, the timeline is like this. She said that there are former Facebook people and influential people at Facebook who are -- have different connections to Harvard, whether they were graduates or involved in the university in some way and, of course, there's this half a billion dollars from the Zuckerberg Chan Foundation which she says essentially got her forced out of the university and shut her research down.

It should -- we should, of course, mention that her research was, of course, quite critical of Facebook.

MATTINGLY: Has there been a response? I mean Facebook usually will be very aggressive in these moments. Facebook, Harvard, are they saying anything?

O'SULLIVAN: So, no word back from Meta this morning, Facebook's parent company. We are also still waiting to hear back from Harvard. Plus, at "The Washington Post," who first broke this story earlier this morning, Harvard telling them that they -- essentially the accusations here are totally false. That funders, donors, don't have a say essentially in these academic research pursuits.

But just pulling back here for a second, I will just say, Joan, when she left Harvard, or as she says she was pushed out of Harvard last year, that raised a lot of concerns in the community that monitors this sort of stuff, disinformation, because in their view they're getting attacked on all sides, right?

[09:00:12]

They are getting pushed from a Republican House of Representatives. Researchers in this space are getting sued. It's all kind of setting up a space, as we go into 2024, where people who are calling out disinformation in these campaigns in the past could be muzzled.

HARLOW: Yes. When, by the way, some of these platforms are allowing more of that disinformation back on their platforms.

O'SULLIVAN: A lot more of it. A lot more of it.

HARLOW: Thank you, Donie.

O'SULLIVAN: Thank.

HARLOW: Thanks.

And thanks for joining us this morning.

MATTINGLY: "CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right now.

HARLOW: Thank you, guys.